Head blow vs strangulation

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I wonder if you are the only person to think this, or are you simply defending your position.

UkGuy,
My position is that if there had been manual strangulation, Dr. Meyer would have mentioned this in his final diagnosis.
Bur he only mentioned ligature strangulation, therefore it is logical to assume that when Dr. Meyer listed asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death, this refers to the ligature strangulation.

Now your assumption may be correct, but I doubt it, due to the lack of internal damage to JonBenet's neck structures and muscle, which was cross-sectioned by Coroner Meyer and itemised in his report.

But wouldn't manual strangulation have done precisely that: damaged JB's larynx?

 

[Toltec]

Are the coroner's notes on the internet too? Or do we only know about them through secondary sources?

No they are not....they have never been released.

The wiping down of JonBenet included wiping the labia...something only a female would do. Having said that, it is my belief that Patsy wiped JonBenet.

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy,
My position is that if there had been manual strangulation, Dr. Meyer would have mentioned this in his final diagnosis.
Bur he only mentioned ligature strangulation, therefore it is logical to assume that when Dr. Meyer listed asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death, this refers to the ligature strangulation.
But wouldn't manual strangulation have done precisely that: damaged JB's larynx?

rashomon,
Because you can make a logical assumption does not mean that its the only one available, never mind the correct one.

We may never know, unless Coroner Meyer releases his notes, or there is a court case.

I still maintain that asphyxia by strangulation is ambiguous, and is open to more than one interpretation, particularly when we now know that there was crime-scene staging involved.

Your question regarding asphyxiation cuts both ways, and is more pertinent with respect to a ligature strangulation!

.

 

[rashomon]

No they are not....they have never been released.

The wiping down of JonBenet included wiping the labia...something only a female would do. Having said that, it is my belief that Patsy wiped JonBenet.

What do you think Patsy wiped off, Toltec?

 

[rashomon]

UkGuy, I took this part of your post over here because of the manual strangulation discussion we have had on this thread:

Regarding the marks to the left and right lying underneath the ligature I have referred to these as compressed abrasion marks, since these are these are nearly always seen when a piece of clothing has been employed in manually strangling someone, otherwise each ligature leaves its own notable furrow!

But the autopsy report merely says 'abrasion'.
Also, if you look at the abrasion in this picture, it looks far less distinct, almost like nothing really:

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg
Even the red triangular mark you can see on the right, which at first sight looks like a bad wound, is only an abrasion (see the autopsy report).

 

[Toltec]

What do you think Patsy wiped off, Toltec?

It is obvious from the pants found in JonBenet's bathroom that she was soiled. In one of my many theories, Patsy discovered during their midnight toilet trip that JonBenet had soiled herself.

She was wiped down by Patsy pre or post-mortem.

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy, I took this part of your post over here because of the manual strangulation discussion we have had on this thread:
But the autopsy report merely says 'abrasion'.
Also, if you look at the abrasion in this picture, it looks far less distinct, almost like nothing really:

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg
Even the red triangular mark you can see on the right, which at first sight looks like a bad wound, is only an abrasion (see the autopsy report).

rashomon,

I fail to understand the point you are seeking to make?

If you compress someone around the neck with a bra, stockings, scarve, or shirt collar etc, the resulting struggle, normally leaves these red colored abrasions, generically they are termed material compression abrasions.

The use of a ligature tends to result in an abraded, contused pattern, with each ligature material leaving a particular identifiable patterned furrow e.g. electrical wire, thick rope, nylon cord, all leave different patterns.

Also importantly nearly always, ligature furrows are asymmetric or one sided which results from the pressure applied by the dominant hand of the predator. That is although the furrow is circumferential its never perfectly so, due to the upward pressure, either the left or the right side is abraded more than the other, which makes viewing such pictures gruesome.

Yet the circumferential furrow on JonBenet's neck is perfectly circular and symmetric.

We know this, I know that many posters here know this, also Coroner Meyer knows this, he is also aware of the material compression abrasions.

Yet as you state when Coroner Meyer lists the cause of death as asphyxia by strangulation you feel free to infer he means asphyxia by ligature strangulation whereas he may simply be being ambiguous, knowing full well there has been staging involved?


.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

I fail to understand the point you are seeking to make?

If you compress someone around the neck with a bra, stockings, scarve, or shirt collar etc, the resulting struggle, normally leaves these red colored abrasions, generically they are termed material compression abrasions.

UkGuy,

but wasn't your theory that JB had been manually strangled before, the perp using only his hands? I think when someone is manually strangled, more damage will be done than a mere abrasion. There should be contusions and bruising.
Or do you mean someone yanked JB around in anger first, twisting her turtleneck? But would this have killed her?

Also importantly nearly always, ligature furrows are asymmetric or one sided which results from the pressure applied by the dominant hand of the predator. That is although the furrow is circumferential its never perfectly so, due to the upward pressure, either the left or the right side is abraded more than the other, which makes viewing such pictures gruesome.

Yet the circumferential furrow on JonBenet's neck is perfectly circular and symmetric.

We know this, I know that many posters here know this, also Coroner Meyer knows this, he is also aware of the material compression abrasions.

Yet as you state when Coroner Meyer lists the cause of death as asphyxia by strangulation you feel free to infer he means asphyxia by ligature strangulation whereas he may simply be being ambiguous, knowing full well there has been staging involved?

I doubt that Dr. Meyer saw it as a staged scene, so shortly after the crime. He is also no criminal investigator. He saw a ligature around JB's neck and noted signs of asphyxiation (petechiae). His final diagnosis was verbatim 'ligature strangulation'.

The perfectly circumferential ligature around JB's neck points to it being applied to an inert and unresisiting body. But even if it was done 'only' for staging purposes, the ligature could have been something like the 'last straw' which finally cut off JB's (who was in the process of dying from the head injury) oxygen supply.

 

[Solace]

Solace,
JonBenet has multiple contusions and abrasions on her body, an accidental rage slap simply does not account for these injuries, look closely at the contusion on the lower left of this picture: http://zyberzoom.com/face1.jpg, thats no accident, her skull has a severe dpressed fracture, this alone may have killed her, look closely at the compressed abrasion marks on the lower left and lower right of her neck: http://zyberzoom.com/neck72.jpg, note how there is a space between them e.g. they do not represent a circumferential ligature marking, imo these are the result of a manual strangulation, thats no accident, even if it didn't kill her? Then there is the fact that she was sexually assaulted prior to her death and chronically preceding it, none of this is accidental!

.

UK, I looked at both pictures and I understand your reasoning in the second picture, BUT, please help me with the first. What contusion are you talking about. Are you talking about the round black mark that looks like a stun gun mark?

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy,

but wasn't your theory that JB had been manually strangled before, the perp using only his hands? I think when someone is manually strangled, more damage will be done than a mere abrasion. There should be contusions and bruising.
Or do you mean someone yanked JB around in anger first, twisting her turtleneck? But would this have killed her?

I doubt that Dr. Meyer saw it as a staged scene, so shortly after the crime. He is also no criminal investigator. He saw a ligature around JB's neck and noted signs of asphyxiation (petechiae). His final diagnosis was verbatim 'ligature strangulation'.

The perfectly circumferential ligature around JB's neck points to it being applied to an inert and unresisiting body. But even if it was done 'only' for staging purposes, the ligature could have been something like the 'last straw' which finally cut off JB's (who was in the process of dying from the head injury) oxygen supply.

rashomon,

but wasn't your theory that JB had been manually strangled before, the perp using only his hands?

Yes, this was to explain the abrasions lying beneath the ligature, manually is to distinguish between this and any ligature applied. Its still possible that she was manually strangled by hands only, but a combination of clothing and hands produces similar effects.

It may have killed her, or the whack on her head did, or a combination of both ?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UK, I looked at both pictures and I understand your reasoning in the second picture, BUT, please help me with the first. What contusion are you talking about. Are you talking about the round black mark that looks like a stun gun mark?

Solace,

Yes what others term a stun-gun mark, actually looks more like a post-mortem contusion, note the color of the mark, this is what post-mortem marks look like since the blood has changed chemically to produce this dark color, use a search engine to look for post-mortem marks.

I know its itemised as an abrasion, but imo, it looks more like a post-mortem injury, as if someone whacked JonBenet on her legs head etc after she was dead, maybe in anger, or to effect some kind of staging?


.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Yes what others term a stun-gun mark, actually looks more like a post-mortem contusion, note the color of the mark, this is what post-mortem marks look like since the blood has changed chemically to produce this dark color, use a search engine to look for post-mortem marks.

I know its itemised as an abrasion, but imo, it looks more like a post-mortem injury, as if someone whacked JonBenet on her legs head etc after she was dead, maybe in anger, or to effect some kind of staging?


.

UK, that is such a tiny tiny abrasion. I am surprised that you would think this is from being "whacked". You think this is an injury after she died?

 

[UKGuy]

UK, that is such a tiny tiny abrasion. I am surprised that you would think this is from being "whacked". You think this is an injury after she died?

Solace,

If we are talking about the dark round mark then its a significant injury, so much so some people consider it the result of a stun-gun.

.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

If we are talking about the dark round mark then its a significant injury, so much so some people consider it the result of a stun-gun.

.

We are talking about the same thing. But the dark round "spot" looks far from an injury where one would have been hit or kicked or whacked. I am surprised that you would get that from this picture. If anything, it looks like a burn or an injury from some sort of metal but it does not look like she was hit with a hand there. And since the knot of the garrotte is so close in the picture, it almost looks like the knot itself could have done it when it was being twisted.

Not saying it is, just saying it looks more like an injury from the twisting of a knot than be "whacked".

 

[JusticeSeekerE]

I know that there has been some discussion about JB being hit with a flashlight ... so I am just curious ... To me it would make more sense for a parent to hit her with bat or a golf club or a lamp or something handy (if we are looking at rage?). Do we know where the flash light was originally? Seems to me if we are look at some sort of act of rage on either parent's part or even at an accident of some kind we would be looking for some kind of object that would have been handy not something that you would go searching for and then return with. What would a parent be doing walking around their own house with a flashlight anyway? I don't know about you, but I don't need any light to walk around my house at night because I know where everything is, and if I did need some light I wouldn't hunt down a flash light I would simply flip on the light.

Now, a faucet in the bath tub makes a little more sense to me honestly, but still, with the head injury she substained I believe that John or Patsy would have literally had to have thrown her in the tub. The blow was to the side of her head ... another part of her body would have had to have come into contact with the tub before her head did and there were no other marks on her body in an area that would have hit the tub. Of course, this also holds no water, if she was actually in tub. Then someone could have grabbed her by her hair and forced her into the faucet. But why would she be in tub that late at night or that early in the morning? Had she wet the bed? One thing I do want to know ... I have heard that there was urine in the hallway in front of the wine cellar. Is this true? If so then why would her parents put her urine stained panties and pants back her? If she had wet the bed and was killed in rage then why is there urine in the basement? You would think that after wetting the bed she wouldn't have much urine in her to lose. Also, why didn't the Ramsey's wash the sheets? They managed to get rid of the rope and tape ... and cover everything else up nicely, so with the time they would have had after killing her why didn't they wash the sheets and put them back on and ruffle them up a little? Someone mentioned something about traces of a chemical in healthy urine was found on her sheets ... cannot remember who it was and now that I am looking for that post I cannot find it (the chemical started with a C I think)! Is that chemical similar to DNA or blood? Can it survive the washing machine? As far as hitting her head or being thrown into the sink ... I have to keep in mind her height. If it was the sink, we aren't looking at an accident with Burke. A parent would have had had to have done that. In order to have had full access to the sink on her own she would have had to have a step stool. She wouldn't have been tall enough to have been pushed into the sink she would have had to have been thrown. If this were the case where are the other injuries? When children fall or are thrown they try to catch themselves which leads to other injuries. If she was thrown directly on her head would we not also be looking for a neck injury? I just find it hard to believe that she could have been thrown and have no other injuries.

I agree the flashlight could have been left as an element of staging and may or may not have been used in the actual crime .... If this is the case then they did something with the actual weapon used IMO. I don't think she was thrown. If she was hit with something out of rage they disregarded it or removed along with the access tape and rope.

 

[Toltec]

I know that there has been some discussion about JB being hit with a flashlight ... so I am just curious ... To me it would make more sense for a parent to hit her with bat or a golf club or a lamp or something handy (if we are looking at rage?). Do we know where the flash light was originally? Seems to me if we are look at some sort of act of rage on either parent's part or even at an accident of some kind we would be looking for some kind of object that would have been handy not something that you would go searching for and then return with. What would a parent be doing walking around their own house with a flashlight anyway? I don't know about you, but I don't need any light to walk around my house at night because I know where everything is, and if I did need some light I wouldn't hunt down a flash light I would simply flip on the light.

Now, a faucet in the bath tub makes a little more sense to me honestly, but still, with the head injury she substained I believe that John or Patsy would have literally had to have thrown her in the tub. The blow was to the side of her head ... another part of her body would have had to have come into contact with the tub before her head did and there were no other marks on her body in an area that would have hit the tub. Of course, this also holds no water, if she was actually in tub. Then someone could have grabbed her by her hair and forced her into the faucet. But why would she be in tub that late at night or that early in the morning? Had she wet the bed? One thing I do want to know ... I have heard that there was urine in the hallway in front of the wine cellar. Is this true? If so then why would her parents put her urine stained panties and pants back her? If she had wet the bed and was killed in rage then why is there urine in the basement? You would think that after wetting the bed she wouldn't have much urine in her to lose. Also, why didn't the Ramsey's wash the sheets? They managed to get rid of the rope and tape ... and cover everything else up nicely, so with the time they would have had after killing her why didn't they wash the sheets and put them back on and ruffle them up a little? Someone mentioned something about traces of a chemical in healthy urine was found on her sheets ... cannot remember who it was and now that I am looking for that post I cannot find it (the chemical started with a C I think)! Is that chemical similar to DNA or blood? Can it survive the washing machine? As far as hitting her head or being thrown into the sink ... I have to keep in mind her height. If it was the sink, we aren't looking at an accident with Burke. A parent would have had had to have done that. In order to have had full access to the sink on her own she would have had to have a step stool. She wouldn't have been tall enough to have been pushed into the sink she would have had to have been thrown. If this were the case where are the other injuries? When children fall or are thrown they try to catch themselves which leads to other injuries. If she was thrown directly on her head would we not also be looking for a neck injury? I just find it hard to believe that she could have been thrown and have no other injuries.

I agree the flashlight could have been left as an element of staging and may or may not have been used in the actual crime .... If this is the case then they did something with the actual weapon used IMO. I don't think she was thrown. If she was hit with something out of rage they disregarded it or removed along with the access tape and rope.

One of my theories is that Patsy made an attempt to bathe JonBenet that night because she discovered that JonBenet had soiled herself. They were getting on a plane early the next morning. From the evidence in the bathroom, soiled pants, crumpled up red turtleneck...

JonBenet did not want to bathe and a struggle ensued. Patsy picks up the flashlight and hits JonBenet over the head with it....or slams her in the bathtub and she hits her head on the faucet.

 

[JMO8778]

One of my theories is that Patsy made an attempt to bathe JonBenet that night because she discovered that JonBenet had soiled herself. They were getting on a plane early the next morning. From the evidence in the bathroom, soiled pants, crumpled up red turtleneck...

JonBenet did not want to bathe and a struggle ensued. Patsy picks up the flashlight and hits JonBenet over the head with it....or slams her in the bathtub and she hits her head on the faucet.

what about into a bathroom cabinet? I haven't noticed what type handles were on there..were they the round kind of knobs,or the long handle kind? could a slam head-first into that produce that kind of head wound?

 

[JMO8778]

I know that there has been some discussion about JB being hit with a flashlight ... so I am just curious ... To me it would make more sense for a parent to hit her with bat or a golf club or a lamp or something handy (if we are looking at rage?). Do we know where the flash light was originally? Seems to me if we are look at some sort of act of rage on either parent's part or even at an accident of some kind we would be looking for some kind of object that would have been handy not something that you would go searching for and then return with. What would a parent be doing walking around their own house with a flashlight anyway? I don't know about you, but I don't need any light to walk around my house at night because I know where everything is, and if I did need some light I wouldn't hunt down a flash light I would simply flip on the light.

Now, a faucet in the bath tub makes a little more sense to me honestly, but still, with the head injury she substained I believe that John or Patsy would have literally had to have thrown her in the tub. The blow was to the side of her head ... another part of her body would have had to have come into contact with the tub before her head did and there were no other marks on her body in an area that would have hit the tub. Of course, this also holds no water, if she was actually in tub. Then someone could have grabbed her by her hair and forced her into the faucet. But why would she be in tub that late at night or that early in the morning? Had she wet the bed? One thing I do want to know ... I have heard that there was urine in the hallway in front of the wine cellar. Is this true? If so then why would her parents put her urine stained panties and pants back her? If she had wet the bed and was killed in rage then why is there urine in the basement? You would think that after wetting the bed she wouldn't have much urine in her to lose. Also, why didn't the Ramsey's wash the sheets? They managed to get rid of the rope and tape ... and cover everything else up nicely, so with the time they would have had after killing her why didn't they wash the sheets and put them back on and ruffle them up a little? Someone mentioned something about traces of a chemical in healthy urine was found on her sheets ... cannot remember who it was and now that I am looking for that post I cannot find it (the chemical started with a C I think)! Is that chemical similar to DNA or blood? Can it survive the washing machine? As far as hitting her head or being thrown into the sink ... I have to keep in mind her height. If it was the sink, we aren't looking at an accident with Burke. A parent would have had had to have done that. In order to have had full access to the sink on her own she would have had to have a step stool. She wouldn't have been tall enough to have been pushed into the sink she would have had to have been thrown. If this were the case where are the other injuries? When children fall or are thrown they try to catch themselves which leads to other injuries. If she was thrown directly on her head would we not also be looking for a neck injury? I just find it hard to believe that she could have been thrown and have no other injuries.

I agree the flashlight could have been left as an element of staging and may or may not have been used in the actual crime .... If this is the case then they did something with the actual weapon used IMO. I don't think she was thrown. If she was hit with something out of rage they disregarded it or removed along with the access tape and rope.

it's creatinine.
as far as the flashlight..the one found was supposedly kept in the kitchen drawer,so PR could have taken it up to JB's room,on her way to bed.
but I have to wonder if she kept one beside her bed?if so,was that one still there?
I think the FL was too big and heavy to remove,unlike the underwear and paintbrush handle.I think perhaps those got put into some of the stuffed animals PP retrieved on her raid,but the FL was too big to hide so easily.

 

[rashomon]

UK, that is such a tiny tiny abrasion. I am surprised that you would think this is from being "whacked". You think this is an injury after she died?

It is indeed only a small abrasion. If memory serves, Dr. Meyer listed it as an abrasion, not a contusion or anything which would point to a more severe wound than a mere abrasion.
A stun gun would have produced burn marks, and Dr. Meyer certainly would know how to distinguish an abrasion from a burn.

 

[UKGuy]

It is indeed only a small abrasion. If memory serves, Dr. Meyer listed it as an abrasion, not a contusion or anything which would point to a more severe wound than a mere abrasion.
A stun gun would have produced burn marks, and Dr. Meyer certainly would know how to distinguish an abrasion from a burn.

rashomon,
Well it does not look small to me. I agree it has been described as an abrasion, but it may also be a post-mortem contusion, with the dark abrasion color being caused by the lack of oxygen in the blood?

WolfmarsGirl has a theory that the stun-gun marks may have been produced by rings, which I assume would be contusions and not abrasions?


.