Head blow vs strangulation

[JMO8778]

Wonder why the Rams don't have a reward anymore,and NE does.:waitasec:

 

[rashomon]

Whatever hit her or she hit had to be sharp enough to crush in a small part of the skull and yet not so sharp it would break the skin. I can see a ceramic tile edge doing this but I have doubts about the flashlight.

Imo the left edge (from the viewer's eye) of the bathroom sink would fit perfectly the part of JB's skull bone which was 'punched out' ('punched out' is a term used on medical websites dealing with head injuries displacing skull bone):

http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm

 

[Solace]

Imo the left edge (from the viewer's eye) of the bathroom sink would fit perfectly the part of JB's skull bone which was 'punched out' ('punched out' is a term used on medical websites dealing with head injuries displacing skull bone):

http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm

Rash,

Good point. Do you know where the wound originates on her head from the left side or the right. The imprint on her neck (some believe is a thumb imprint is more to the right of her neck. I think it is possible that there might be some connection in trying to see how she was thrown, if that is the case. If she were thrown by someone and they are holding her neck with their right hand and twisting the shirt collar as they are pulling her and she gets thrown into the sink, she would hit her left side, would she not? Does the head wound originate on the left back side of her head?

 

[Credence]

There are standard similarities in all DNA. The DNA found under JonBenet's fingernails has not been conclusively matched to the DNA found in the underwear she was dressed in. They have not been able to prove that both samples of DNA came from the same person, and it's based on those basic standard similarities that the RST tries to mislead the public into believing the two samples have been conclusively matched and came from the same individual. Shame on Erin Moriarty, and the RST buffoons who gave her incorrect information.

It's true that the bloodstains don't match up. The spots on her underwear did not align with the blood on her body, when location was examined.

What's RST?

 

[rashomon]

Rash,

Good point. Do you know where the wound originates on her head from the left side or the right. The imprint on her neck (some believe is a thumb imprint is more to the right of her neck. I think it is possible that there might be some connection in trying to see how she was thrown, if that is the case. If she were thrown by someone and they are holding her neck with their right hand and twisting the shirt collar as they are pulling her and she gets thrown into the sink, she would hit her left side, would she not? Does the head wound originate on the left back side of her head?

The wound was on the right back side of the head.
Interesting also that the red mark on her front neck which looks like a really bad wound is only listed as 'abrasion' in Dr. Meyer's report.

Delmar England's opinion on that is also interesting :

Also, no skull is perfectly symmetrical. There are peaks and valleys. In
addition to the general dome shape that affects energy distribution, a peak
or valley also affect energy distribution. If contact is on a peak,
the force lines with radiate from that peak to be more concentrated and more
forceful in a lesser area than would be if contact was on a perfect globe
structure. I don't know if this was the contact situation, but either way
the shape of the piece dislodged most certainly does not have to fit the
shape of the object of contact. In fact, it is virtually certain this is
impossible. (Recall the soft clay illustration.)

 

[rashomon]

What's RST?

RST is an abbrevaiton used on the JonBenet boards for "Ramsey Spin Team" = the group of Ramsey advocates which tries to mislead the public by presenting disorted facts. This also includes the Ramseys themselves and their lawyer Wood.
And RST member is not the same as an IDI (Intruder Did It), who honestly believes an intruder was there. RSTs have a different agenda. Jameson on Webbsleuths is a classic example of an RST.
Other abbrevitations are RDI (Ramsey Did It), with the subcategories PDI, BDI, JDI.

 

[Credence]

Thank you Rashoman for the explanation. I knew what the DI's, etc. stood for but I just couldn't figure that one out.

Jameson is the one with the website you have to pay for so I don't really read the board. Occasionally when I'm looking for something her website pops up.

Wasn't Jameson friends with the Ramseys?

 

[Ames]

Wonder why the Rams don't have a reward anymore,and NE does.:waitasec:

Hmmmm...could be that they are afraid that somebody would turn THEM in and collect the money. And why offer money for an intruder that never was.

 

[JMO8778]

Hmmmm...could be that they are afraid that somebody would turn THEM in and collect the money. And why offer money for an intruder that never was.

I think so ...really ! Their reward was never over $100,000,and they were questioned about that,saying they were told more money wouldn't make any difference...
..and they were afraid to go on America's Most Wanted as well.Wonder what they were afraid of...

 

[Ames]

I think so ...really ! Their reward was never over $100,000,and they were questioned about that,saying they were told more money wouldn't make any difference...
..and they were afraid to go on America's Most Wanted as well.Wonder what they were afraid of...[/quote]


:waitasec: Yeah, I wonder??

 

[BBB167893]

Wasn't Jameson friends with the Ramseys?

That's one way of putting it!

 

[BOESP]

I'm still mulling over JonBenet's injuries. If an Intruder did this, why would they need to whack her over the head or use a ligature? JonBenet could have easily been manually strangled with much less risk of noise. There would be no need to purposely hit her head or use a ligature device. Injuries inflicted with purposeful anger would have left a lot more external damage.

I don't subscribe to the stun-gun theory but let's say an Intruder did stun her to take her downstairs. The Intruder still would have had no need to hit her on the head or use a ligature in order to kill her and a kidnapper certainly wouldn't have left her body dead or alive.

If one subscribes to the argument it was torture for enjoyment, I would counter that by saying as bad as her injuries were they don't indicate the type sadism seen in torture killings.

If the head injury didn't kill her, why not use manual strangulation instead of a ligature contraption? If it was a sexual enhancement devise other expected signs of sexual gratification are missing or at least such data isn't in the public domain.

I just can not see how this was an Intruder killing and it certainly was not a kidnapping. It has no ear marks of sadistic torture except as a staging element. What is it that Intruder theorists see that I can't see that allows them to believe an Intruder did this?

I'm grabbing the last straw here and still trying to see both sides of the issue before I come to a final conclusion and personally set this aside. At this point, I am more upset with the Boulder DA's office than the Ramseys. At least I can understand a CYA attitude if it keeps you out of jail. I can't understand a public servant blantantly ignoring and refusing to carry out their sworn duties.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm still mulling over JonBenet's injuries. If an Intruder did this, why would they need to whack her over the head or use a ligature? JonBenet could have easily been manually strangled with much less risk of noise. There would be no need to purposely hit her head or use a ligature device. Injuries inflicted with purposeful anger would have left a lot more external damage.

I don't subscribe to the stun-gun theory but let's say an Intruder did stun her to take her downstairs. The Intruder still would have had no need to hit her on the head or use a ligature in order to kill her and a kidnapper certainly wouldn't have left her body dead or alive.

If one subscribes to the argument it was torture for enjoyment, I would counter that by saying as bad as her injuries were they don't indicate the type sadism seen in torture killings.

If the head injury didn't kill her, why not use manual strangulation instead of a ligature contraption? If it was a sexual enhancement devise other expected signs of sexual gratification are missing or at least such data isn't in the public domain.

I just can not see how this was an Intruder killing and it certainly was not a kidnapping. It has no ear marks of sadistic torture except as a staging element. What is it that Intruder theorists see that I can't see that allows them to believe an Intruder did this?

I'm grabbing the last straw here and still trying to see both sides of the issue before I come to a final conclusion and personally set this aside. At this point, I am more upset with the Boulder DA's office than the Ramseys. At least I can understand a CYA attitude if it keeps you out of jail. I can't understand a public servant blantantly ignoring and refusing to carry out their sworn duties.

BOESP,

Also, intruders do not wipe down their assault victims, and redress them in oversized underwear they do not know exist, never mind where to find them!

Its an inside job, John Ramsey said so himself, and I reckon he was telling the truth!

.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Also, intruders do not wipe down their assault victims, and redress them in oversized underwear they do not know exist, never mind where to find them!

Its an inside job, John Ramsey said so himself, and I reckon he was telling the truth!

.

UKGuy, you and I totally agree on this! I recently read some older posts that suggested John was either subconsciously or purposely pointing out clues that indicated Patsy did it. I conclude either he truly thought Patsy did it or else he knew, with his help, it had been staged in a way that suggested Patsy was involved. If so, he could point to her to cover his own behind knowing the evidence and staging leaned more toward her than him. They had separate lawyers to protect separate interests, which seals the deal for me.

I sometimes wonder if John did it. I most often wonder why, if Patsy did it, she didn't call 911 to get an ambulance. It must have been an accident with questionable preceding events and that is where I still sit on the fence. It leaves only rage, molestation, or mental instability. I find it discouraging this case was not taken to court.

P.S. I believe you once said it could have been purposeful but I'd put that under mental instability, so that view is just a matter of semantics.

 

[DeeDee249]

IA. It's the events immediately preceding her death that hold the key to this whole case. The death itself was a result of that, whether it was accidentaly or not, rage, assault, knee-jerk reaction to scream head bash or whatever the awfuk truth really is.

 

[JMO8778]

UKGuy, you and I totally agree on this! I recently read some older posts that suggested John was either subconsciously or purposely pointing out clues that indicated Patsy did it. I conclude either he truly thought Patsy did it or else he knew, with his help, it had been staged in a way that suggested Patsy was involved. If so, he could point to her to cover his own behind knowing the evidence and staging leaned more toward her than him. They had separate lawyers to protect separate interests, which seals the deal for me.

me too,I had pointed out that JR took a shower,while Patsy did not...JR changed clothes,while Patsy did not..she even had on the same clothes she'd worn the night b/f at the White's,as well as JB was wearing the same shirt.I also suspect it was he who told her to call the *White's over...(the Fernie's may have just been an afterthought,or just more crowd to shield them from LE).
I also wonder if JR was getting anxious to find JB while the White's were still there(so they would notice Patsy and JB both had on the same clothes as the night b/f)..that may have been one reason he appeared anxious to Arndt.And then his comment 'this had to be an inside job', could reference to Patsy as well.
And the last thing is,JR handed LE Patsy's writing tablet,when they asked for samples of their writing.
I think it was poster Dru who pointed out that only JR's fibers were actually on JB's body...Patsy's were all *above her clothing.I wonder if it's possible JR told her to go find rope and tape,and she had them against her when either bringing them to him,or helping him w/ the staging.as far as her fibers in the tray,I think she took her jacket off and placed it there for awhile.I think the scream happened when Patsy knew for sure that JB was dead from the ligature.
If there's anything anyone else can think of that JR did to point more to Patsy and not himself,that would be interesting to hear.I may have overlooked some things.
I think Patsy was totally in a tizzy,so to speak,and she wasn't thinking at all.she was counting on JR to help get her out of it,so she did whatever he said,and trusted him completely.He may have kept her busy with some of the staging while he took a shower,and so she didn't have time to change clothes.(like wiping down the FL,for example).

I forgot one thing that I want to add here...JB was wrapped in a blanket..something a parent would do.yet that is a paradox,b/c JR knew that's how it would appear.So I think he did it that way to point to something a mother would do,along with all the other evidence he directed twds Patsy.(not that I think she's innocent,I don't).

 

[UKGuy]

me too,I had pointed out that JR took a shower,while Patsy did not...JR changed clothes,while Patsy did not..she even had on the same clothes she'd worn the night b/f at the White's,as well as JB was wearing the same shirt.I also suspect it was he who told her to call the *White's over...(the Fernie's may have just been an afterthought,or just more crowd to shield them from LE).
I also wonder if JR was getting anxious to find JB while the White's were still there(so they would notice Patsy and JB both had on the same clothes as the night b/f)..that may have been one reason he appeared anxious to Arndt.And then his comment 'this had to be an inside job', could reference to Patsy as well.
And the last thing is,JR handed LE Patsy's writing tablet,when they asked for samples of their writing.
I think it was poster Dru who pointed out that only JR's fibers were actually on JB's body...Patsy's were all *above her clothing.I wonder if it's possible JR told her to go find rope and tape,and she had them against her when either bringing them to him,or helping him w/ the staging.as far as her fibers in the tray,I think she took her jacket off and placed it there for awhile.I think the scream happened when Patsy knew for sure that JB was dead from the ligature.
If there's anything anyone else can think of that JR did to point more to Patsy and not himself,that would be interesting to hear.I may have overlooked some things.
I think Patsy was totally in a tizzy,so to speak,and she wasn't thinking at all.she was counting on JR to help get her out of it,so she did whatever he said,and trusted him completely.He may have kept her busy with some of the staging while he took a shower,and so she didn't have time to change clothes.(like wiping down the FL,for example).

JMO8778

I think it was poster Dru who pointed out that only JR's fibers were actually on JB's body...Patsy's were all *above her clothing.

Some of Patsy's fibers were alleged to have been under or on the side of the tape touching Jonbenet's mouth?

John made sure that he washed away any forensic evidence, he patently was not wanting linked to her death.


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778

Some of Patsy's fibers were alleged to have been under or on the side of the tape touching Jonbenet's mouth?

that's right,I forgot,but,it's still not under her clothing.

John made sure that he washed away any forensic evidence, he patently was not wanting linked to her death.


.

of course,do you think he kept Patsy busy while he was showering,so she wouldn't have time to change?or perhaps she just didn't feel the need to?he must have given her a reason as to why he needed to shower.so obv. it wasn't the same for her?any ideas?

 

[DeeDee249]

There will always be the thought that JR needed to wash away evidence. But the fact that he showered and she didn't is not so far out that IN AND OF ITSELF it points to guilt. I know other women (not me) who would likely get dressed, made up, etc. without showering first IF they were headed to their own home on a private plane and had to get up that early in the morning. The thought would be that they would just shower when they got where they were going, they were only going to be sitting on a plane all day.
That being said, I still do not believe PR ever undressed and went to bed that night.

 

[JMO8778]

There will always be the thought that JR needed to wash away evidence. But the fact that he showered and she didn't is not so far out that IN AND OF ITSELF it points to guilt. I know other women (not me) who would likely get dressed, made up, etc. without showering first IF they were headed to their own home on a private plane and had to get up that early in the morning. The thought would be that they would just shower when they got where they were going, they were only going to be sitting on a plane all day.
That being said, I still do not believe PR ever undressed and went to bed that night.

I would do the same Dee;and I don't believe she went to bed,either.I'm not sure JR did,either.
I'm just wondering if JR set it up that way somehow,on purpose..as in told her she didn't need a shower,do this or that,kept her busy.
It was said Patsy did have fresh makeup on,although that doesn't mean she washed her face.she could have just touched it up,like with powder,or removed it with a remover.

in thinking about it,actually I think I would at least wear a different set of clothes.it was pointed out that seemded odd for Patsy,though.