Henry Lee's comment on the Touch DNA

[Holdontoyourhat]

Maybe I am confused. They could have wrote the note AND got rid of her body and claimed kidnapping for ransom.

The idea that the kidnappers changed their minds and left her there is a much less convincing story.

Anyone who wanted to fake a kidnap for ransom, because they did not want to be associated with a child murder, would not then opt for 300 words of their own personal handwriting, when the options of 20 or so words was available. 20 words that could've even been typed or cutout.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't have a strong opinion on who was responsible for JB's death.

But assuming the R's were responsible, what reason would they have for not takings JB's body, putting her in the car and dumping her somewhere instead of leaving her in the basement?

I know the obvious advantages, but since I don't have the facts of this case down cold, I'm wondering if there are less obvious reasons based on the specific facts of the case.

(I have tried to perform searches for this topic, but keep coming up short.)

TIA!

Do you have children? Because its not like they need to throw away a bag of garbage.
Despite what happened that night, and despite what we may think of the Rs, I cannot see them simply putting her body in the car and dumping it. If they could have done so, they would have.
A body exposed to the elements, even in winter, decomposes differently- insects and small animals play a a part.
Remember that "she looks perfect" comment PR made to BR standing at her coffin? There would have been none of that of they had put her outdoors and left her to be "found" later. Make no mistake they would have never just disposed of her for good. There was always going to be that funeral- complete with major network coverage.

 

[wedavis]

Remember that "she looks perfect" comment PR made to BR standing at her coffin?

No I never read that.

Everything else you wrote makes a lot of sense, as I don't have children and therefore have a hard time putting myself in someone's shoes who does, hence the question.

Thanks.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

If you have those quotes, I'd be mighty obliged if you'd put your money where your keyboard is.

Post #405:

RDI states there was never any kidnapping.

Check.

Quote:
The murder was staged to look like kidnappers were going to kidnap JBR but murdered her instead for whatever reason.

Check, with some quibbles

Quote:
Maybe the R's thought three fake intruders would be seen as unable to kidnap a small child and would have to murder her instead.

Three?! Oh, yes...the other members of the "foreign faction." (That one's as transparent as my living room window.)

Quote:
The brutality was thrown in to steer away from the parents.

That, I think was part of it. Another part is that these were not experienced criminals. Just how much training did they have on how to kill someone in this fashion, anyway? It's not like they were Delta Force agents!

Quote:
They'd brutally bash her head,

Could have happened in a fit of anger.

Quote:
run the garrote deep into her neck,

Would YOU want the coroner to come back and say "this couldn't really have killed someone"?

Quote:
and then 'wrap her lovingly'.

Check.

Quote:
Makes no sense, but anyway...

Child murder NEVER makes sense to me, Holdon. And the day it does, I will pray for swift death.

Quote:
RDI believes then that the crime scene was deliberately staged by the parents to appear as follows:

A ransom kidnapping by three people was botched, and so they brutally murdered her instead.

or

A ransom kidnapping by three people ended with the brutal murder of JBR, when their demands were not met.

Is there a final answer for RDI here? Is one of these the actual position for RDI now, in 2008?

While I resent having to be painted into such a narrow corner (my father, were he alive, would no doubt remind me of the difference between simple and simple-minded) I guess #2 is close enough for jazz.

Why not skip all this and tell us what you really think the staging was all about. Was the stage set for a specific plot like ransom demands not met or botched kidnapping? Or was the stage set for a conflicting blend of plots? If it was a blend, was the blending deliberate or accidental?

 

[JMO8778]

You read into posts what you want to, not what was meant.
I never said or implied that LE proved PR bought the cord and tape, though they are certain she did. So am I.
What WAS proven is that cord and tape identical to those found on the body WERE sold at McGuckin's for the EXACT amount as two items found on a receipt belonging to PR.
If it walks like a duck...

...and it waddles and quacks like one,too!

 

[JMO8778]

Do you have children? Because its not like they need to throw away a bag of garbage.
Despite what happened that night, and despite what we may think of the Rs, I cannot see them simply putting her body in the car and dumping it. If they could have done so, they would have.
A body exposed to the elements, even in winter, decomposes differently- insects and small animals play a a part.
Remember that "she looks perfect" comment PR made to BR standing at her coffin? There would have been none of that of they had put her outdoors and left her to be "found" later. Make no mistake they would have never just disposed of her for good. There was always going to be that funeral- complete with major network coverage.

I have to wonder if JR could have planned to say the KN's told him where to find JB...and there she was.only he had her the whole time.so he 'retrieved' the body.(ffwd to 1pm..last part sounds familiar,doesn't it).

 

[JMO8778]

11 TOM HANEY: Do you recall purchasing duct
12 tape and cord (inaudible) in the early part of December
13 of '96?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I never used this type of
15 stuff. I use -- I would buy the multiple rolls of the
16 clear.
17 TOM HANEY: Clear tape?
18 PATSY RAMSEY: Clear tape.
19 TOM HANEY: You don't recall making a
20 purchase of either or both of those things, like I
21 said, back in early December, December 2nd of '96?
22 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
23 TOM HANEY: Do you ever recall purchasing
24 black duct tape?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
0398
1 TOM HANEY: Ever have it around the house?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember seeing any.
3 I have my tape in the little drawer by the
4 refrigerator, but it was usually masking tape and the
5 clear tape for the UPS box.
6 TOM HANEY: It seems like you -- there can't
7 be a house in the world that doesn't have duct tape
8 because it repairs everything.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I never liked it because
10 it is so gooey. Isn't it gooey?
11 TOM HANEY: Yeah.


FROM AMES: She never used "this type of stuff". No WAIT... she "never liked it, because it is so gooey". NO, wait a minute...she is not sure if its gooey or not, because she HAD NEVER USED IT. So she has to ask..."Isn't it gooey?"

IMO..she caught herself. She says she never used that sort of tape before, and never saw any lying around the house...but then says that she never liked it, because it is so gooey. Then asks...Isn't it gooey?
BECAUSE...she HAD used it before, she KNEW it was gooey, otherwise she wouldn't have said.."it is so gooey". She knew that Haney would say.."Okay, how do you know that it is gooey if you have never used it before." So, that's why she asks him..."Isn't it gooey?"....AFTER stating that she never liked it, because it is so gooey".

GOOD GRIEF

more like goofy! lol.

 

[JMO8778]

God catch, Ames. Patsy sure caught herself here and again Haney (just like all the others who interviewed the Ramseys) let it slide without pushing her into a corner. Each time I read those pitiful kid glove treatment interviews, I feel like :banghead: !!!!

I agree.I'm surprised they didn't give her crayons to color with,while patting her on the head saying 'there,there now Patsy...you don't have to answer those questions if you don't want to!!'

 

[JMO8778]

The same reason they would have for HANDWRITING more than 1500 characters, that included casual remarks beyond the scope of a kidnap for ransom?

sure it did.the Ramsey's needed it to because they put everything but the kitchen sink into that note.they needed it in hopes some poor sucker would stick to what they threw out,and the more directions they could give it...the better.

 

[JMO8778]

Anyone who wanted to fake a kidnap for ransom, because they did not want to be associated with a child murder, would not then opt for 300 words of their own personal handwriting, when the options of 20 or so words was available. 20 words that could've even been typed or cutout.

and what would they do w the mags? they were obviously short on time,due to the late time of the 911 call in accordance w their previous plans,and they didn't even have time to correct the mistakes in the so-called 'ransom note'.there was no time for kindergarten cut n paste.

 

[JMO8778]

In fairness, neither of the Rs seem like duct tape and cord people to me.

They aren't the repair it yourself type (broken window since August? -If you want to believe that one) and duct tape isn't good for wrapping X-mas gifts, or for sending parcels. The cord was too large for those uses.

The receipt doesn't specify what was bought. I don't have a problem with saying it might have been duct tape and cord, nor do I have a problem saying it may have been something else altogether.

Deedee here has a convincing argument for the cord and tape being used for art slings,and we all know Patsy painted,and perhaps had planned to take a painting w her on the plane as a gift.
Combined w those items matching the exact prices from a receipt Patsy had from purchases earlier that month,it sounds highly probable to me.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

sure it did.the Ramsey's needed it to because they put everything but the kitchen sink into that note.they needed it in hopes some poor sucker would stick to what they threw out,and the more directions they could give it...the better.

In case you haven't been paying any attention, I'm claiming that explanations like 'the kitchen sink,' or 'they changed their minds midstream,' to explain contradicting crime scene phenomenon, are essentially wildcard explanations. These explanations can handle ANY crime scene pheonomenon. Because of that, they're obviously not very credible.

 

[JMO8778]

In case you haven't been paying any attention, I'm claiming that explanations like 'the kitchen sink,' or 'they changed their minds midstream,' to explain contradicting crime scene phenomenon, are essentially wildcard explanations. These explanations can handle ANY crime scene pheonomenon. Because of that, they're obviously not very credible.

and I'm saying wildcard explanations are essentially just what the R's needed!! they didn't know who might stick,so they threw it all out there with hopes that someone or someones would.and no,this crime scene was unlike any other;no KN has ever left a 3 pg RN!

 

[BBB167893]

I don't have a strong opinion on who was responsible for JB's death.

But assuming the R's were responsible, what reason would they have for not takings JB's body, putting her in the car and dumping her somewhere instead of leaving her in the basement?

I know the obvious advantages, but since I don't have the facts of this case down cold, I'm wondering if there are less obvious reasons based on the specific facts of the case.

(I have tried to perform searches for this topic, but keep coming up short.)

TIA!

You're not the first one to ask that. But the answer is simple: too much risk of being seen. First, they had a garage door that was so loud the whole neighborhood could hear it. Second, everyone knew their car. Add to that the bit about proper burial in the ransom letter (as if someone other than a relative would CARE if she were properly buried or not). There's more, but I can't think of it just now.

 

[BBB167893]

Do you have children? Because its not like they need to throw away a bag of garbage.
Despite what happened that night, and despite what we may think of the Rs, I cannot see them simply putting her body in the car and dumping it. If they could have done so, they would have.
A body exposed to the elements, even in winter, decomposes differently- insects and small animals play a a part.
Remember that "she looks perfect" comment PR made to BR standing at her coffin? There would have been none of that of they had put her outdoors and left her to be "found" later. Make no mistake they would have never just disposed of her for good. There was always going to be that funeral- complete with major network coverage.

As I've often said: Patsy made sure JonBenet was spectacular in life. She had to be spectacular in death, as well. Just dumping her would defeat the purpose of all the redressing, etc.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

and I'm saying wildcard explanations are essentially just what the R's needed!! they didn't know who might stick,so they threw it all out there with hopes that someone or someones would.and no,this crime scene was unlike any other;no KN has ever left a 3 pg RN!

Then you would be saying that there is no unstaged IDI or RDI scenario that could incorporate most if not all of the known facts?

But I don't remember reading anywhere that staging is a known, proven fact in the JBR murder case.

 

[BBB167893]

Why not skip all this and tell us what you really think the staging was all about.

Why didn't you just ask that in the first place?

Actually, my answer is two-fold. I think it was an attempt to mislead others (not just the police; I think misleading their son and Patsy's family were more important in that regard). The second part involves giving JB a "fitting" death.

Was the stage set for a specific plot like ransom demands not met or botched kidnapping? Or was the stage set for a conflicting blend of plots?

I realize I'm seeming dense again, but are you trying to ask me if this was a premeditated crime?

If it was a blend, was the blending deliberate or accidental?

By your definition, Holdon, I'd have to go with accidental. Two highly agitated people flying by the seats of their pants doing what they think a real criminal would do.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Why didn't you just ask that in the first place?

Actually, my answer is two-fold. I think it was an attempt to mislead others (not just the police; I think misleading their son and Patsy's family were more important in that regard). The second part involves giving JB a "fitting" death.



I realize I'm seeming dense again, but are you trying to ask me if this was a premeditated crime?



By your definition, Holdon, I'd have to go with accidental. Two highly agitated people flying by the seats of their pants doing what they think a real criminal would do.

By your definition, SD, 'staging' HAS to be premeditated. They had to decide at some point to conduct some staging. They had to decide what type of staging. They had to then 'fly by the seat of their pants' and decide what further staging beyond what they had initially decided to stage. Does this make any sense to you?

 

[JMO8778]

You're not the first one to ask that. But the answer is simple: too much risk of being seen. First, they had a garage door that was so loud the whole neighborhood could hear it. Second, everyone knew their car.

but could the note have been trying to account for that? because IMO,one reason for it's length is that it's filled with one excuse after another.in this instance..'if we monitor you getting the money early'...seems to account for JR being seen outside the house early.
as far as a proper burial,could they have been worried JB wasn't going to get one,and so that showed in the note?
It's not that they necessarily would have carried through w that plan...I think the RN was written soon after the murder,in a moment of panic and terror,and getting her out of the house was a panic-driven thought.once they had a chance to think about it more,they decided to leave her in the remote WC.
I also wonder if they were going to have help getting her out,(one reason being JR trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge),but for some reason,that plan fell through.perhaps that's why the Stine's weren't called over that morning? They certainly seem to know more than they let on.

 

[Ames]

God catch, Ames. Patsy sure caught herself here and again Haney (just like all the others who interviewed the Ramseys) let it slide without pushing her into a corner. Each time I read those pitiful kid glove treatment interviews, I feel like :banghead: !!!!

Thanks! Yeah, he missed yet another, golden opportunity here.