I believe the Ramseys are innocent.

[tipper]

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/1996/feature-writing/works/smith.html

…

He had to hold her together even as he and other investigators picked her story apart, had to coax and soothe and even pray beside her, until he sensed that the time was right to confront her and try to trick her into confessing.

And he had to shield her from others, who might push too hard. Once, on Oct. 27, a state agent accused her outright. She cursed loudly and stormed away.

After that, the people who had contact with her were limited. With the assistance of Pete Logan, a warm, grandfatherly former F.B.I. agent now with the state police, Mr. Wells asked for her help in finding the boys, but did not accuse her.

The whole time, her family, her hometown and much of America were following her story, sharing her agony.

"She couldn't turn to her family, she couldn't ask for an attorney," said Mr. Wells. "She painted herself into a corner where no one could help her."

On Nov. 3, he told her, gently, that he knew she was lying, that by coincidence his own deputies had been undercover on a narcotics case at the same crossroad where she said her babies had been stolen, and at the same time, and that the officers had seen nothing. Actually there had been no such stakeout.

He prayed with her again, holding her hands, and she confessed. "I had a problem telling the lie," he said as his story unfolded in his living room the other day. "But if that's what it takes, I'd do it again."

After the confession was signed, as she sat slumped over in her chair, there was still one thing he had to know.

"Susan," he asked, "how would all this have played out?"

"I was going to write you a letter," she said, "and kill myself."

…

 

[Shylock]

To my knowledge, not one expert has said it is definite that Patsy wrote the note--quite the reverse. It is true that to an untrained eye, it appears that some of the letters resemble Patsy's printing. But not to an expert, the only opinion which counts.

Honeybee, where are you getting your information?

FOUR experts have said Patsy wrote the note: Gideon Epstein, Larry Ziegler, Cina Wong, and Tom Miller.

Six experts have said they don't think Patsy wrote the note, two of which were bought and paid for by the Ramseys--so you can throw anything they said out. ALL SIX experts however, were unable to completely exclude Patsy as the author of the note!

Maybe you should start by reading Miller's affidavit: http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/11121997milleraffidavit.htm

 

[Sprocket]

I could post this to ALL the individuals who posted that they think the Ramseys are innocent of any involvement in the death of their daughter.... but I will post it to newtv, who started this thread.

What BEHAVIOR, of the Ramseys, that you've observed, leads you to believe that their BEHAVIOR, is the behavior of an innocent parent?

Please name some specifics and a logical thought process to support those observations.

 

[Sprocket]

Honeybee, where are you getting your information?

FOUR experts have said Patsy wrote the note: Gideon Epstein, Larry Ziegler, Cina Wong, and Tom Miller.

Six experts have said they don't think Patsy wrote the note, two of which were bought and paid for by the Ramseys--so you can throw anything they said out. ALL SIX experts however, were unable to completely exclude Patsy as the author of the note!

Maybe you should start by reading Miller's affidavit: http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/11121997milleraffidavit.htm

Have you ever noticed, or had the experience, on a web site where a particular hat "disappears," and a short time later, a new hat appears who's post sound so much like the missing hat? Often the new hat is unmasked as the hat that disappeared. Thats because, no two people "speak" or write alike. I've seen this happen here on WS, but I will not stir a pot by naming hats.

Don Foster, the foremost linguist in the nation, and his conclusions:

Book Excerpt:
"We can't falsify who we are," Foster told me. "Sentence structure, word usage, and indentifying features can be a signature."

"Patsy Ramsey wrote it, he said. "Those are her words."

He explained that language is infintely diverse and that no two people use it in quite the same way. They do not have the same vocabulary, use identical spelling and punctuation, construct sentences in the same manner, read the same books, or express the same beliefs and ideas. Ingrained and unconscious habits are virtually impossible to conceal, even if a writer tries to disguise his identity, he said. "Individuals are prisoners of their own language."

Foster dissected the ransom note, explained that the wording contained intelligent and sometimes clever usage of language, and said the text suggested someone who was trying to deceive.

The documents he studied from Patsy Ramsey, in his opinion, (remember, it's HIS opinion), formed "a precise and unequivocal match" with the ransom note. He read a list of "unique matches" with the note that included such things as her penchant for inventing private acronyms, spelling habits, indentation, alliterative phrasing, metaphors, grammar, vocabulary, frequent use of exclamation points, and even the format of her handwriting on the page.

Chief Koby was so impressed that over lunch he confided in total seriousness, "You know, this is exactly what Hunter has thought from day one--that Patsy did it."

From JONBENET, Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation, by Steve Thomas pages 262, 281, 282

jmho, of course.

 

[BlueCrab]

Shylock,

Let's keep the record straight with respect to the handwriting examinations.

Darnay Hoffman's four handwriting experts were "bought and paid for" too. And they didn't have the original ransom note nor all of the exemplars to study. They worked from copies.

The CBI's six experts each had the original note and all of the exemplars to examine. They gave Patsy a 4.0 to 4.5 score, which meant it was very unlikely she wrote the note. The U.S. Secret Service examiner said it is definite that Patsy didn't write the note, and the rest of them placed her close to elimination as the writer. There were many other suspects examined who scored lower than Patsy and therefore were more likely the writer than was Patsy.

It's possible Patsy wrote the ransom note, but the probability of it is very low.

JMO

 

[DocWatson]

Shylock,

Let's keep the record straight with respect to the handwriting examinations.

Darnay Hoffman's four handwriting experts were "bought and paid for" too. And they didn't have the original ransom note nor all of the exemplars to study. They worked from copies.

The CBI's six experts each had the original note and all of the exemplars to examine. They gave Patsy a 4.0 to 4.5 score, which meant it was very unlikely she wrote the note. The U.S. Secret Service examiner said it is definite that Patsy didn't write the note, and the rest of them placed her close to elimination as the writer. There were many other suspects examined who scored lower than Patsy and therefore were more likely the writer than was Patsy.

It's possible Patsy wrote the ransom note, but the probability of it is very low.

JMO

Thank you for this well-needed, sober assessment of the FACTS in this case. Any EVEN-HANDED assessment of those facts leads to the inescapable conclusion that Patsy did not write the RN.

Likewise, any EVEN-HANDED assessment of the intruder evidence that you have repeatedly listed and that is codified and analyzed neatly in the Carnes opinion again leads to the inescapable conclusion that there was a fifth person in the house. You believe he was invited; I and most other IDI theorists believe otherwise.

To illustrate just one typical distortion of those believing the parental coverup, it is alleged that the body was wrapped carefully and lovingly, something no stranger would do. Let's get real: JBR was strangled and sexually assaulted, making her look gruesome to see, and then the body was gagged and bound, with arms over the head (!), and laid on a cold dark basement floor. Was she wrapped? Yep, but in the context of all the other features surrounding her death and abandonment, this hardly is the hallmark of loving parents.

Oh, whoops, silly me: I forgot, this was STAGING! But that's exactly the problem with PDI/JDI theories. When the evidence looks like a run-of-the-mill sadistic pedophile killer did it, these theorists attribute ALL of that evidence to staging. When the evidence is somewhat inconsistent, such as the wrapping, that is trumpeted as proof that the parents slipped up and inadvertently revealed their loving intentions towards their daughter. In short, these theorists cherry-pick the evidence to support their own pre-conceived notion of who did it. That is, they START with their favorite suspect and then carefully interpret the evidence in a far less than even-handed way to "prove" their suspect did it. The logical fallacy here is called affirming the consequent. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Affirming the consequent
Sherlock advises me that it is one of the most common errors committed by amateur sleuths, which is why none of them should quit their day jobs...

 

[less0305]

The Ramseys did a great deal.....bull malarkey!!!! If what they did is a "great deal" then I really feel very sorry for the rest of their children. I'd hate to be their son and know what they did to find the murderer of their daughter - cause if I were their son and knew what they did to assist in finding a killer, then I could just about figure on no help at all if I should suddenly become missing or killed, cuz the truth is....they did very very little. They formed a shield around themselves and never...never visited a police department to demand that police find the killer of their child, they never even tried to eliminate themselves from the picture, in my opinion. As far as I can tell, the most taxing thing they did was submit to handwriting samples. I would not care one iota if the police dept was obstinate or had an obsessive course of action....I'd do whatever it took to get them off that obsessive course. I'd strip the flesh from my body, hook myself up to whatever means necessary to get them off my backs and on to looking for the "real" killers, and if it meant that they continued to press forth with a determined course of action that they were going to prove that I did it even if I didn't, well, then I'd say roll the dice and take your best shot.....and I would at least be able to say you can't point a finger at me and say I didn't do everything you ever asked me to do to prove my innocence, you can't say I didn't beg or threaten you to find the killer of my child, you can't say I didn't cooperate, you can't say I wasn't available for your questions, you can't say I "lawyered up", you can't say I didn't submit to whatever test you can dream up, and I will at least be satisfied with myself that I did all I could possibly do to find the horrible excuse of a person that killed my child. But, you know, that's just me....

 

[tipper]

.. I would not care one iota if the police dept was obstinate or had an obsessive course of action....I'd do whatever it took to get them off that obsessive course. I'd strip the flesh from my body, hook myself up to whatever means necessary to get them off my backs and on to looking for the "real" killers, and if it meant that they continued to press forth with a determined course of action that they were going to prove that I did it even if I didn't, well, then I'd say roll the dice and take your best shot.....and I would at least be able to say you can't point a finger at me and say I didn't do everything you ever asked me to do to prove my innocence, you can't say I didn't beg or threaten you to find the killer of my child, you can't say I didn't cooperate, you can't say I wasn't available for your questions, you can't say I "lawyered up", you can't say I didn't submit to whatever test you can dream up, and I will at least be satisfied with myself that I did all I could possibly do to find the horrible excuse of a person that killed my child. But, you know, that's just me....

Should you ever be in the above situation, after the trial we'll send cookies to you in jail.

 

[Britt]

but in the context of all the other features surrounding her death and abandonment, this hardly is the hallmark of loving parents.

Then what is it? The hallmark of a sloppy intruder? A considerate sadistic pedophile?

BTW, my personal opinion is that the blanket had nothing to do with loving parental concern. I think its purpose was to separate the perp from the victim to minimize that annoying, and incriminating, trace evidence, something that an "intruder" wouldn't be concerned about since he wasn't gonna stick around. (He wouldn't've left a note either.)

As for the Barbie nightie, IMO the stager was going to dress JB in it, but couldn't get her changed due to rigor mortis or lack of time or interruption by a would-be co-stager etc.

When the evidence looks like a run-of-the-mill sadistic pedophile killer did it, these theorists attribute ALL of that evidence to staging. When the evidence is somewhat inconsistent, such as the wrapping, that is trumpeted as proof that the parents slipped up and inadvertently revealed their loving intentions towards their daughter.

What "sadistic pedophile"? They were terrorists, and I quote: We [blah blah blah] represent a small foreign faction. Since when do sadistic pedophiles travel in factions, small, foreign or otherwise? Furthermore, this was a kidnapping for ransom: see paragraph two of the note.

And if you think this was a "run-of-the-mill sadistic pedophile killer," then Sherlock needs to send you back to detective school. He should also explain to you that the crime scene inconsistency is evidence of "staged domestic homicide." Inexperienced criminals like Patsy and John don't know what they're doing. An authentic crime scene is not inconsistent.

less0305 - great posts.

 

[Shylock]

Darnay Hoffman's four handwriting experts were "bought and paid for" too. And they didn't have the original ransom note nor all of the exemplars to study. They worked from copies.
The CBI's six experts each had the original note and all of the exemplars to examine. They gave Patsy a 4.0 to 4.5 score, which meant it was very unlikely she wrote the note. The U.S. Secret Service examiner said it is definite that Patsy didn't write the note, and the rest of them placed her close to elimination as the writer. There were many other suspects examined who scored lower than Patsy and therefore were more likely the writer than was Patsy.

BlueCrab, I think you're mixed up on your experts. First, who do you think paid for Darnay Hoffman's experts? Surely not Darnay, he didn't even have the funds to pay for his share of the depositions.

The CBI's Ubowski believs Patsy is the author:
Handwriting experts at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation ruled out John Ramsey as the note's author, but they couldn't do the same for Patsy. After comparing one Patsy handwriting sample to the ransom note, Chet Ubowski of CBI concluded, "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.''
http://63.147.65.175/news/jon101799a.htm

The "4.0 to 4.5 score" is a bogus number that the handwriting people hired by the Ramseys came up with. None of the other experts used such a scoring scale, in fact Miller used a percentage to say he was 97% positive Patsy wrote the note, and Epstein says he is 100% positive. Additionally, the two experts the Ramseys hired didn't have any examples to work with from before the crime or the samples taken by the BPD, they had only what the Ramseys gave them, and who knows what those exemplars looked like and how badly they were manipulated.

Only Dusak and Speckin couldn't identify Patsy as the author of the note, and Speckin said,"I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

Not a single expert has been able to give Patsy a complete pass as the author of the note.

 

[Shylock]

Should you ever be in the above situation, after the trial we'll send cookies to you in jail.

How often do you send cookies to Brenda and Damen Van Damm, Tipper?
How about the parents of Elizibeth Smart? I understand they like chocolate chip....

 

[Shylock]

Oh, whoops, silly me: I forgot, this was STAGING! But that's exactly the problem with PDI/JDI theories. When the evidence looks like a run-of-the-mill sadistic pedophile killer did it, these theorists attribute ALL of that evidence to staging.

Oh, no "staging" in your book now, DocWatson? Gee, just what do you call a piece of tape over a child's mouth that couldn't possibly keep her from crying out? And how about a cord tied so loosely around her wrist that it makes no sense at all?
And your "sadistic pedophile" is such a nice guy to have wrapped her dead body in a blanket and put her favorite nightgown right next to her. If there's one thing people like to see it's a pedophile who treats his victims so lovingly and gives consideration to their dead remains! :banghead:

 

[tipper]

How often do you send cookies to Brenda and Damen Van Damm, Tipper?
How about the parents of Elizibeth Smart? I understand they like chocolate chip....

Both of those families were parents of missing children. They had hope that their children might ultimately be found alive. I think under the same circumstances the Ramseys would have behaved in the same way.

I can give you a list of people who cooperated fully with the police and were astonished to find themselves arrested and then convicted. Often the convictions could be traced back to overzealousness in how the police/DA presented or hid evidence. Thanks to Barry Sheck and others like him they have been released. But not before doing hard time all the while the real perpetrators were (and in most cases still are) out free.

 

[Sprocket]

Both of those families were parents of missing children. They had hope that their children might ultimately be found alive. I think under the same circumstances the Ramseys would have behaved in the same way.

I can give you a list of people who cooperated fully with the police and were astonished to find themselves arrested and then convicted. Often the convictions could be traced back to overzealousness in how the police/DA presented or hid evidence. Thanks to Barry Sheck and others like him they have been released. But not before doing hard time all the while the real perpetrators were (and in most cases still are) out free.

Has Barry Sheck taken on the Ramsey case? And, how many people, has Barry Sheck freed that were accused of killing their own child? You have any stats on that? My understanding of the innocence project is that DNA is used to clear convicted murderers and rapists.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

We handle cases where post conviction DNA testing of evidence can yield conclusive proof of innocence.

The supposed "DNA" recovered in the Ramsey case is old, and doesn't even have enough markers to make quantative comparisons...... It's degraded.

Yawn. Give us a call when Sheck decides to take on the Ramsey case. It won't be anytime soon...

 

[Britt]

I can give you a list of people who cooperated fully with the police and were astonished to find themselves arrested and then convicted.

Okay. I'd like to see that.

Maybe just limit it to cases involving a murdered child where the parents were suspects.

Also, how many of those defendants had lawyers like Haddon Morgan & Foreman (or whatever) et al?

 

[less0305]

Both of those families were parents of missing children. They had hope that their children might ultimately be found alive. I think under the same circumstances the Ramseys would have behaved in the same way.

I can give you a list of people who cooperated fully with the police and were astonished to find themselves arrested and then convicted. Often the convictions could be traced back to overzealousness in how the police/DA presented or hid evidence. Thanks to Barry Sheck and others like him they have been released. But not before doing hard time all the while the real perpetrators were (and in most cases still are) out free.

You know what, Tipper? If I did everything possible on this earth to assist in finding the killer of my child, and if after exhausting every single possible thing I could do, the police, the district attorney's office, and 12 jurors still believed I killed my child when I didn't, and they sent me to prison or to death row.....I'd go. But I would not hole up somewhere behind a few dozen attorneys, a smorgasbord of supposed friends, a couple of media consultants, writing a book, running for state legislature, going about my life without having done everything humanly possible to find justice for my daughter. I simply would not!! I would take my chances that truth would win out over evil (if all of the law enforcement world can be believed as evil) and if it didn't, then I would figure that God had a higher purpose in allowing me to sit in a jail cell or fry in an electric chair. But I would die with the knowledge that I did absolutely E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G I as a loving mother could do to find out and bring to justice the person who took my baby from me. I'm sorry....I just love my own daughter that much. I hope and I pray that I am never, ever put in the situation that the Walshes, the Van Dammes, Mark Klass, the Smarts, and countless other unfortunate parents have been through....but I know one thing as sure as I am drawing a breath right now, I would never do things the way the Ramseys did. And that's where you and I differ...that's life. People disagree. I can live with that.

Edited to add.....I'll look forward to the cookies while I'm in jail STILL trying to find out who murdered my child.

 

[Sprocket]

You know what, Tipper? If I did everything possible on this earth to assist in finding the killer of my child, and if after exhausting every single possible thing I could do, the police, the district attorney's office, and 12 jurors still believed I killed my child when I didn't, and they sent me to prison or to death row.....I'd go. But I would not hole up somewhere behind a few dozen attorneys, a smorgasbord of supposed friends, a couple of media consultants, writing a book, running for state legislature, going about my life without having done everything humanly possible to find justice for my daughter. I simply would not!! I would take my chances that truth would win out over evil (if all of the law enforcement world can be believed as evil) and if it didn't, then I would figure that God had a higher purpose in allowing me to sit in a jail cell or fry in an electric chair. But I would die with the knowledge that I did absolutely E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G I as a loving mother could do to find out and bring to justice the person who took my baby from me. I'm sorry....I just love my own daughter that much. I hope and I pray that I am never, ever put in the situation that the Walshes, the Van Dammes, Mark Klass, the Smarts, and countless other unfortunate parents have been through....but I know one thing as sure as I am drawing a breath right now, I would never do things the way the Ramseys did. And that's where you and I differ...that's life. People disagree. I can live with that.

Edited to add.....I'll look forward to the cookies while I'm in jail STILL trying to find out who murdered my child.

I'm getting a strong impression you wouldn't have a problem getting on the witness stand in your own defense....or right after your daughter's body is discovered, sitting down with detectives, going over every sequence of events, for as long as it takes, to find out what happened.

And, I bet, you would keep a web site up, and offer a reward, for as long as it takes...

 

[less0305]

I'm getting a strong impression you wouldn't have a problem getting on the witness stand in your own defense....or right after your daughter's body is discovered, sitting down with detectives, going over every sequence of events, for as long as it takes, to find out what happened.

And, I bet, you would keep a web site up, and offer a reward, for as long as it takes...

You could safely bet every dime you own on that!!!

 

[Cherokee]

BlueCrab, I think you're mixed up on your experts. First, who do you think paid for Darnay Hoffman's experts? Surely not Darnay, he didn't even have the funds to pay for his share of the depositions.

The CBI's Ubowski believs Patsy is the author:
Handwriting experts at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation ruled out John Ramsey as the note's author, but they couldn't do the same for Patsy. After comparing one Patsy handwriting sample to the ransom note, Chet Ubowski of CBI concluded, "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.''
http://63.147.65.175/news/jon101799a.htm

The "4.0 to 4.5 score" is a bogus number that the handwriting people hired by the Ramseys came up with. None of the other experts used such a scoring scale, in fact Miller used a percentage to say he was 97% positive Patsy wrote the note, and Epstein says he is 100% positive. Additionally, the two experts the Ramseys hired didn't have any examples to work with from before the crime or the samples taken by the BPD, they had only what the Ramseys gave them, and who knows what those exemplars looked like and how badly they were manipulated.

Only Dusak and Speckin couldn't identify Patsy as the author of the note, and Speckin said,"I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

Not a single expert has been able to give Patsy a complete pass as the author of the note.

Thank you Shylock for that succinct summary of the actual handwriting analysis results for Patsy Ramsey. I hope you don't mind, but I am going to copy it and post it every time BC (or anyone else) dishes out the old "Patsy was almost eliminated" nonsense.

IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab, I think you're mixed up on your experts. First, who do you think paid for Darnay Hoffman's experts? Surely not Darnay, he didn't even have the funds to pay for his share of the depositions.

The CBI's Ubowski believs Patsy is the author:
Handwriting experts at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation ruled out John Ramsey as the note's author, but they couldn't do the same for Patsy. After comparing one Patsy handwriting sample to the ransom note, Chet Ubowski of CBI concluded, "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey.''
http://63.147.65.175/news/jon101799a.htm

The "4.0 to 4.5 score" is a bogus number that the handwriting people hired by the Ramseys came up with. None of the other experts used such a scoring scale, in fact Miller used a percentage to say he was 97% positive Patsy wrote the note, and Epstein says he is 100% positive. Additionally, the two experts the Ramseys hired didn't have any examples to work with from before the crime or the samples taken by the BPD, they had only what the Ramseys gave them, and who knows what those exemplars looked like and how badly they were manipulated.

Only Dusak and Speckin couldn't identify Patsy as the author of the note, and Speckin said,"I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

Not a single expert has been able to give Patsy a complete pass as the author of the note.

Shylock,

Please. Let's tell the whole story.

UBowski does not believe Patsy wrote the ransom note.

Early on, before he collected a full complement of Patsy's exemplars, the CBI's Chet Ubowskt, after comparing just ONE of Patsy's exemplars to the ransom note, did say off-the-cuff there were indications that Patsy wrote the ransom note. But after all of the exemplars were available he changed his mind. Ubowski is one of the six examiners who agree that it's a very low probability that Patsy wrote the note.

The other five CBI examiners were Speckin, Alford, Cunningham, Dusak, and Rile. The two private examiners hired by the Ramseys were Cunningham and Rile, who examined the original note while BPD detectives, including Steve Thomas, sat in as observers.

You've got to understand that many of the 73 people who took the handwriting examination could not be ruled out as the writer either, not just Patsy. Nevertheless, Patsy was very close to being totally eliminated as the writer.

The six CBI examiners had the original note and all of Patsy's exemplars to study, including the London Letter and her historic exemplars. Their conclusion: Patsy could have written the note, but it's a very low probability that she did.

By way of comparison, go to ACandyRose's website and look at the exemplars that Hoffman's examiners had used. They're listed under "The Hoffman Files". Many of them were from Burke's photo album which, incidentally, were likely Burke's exemplars, not Patsy's. Ironically, if Hoffman's examiners used exemplars written by Burke, they may have proven that Burke wrote the ransom note.

JMO