I believe the Ramseys are innocent.

[azwriter]

Patsy wrote the RN ---


SisterSocks

I agree Sister. That ransom note has Patsy's personality all over it. I have long pointed out the person who wrote the note has a background in journalism or public relations. She used words and terms only a person familiar with writing a press release or newspaper article would use. From the long indents on each parapraph (used as a way to allow the editor to easily identify a new graph) to writing a time of day as a journalist would be taught to do.
I know this because I have been a reporter for 23 plus years. I can recognize the format for writing for an editor.
JMO

 

[Britt]

But after all of the exemplars were available he changed his mind. Ubowski is one of the six examiners who agree that it's a very low probability that Patsy wrote the note.

:banghead: BlueCrab, I will ask again the same thing I ask every time you post the above claim:

Please post the Ubowski quotes/sources/interviews/whatevers that PROVE your above statement is true. I assert that it is not true and not even close to being true. If you have evidence otherwise, please post it.

I don't mean your interpretation of the handwriting and I don't mean the opinions of Ramsey-hired experts Lloyd Cunningham and Howard Rile, who shouldn't even be included in your list because they were Ramsey bought and paid-for experts (who still couldn't manage to exclude Patsy!)

Where is the proof that Chet Ubowski doesn't believe Patsy wrote the note, as you state?

 

[Ivy]

http://homes.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1998/16rams.html

Excerpt:

The grand jury considering evidence in the JonBenét Ramsey murder investigation apparently heard testimony Thursday from a handwriting expert who has concluded that the child's mother could have written the ransom note.

Colorado Bureau of Investigation handwriting analyst Chet Ubowski arrived early in the afternoon at the Boulder County Justice Center, where he was met by grand jury prosecutor Michael Kane.

Reporters are not allowed inside the building to see who actually walks into the grand jury room.

According to search warrants previously unsealed in the case, Ubowski said Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as author of the 2½-page ransom note she said she found early Dec. 26, 1996.

Ubowski also determined that the note was written on paper from a white legal pad that belonged to the Ramseys.

Ubowski's analysis excluded 6-year-old JonBenét's father, John Ramsey, as a possible author of the note.

It was Ubowski's analysis that triggered a second search of the Ramseys' vacation home in Charlevoix, Mich., more than two months after JonBenét's death, seeking unrehearsed samples of Patsy Ramsey's writing.

ALSO...

Investigation agent Chet Ubowski analyzed the handwriting and found "indications" that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, according to a search warrant affidavit filed by police in March of 1997.

There were also "indications" that John Ramsey did not write it and it was "probable" that JonBenet's then 9-year-old brother Burke Ramsey also did not write it, the affidavit said.

Ultimately, though, Ubowski found that "the evidence falls short of that necessary to form a definite conclusion."

http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/ubowski.htm

imo

 

[Shylock]

Shylock,
Please. Let's tell the whole story.
UBowski does not believe Patsy wrote the ransom note.
Early on, before he collected a full complement of Patsy's exemplars, the CBI's Chet Ubowskt, after comparing just ONE of Patsy's exemplars to the ransom note, did say off-the-cuff there were indications that Patsy wrote the ransom note. But after all of the exemplars were available he changed his mind.

BlueCrab,
I think you are mixed up on the conclusions of the experts. Ubowski still believes Patsy wrote the note AFTER seeing ALL the writing exemplars, he just isn't positive enough about it to testify in court to that effect:

"The CBI, after studying several of Patsy's handwriting exemplars, noted "evidence which indicates the questioned handwritten note may have been written by Patricia Ramsey, but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definate conclusion." Chet Ubowski who was being asked to make the call of a lifetime, couldn't do it with courtroom certainty.
(Thomas p.152)

Leonard Speckin, couldn't positively identify the writing as belonging to Patsy because it was disguised, "I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the note with any degree of certainty." However Speckin felt the number of exemplars which DID match Patsy's writing made it virtually impossible that anyone else wrote the note:

"The Speckin Lab was ready to testify that there was only an infinitesmal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs."
(Thomas p.200)

It doesn't matter that the Ramsey hired experts saw the actual ransom note. What they never saw, was any writing exemplars done by the Ramseys prior to the crime. Donald Foster proved Patsy completely changed her writing style AFTER the crime, including never using the "manuscript a" again. Only the examiners used by the CBI had access to exemplars taken from the house that were written before the crime.

And finally, you have the number right, but the conclusion wrong. Out of 73 people tested, only Patsy showed authorship of the ransom note.

 

[Jayelles]

You know what, Tipper? If I did everything possible on this earth to assist in finding the killer of my child, and if after exhausting every single possible thing I could do, the police, the district attorney's office, and 12 jurors still believed I killed my child when I didn't, and they sent me to prison or to death row.....I'd go. But I would not hole up somewhere behind a few dozen attorneys, a smorgasbord of supposed friends, a couple of media consultants, writing a book, running for state legislature, going about my life without having done everything humanly possible to find justice for my daughter. I simply would not!! I would take my chances that truth would win out over evil (if all of the law enforcement world can be believed as evil) and if it didn't, then I would figure that God had a higher purpose in allowing me to sit in a jail cell or fry in an electric chair. But I would die with the knowledge that I did absolutely E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G I as a loving mother could do to find out and bring to justice the person who took my baby from me. I'm sorry....I just love my own daughter that much. I hope and I pray that I am never, ever put in the situation that the Walshes, the Van Dammes, Mark Klass, the Smarts, and countless other unfortunate parents have been through....but I know one thing as sure as I am drawing a breath right now, I would never do things the way the Ramseys did. And that's where you and I differ...that's life. People disagree. I can live with that.

Edited to add.....I'll look forward to the cookies while I'm in jail STILL trying to find out who murdered my child.

(Loud Cheer) - Excellent post! I feel exactly the same way. I think I'd be too bewildered and devastated to even contemplate my own position. I'd be consumed with getting the monster who did this to my beloved child and making him pay. I too would go to jail before I'd ever be accused of obstructing the investigation. I'd die a martyr and my family would be 100% behind me.

I don't blame the ramseys ne little bit for hiring lawyers but they should have taken those lawyers to the police interviews and helped that investigation.

You may have heard of the Soham Murder case (Holly and Jessica?). Well Ian Huntly went down for their murders in December last year. After he was sentenced, a few weeks passed and then one of the fathers spoke out. He was critical about some aspects of the investigation and rightly so, but he spoke out at the right time. He didn't down tools and refuse to co-operate when he felt things were being badly handled. The Ramseys will forever be known as the parents who obstructed the investigation into their daughter's brutal murder. Most people simply cannot understand that and it's what makes them think they had something to hide.

 

[Jayelles]

The parents of little Sarah Payne who have campaigned relentlessly since her death for a change in the law. A quote:-

"I'm astonished how much the News of the World and its readers have achieved and I'm so very proud of what has been done.

"For once someone has had the guts to stand up and say: We are going to put the needs of the victim before the needs of the offenders.

"The campaign has made the people responsible for controlling paedophiles sit up and admit they have to make drastic changes.

"What I would say to Mr Blair is that it is time to put the children first.

The Paynes were interviewed extensively by police when Sarah went missing. The entire nation took them to their hearts for their courage and committment to finding her killer. They made regular visits to the Police station to check up on the progress of the enquiry and they were full of praise for the dedication of the officers on the investigation. Sara Payne (Sarah's mother), like Brenda vanDam, grabbed every opportunity to keep the case in the news - even if it was delivering little gifts to the police station to raise morale amongst the investigative team.

 

[Nehemiah]

Well said, Jay.

IMO

 

[less0305]

The parents of little Sarah Payne who have campaigned relentlessly since her death for a change in the law. A quote:-



The Paynes were interviewed extensively by police when Sarah went missing. The entire nation took them to their hearts for their courage and committment to finding her killer. They made regular visits to the Police station to check up on the progress of the enquiry and they were full of praise for the dedication of the officers on the investigation. Sara Payne (Sarah's mother), like Brenda vanDam, grabbed every opportunity to keep the case in the news - even if it was delivering little gifts to the police station to raise morale amongst the investigative team.

It's horrible of me, but I can't remember the little girl's name that Richard Truitt is now accused of murdering.....but in their utter grief and expected shock the parents both gave extensive interviews immediately after their daughter's death. Not to mention the absolutely horrible interview their son went through with police. If there ever was a situation where people needed attorneys present, it was then.....but like you said, in the immediate shock and ugliness of what had just happened, I guess in their minds they wanted to do what they thought was helping to find the murderer and gathering up attorneys and media consultants and going on a CNN interview never entered their mind. In hindsight, yeah, sure, I'm positive they wished they had attorneys to sit down with them and the police, but it sure wasn't the first thing they thought of doing. You and I think alike, and obviously not at all like the Ramseys.

 

[Cherokee]

I agree Sister. That ransom note has Patsy's personality all over it. I have long pointed out the person who wrote the note has a background in journalism or public relations. She used words and terms only a person familiar with writing a press release or newspaper article would use. From the long indents on each parapraph (used as a way to allow the editor to easily identify a new graph) to writing a time of day as a journalist would be taught to do.
I know this because I have been a reporter for 23 plus years. I can recognize the format for writing for an editor.
JMO

Absolutely right, AZ. :clap:



IMO

 

[Cherokee]

BlueCrab,
I think you are mixed up on the conclusions of the experts. Ubowski still believes Patsy wrote the note AFTER seeing ALL the writing exemplars, he just isn't positive enough about it to testify in court to that effect:

"The CBI, after studying several of Patsy's handwriting exemplars, noted "evidence which indicates the questioned handwritten note may have been written by Patricia Ramsey, but the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definate conclusion." Chet Ubowski who was being asked to make the call of a lifetime, couldn't do it with courtroom certainty.
(Thomas p.152)

Leonard Speckin, couldn't positively identify the writing as belonging to Patsy because it was disguised, "I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the note with any degree of certainty." However Speckin felt the number of exemplars which DID match Patsy's writing made it virtually impossible that anyone else wrote the note:

"The Speckin Lab was ready to testify that there was only an infinitesmal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs."
(Thomas p.200)

... And finally, you have the number right, but the conclusion wrong. Out of 73 people tested, only Patsy showed authorship of the ransom note.

Ivy posted, >"According to search warrants previously unsealed in the case, Ubowski said Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as author of the 2½-page ransom note she said she found early Dec. 26, 1996."<

Thank you, Shylock and Ivy, for posting the truth with documented evidence. It's very refreshing. I get so tired of seeing the falsehood that "Patsy was very close to being totally eliminated as the writer" in post after post. Most times, it seems futile to try to counter it, but I do every once in awhile for the sake of the newbies who might not know the truth.

Patsy wrote the ransom note.

"The Speckin Lab was ready to testify that there was only an infinitesmal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs."

Think about it. One of four people known to be in the house that night CANNOT be eliminated as the author, and some of the experts were willing to say there's a high percentage that person DID write the note. Actually, it's once of three people ... the fourth person was found dead.



IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Ivy posted, >"According to search warrants previously unsealed in the case, Ubowski said Patsy Ramsey could not be excluded as author of the 2½-page ransom note she said she found early Dec. 26, 1996."<

Thank you, Shylock and Ivy, for posting the truth with documented evidence. It's very refreshing. I get so tired of seeing the falsehood that "Patsy was very close to being totally eliminated as the writer" in post after post. Most times, it seems futile to try to counter it, but I do every once in awhile for the sake of the newbies who might not know the truth.

Patsy wrote the ransom note.

"The Speckin Lab was ready to testify that there was only an infinitesmal chance that some random intruder would have handwriting characteristics so remarkably similar to those of a parent sleeping upstairs."

Think about it. One of four people known to be in the house that night CANNOT be eliminated as the author, and some of the experts were willing to say there's a high percentage that person DID write the note. Actually, it's once of three people ... the fourth person was found dead.



IMO

Cherokee,

Think about it. Don't you realize it is likely that neither YOU, Shylock, nor Ivy, could be excluded as writing the Ramsey ransom note either.

All of us educated in the U.S. write similarly. We all copied from the same English letters and numbers prominently posted in front of the classroom and in text books. We didn't complete the second grade in school knowing how to write Arabic, or Chinese; we completed the second grade knowing exactly how to write English -- and we all used the same letters and numbers to copy from, so we all write almost the same.

It would be nearly impossible for anyone educated in the U.S. to write the London Letter and not closely match numerous letters and numbers found in the Ramsey ransom note. It's a guarantee there's going to be close matches, especially when the examiner is unprofessionally "selective" in picking exemplars to compare. That's why most professional examiners place an emphasis on how many times a particular letter is NOT closely matched, not how many ARE closely matched, when comparing a suspect's exemplars.

The CBI's six professional examiners, with ample exemplars to compare, concluded it was a very low probability that Patsy wrote the note.

JMO

 

[K777angel]

Cherokee,

Think about it. Don't you realize it is likely that neither YOU, Shylock, nor Ivy, could be excluded as writing the Ramsey ransom note either.

All of us educated in the U.S. write similarly. We all copied from the same English letters and numbers prominently posted in front of the classroom and in text books. We didn't complete the second grade in school knowing how to write Arabic, or Chinese; we completed the second grade knowing exactly how to write English -- and we all used the same letters and numbers to copy from, so we all write almost the same.

It would be nearly impossible for anyone educated in the U.S. to write the London Letter and not closely match numerous letters and numbers found in the Ramsey ransom note. It's a guarantee there's going to be close matches, especially when the examiner is unprofessionally "selective" in picking exemplars to compare. That's why most professional examiners place an emphasis on how many times a particular letter is NOT closely matched, not how many ARE closely matched, when comparing a suspect's exemplars.

The CBI's six professional examiners, with ample exemplars to compare, concluded it was a very low probability that Patsy wrote the note.

JMO

Handwriting is NOT the only analysis on that 3 page letter Bluecrab.
You simply cannot ignore the overwhelming imprint of Patsy Ramsey all throughout that note! Her use of certain words that are not that commonly
used that are found in the note ('gentlemen' 'and hence' 'attache' 'John'
'when you get home' 'southern common sense' 'fat cats') - and that she
herself or her family was known to use! C'mon!
Try and give me one other person that you can find that:
1. Used all those same familiar words and phrases
2. Cannot be excluded as the author of the note
3. AND - Was IN THE HOUSE that night!

Not only that, it has been speculated that John may have "dictated" that note to Patsy. AND - Patsy has recounted another incident in which she sat there writing as John dictated to her!
She also used the word 'gentleman' in her book; she used 'and hence' in her Christmas card after the murder and she has made the comment that perhaps a WOMAN wrote the note.

Wake up.

 

[less0305]

I've worked in some pretty huge companies with hundreds and hundreds of people and I can honestly say that when looking at notes or handwriting there weren't a lot of them that looked similar or the same or even that close. I mean, think about all the people you work with and their handwriting.... in my office now NONE of us write anything at all alike. So the thought that we're all taught how to write in 2nd grade just don't wash with me. Yeah, we all were taught to print in 2nd grade, but believe me....they didn't teach my kids to print and write the same way they taught me to print and write when I was in 2nd grade 30 years before them. No teacher is the same...no student is the same...and no georgraphical area is the same. What school systems teach in Wyoming may be a whole lot different than the curriculum in Florida. What they taught in the 40's ain't the same as what they teach in 2004. I have worked in places where hundreds of people work and never came across handwriting that you could say, "Oh, that could be so-and-so's or it could be his or hers. They write so much alike, it's hard to tell." I'm sorry, in the real world, it just don't happen. So the odds of an intruder having very similar handwriting to Patsy AND the added odds of that intruder using the same phraseology that Patsy uses would so incredibly astronomical to me that it just isn't convincing me at all. I'm sorry, but let's take my adult daughter for example....she and I lived in the same house for 18 years. I first began teaching her to write when she was 4 or 5. I helped her with homework. She was under the influence of me in the house writing notes, doing projects, reading my writing, me reading hers....and we write absolutely nothing alike. It's just too close a sample for it NOT to be Patsy's. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

 

[sissi]

Cherokee quote:"Thank you, Shylock and Ivy, for posting the truth with documented evidence. It's very refreshing. I get so tired of seeing the falsehood that "Patsy was very close to being totally eliminated as the writer" in post after post. Most times, it seems futile to try to counter it, but I do every once in awhile for the sake of the newbies who might not know the truth."

This is very polite,even nice,however,it's the truth again according to who? THOMAS!
IMO

 

[Shylock]

This is very polite,even nice,however,it's the truth again according to who? THOMAS!

Thomas?...Oh yeah, the guy who DIDN'T find a dead child in his basement! I think most NORMAL people would take his word over anyone who did.

 

[Cherokee]

Cherokee,

Think about it. Don't you realize it is likely that neither YOU, Shylock, nor Ivy, could be excluded as writing the Ramsey ransom note either.

All of us educated in the U.S. write similarly. We all copied from the same English letters and numbers prominently posted in front of the classroom and in text books. We didn't complete the second grade in school knowing how to write Arabic, or Chinese; we completed the second grade knowing exactly how to write English -- and we all used the same letters and numbers to copy from, so we all write almost the same.

It would be nearly impossible for anyone educated in the U.S. to write the London Letter and not closely match numerous letters and numbers found in the Ramsey ransom note. It's a guarantee there's going to be close matches, especially when the examiner is unprofessionally "selective" in picking exemplars to compare. That's why most professional examiners place an emphasis on how many times a particular letter is NOT closely matched, not how many ARE closely matched, when comparing a suspect's exemplars.

The CBI's six professional examiners, with ample exemplars to compare, concluded it was a very low probability that Patsy wrote the note.

JMO

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG and WRONG again!

The CBI's six professional examiners DID NOT CONCLUDE it was a very low probability that Patsy wrote the note!!!!!

I don't know how to say it any other way. It was not a low probability. They said nothing of the kind. Furthermore, Patsy was the only one they could not EXCLUDE.

And don't tell ME to "think about it." I already have. I am a graphologist. I HAVE thought about. I have analyzed it. I have done the education necessary to determine authorship ... and I'm saying it right now ... I don't give a darn how you want to spin or twist the examiner's words ... I KNOW PATSY WROTE THE RANSOM NOTE BECAUSE OF MY OWN ANALYSIS. The concurring opinion of other experts is mere confirmation of what I already know.

And I'll tell you one more thing. I WOULD be excluded from being the author of the ransom note.

My handwriting is nothing like Patsy's or the ransom note. And I would venture to guess that Shylock's and Ivy's handwriting would also be excluded by any expert examiner, because they could not have the exact same personality traits, exemplars and linguistics as found in the ransom note. Only Patsy matches in all of those areas.

You know nothing about the field of handwriting analysis or graphology or you would not make such ridiculous statements.

Yes, we are all taught manuscript handwriting, but NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE writes exactly the same. We all put our own "stamp" on our handwriting ... our personalities come out through our handwriting. And it's not just the formation of the letters. We also use letter spacing, word spacing, line spacing, rhythm, pressure and a multitude of other variables in our written communication.

Less0305 is right. I have analyzed hundreds of different handwriting samples, and no two are alike ... not even among family members.

Sissi ... I don't care if it was Thomas who reported the facts. They are still facts. You can find some of the same information at ACR's web site or PMPT. No one from the Ramsey camp has disputed what Thomas reported regarding the handwriting analysis. If it was false, they'd have made sure everyone would have heard about it.

What Steve Thomas said regarding the findings of the handwriting experts merely confirmed what I already knew. I had analyzed the ransom note long before I ever read Thomas' book, so don't try to sway me with diatribes against Thomas. I know what I'm talking about, and so do the handwriting experts... those who could not exclude Patsy, and those who said there was a high probability she wrote the ransom note.



IMO

 

[BlueCrab]

Handwriting is NOT the only analysis on that 3 page letter Bluecrab.
You simply cannot ignore the overwhelming imprint of Patsy Ramsey all throughout that note! Her use of certain words that are not that commonly
used that are found in the note ('gentlemen' 'and hence' 'attache' 'John'
'when you get home' 'southern common sense' 'fat cats') - and that she
herself or her family was known to use! C'mon!
Try and give me one other person that you can find that:
1. Used all those same familiar words and phrases
2. Cannot be excluded as the author of the note
3. AND - Was IN THE HOUSE that night!

Burke.

JMO

 

[Kristabelle]

Hey Socks, so good to see you are still on here! I haven't been on here in ages...I see that the Ramsey saga is still alive and well. I read recently that Patsy is facing another bout with cancer; so sad.

I still think there was no intruder, sorry guys. Nice to see everyone!

 

[Shylock]

Don't you realize it is likely that neither YOU, Shylock, nor Ivy, could be excluded as writing the Ramsey ransom note either.

BlueCrab,
I think if you really dug around my home and looked at many of my old writing samples you might find a few characters that do match the Ramsey ransom note. But I don't think that is the point at all.

What you WON'T find, is some stranger breaking into my house tonight, writing a 3-page note with characters that match virtually every letter of the alphabet I have written at some recent time.

That stranger won't write with a certain qwirky character that I use (as in the "manuscript a").

That stranger won't know what I or my spouse got for a bonus last year and include it in his note.

That stranger won't use any qwirky phrase in the note which I am partial to (as in "and hence").

And that stranger isn't going to be using comments in that note based on the origin of my family history (as in "southern" common sense, or "Italian" common sense, or "Europeon" common sense...etc)


The only person who would be able to do all of that in MY house, would be ME...

 

[Britt]

Cherokee: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Yes, we are all taught manuscript handwriting, but NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE writes exactly the same. We all put our own "stamp" on our handwriting ... our personalities come out through our handwriting. And it's not just the formation of the letters. We also use letter spacing, word spacing, line spacing, rhythm, pressure and a multitude of other variables in our written communication.

Yep.

As one handwriting expert put it, handwriting is really brain writing.