IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #30

[Considering]

No, she didn't. It was 11.30 until the cctv came out, then the story changed.

If I had a suspicious mind I would be wondering about that :facepalm:

From Nancy Grace, date 17 July 2012, heavily snipped by me -

GRACE: Wylma, when you saw them right away that day what was your last image of them?

COOK: Just the normal image, don`t be gone very long and we realized they left 11:30. By 12:30, we were not happy because they weren`t back. And that`s when Kelly, my 12-year-old grandson from Heather`s house, the dad was home so we went searching right away and by 2:00, Heather couldn`t find them either so she went straight to the police station and the police went out right away.


And so it was at 11:30, they asked me if they could go for a short bike ride, and I said yes. And they`ve done this millions of times. And they`ve never, never went that far. I could go outside and yell their names, and they would eventually hear me.

We are taking your calls. Out to Ms. Wylma Cook. Ms. Cook is the grandmother of 8-year-old Elizabeth and 10-year-old Lyric. Ms. Cook, you were taking me through that morning. So they asked to go and ride their bikes, and that`s about what time?

COOK: 11:30.

GRACE: 11:30.

COOK: And Lyric knew that we were going to be heading for home at 1:30 because her mom got off at 2:00.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/17/ng.01.html


Tammy on 16 July 2012, speaking Jane Velez Mitchell -

When my mother and I, the grandmother who was babysitting, when my mother and I went on our search for them, and this was at about a quarter to 3 -- and keep in mind the last they were seen was at 11:30 a.m., when they told mom they were going on the bike ride. So that is the last time they were for sure seen. And now, it`s going on to -- it`s getting close to being a quarter to 3.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

The cctv had not been released on July 14 Des Moines Register article which stated 12:15 was written. The cctv would not be released for several more days. The Des Moines Register's is not the only article that sites 12:15; it's simply the earliest one I came across. The link posted (above) from the NG program on July 17 has Wylma stating that the girls left for the bike ride at 11:30, not that 11:30 was the last time she saw them. Also, when reading the transcript from the July 16 JVM program (link above), if the entire transcript is read, when the story was being introduced the following information was given:

"The last place that I can tell you is where they were at is when grandma seen them at 12:15."

Regarding what Aunt Tammy has to say on this same JVM program, Tammy is repeating what she thinks she remembers as the last time Wylma saw the girls. As usual, Tammy, who was not at Heather's house that morning/early afternoon, gets things confused (i.e., east/west, feet/yards/acres, etc.). Wylma has said more than once that the girls asked to go for a bike ride at 11:30 and that she last saw them behind Lederman's at 12:15.

The girls' grandmother has not changed the time she last saw the girls. I'm unsure why anyone would think there is something nefarious about Grandma Wylma, a family member and a victim of this crime.

 

[otto]

I find it important because if we know who was out searching and when they were out searching, and where they searched, it might narrow down the possibilities of where the girls might have come into contact with their abductor - assuming the abduction was random. If LE suggests they are seen in certain areas at certain times, and the family knows they weren't at certain places at certain times, that information can be used to better determine what route the girls took. JMO.

And for some of us, there are other reasons we would find that information to be of particular interest.

So, I believe this information would be of benefit to us regardless of our particular abduction theory. JMO.

Thanks. I guess I don't see that there is a direct relationship between where people searched after the children were missing and how, or where, the children encountered their abductor.

Police have placed the children near Meyers Lake between 12:30 and 1:00 PM. How they got there doesn't seem to make much difference, as there were probably hundreds of people along every route between Brovan and Arbutus. A jogger saw the bikes at the drainage gate at 2. I think the best we'll ever know is that the children were abducted somewhere between where they were last seen near Meyers Lake around 12:30-1:00 PM, and the drainage gate at 2:00 PM.

We know that no one searched for the children on the Evansdale Nature Trail near the drainage gate until 4:00 PM.

 

[watcher9]

I find it important because if we know who was out searching and when they were out searching, and where they searched, it might narrow down the possibilities of where the girls might have come into contact with their abductor - assuming the abduction was random/not pre-planned. If LE suggests they are seen in certain areas at certain times, and the family knows they weren't at certain places at certain times, that information can be used to better determine what route the girls took. JMO.

And for some of us, there are other reasons we would find that information to be of particular interest.

So, I believe this information would be of benefit to us regardless of our particular abduction theory. JMO.

I agree.
This was the point of my post to try and pinpoint a time that the girls might have seen someone/something through the window while they were fixing their drink that they couldn't even take time to drink in order to get on their bikes and take off.
If they did leave the house at 11:30 and the camera spotted them at 12:11 (8 minutes slow=12:19), then they rode around 49 minutes without being seen on the video or coming back to get a sip of their drink? The video showed them riding away from the lake. Could they have been coming home?

 

[tlcya]

The cctv had not been released on July 14 Des Moines Register article which stated 12:15 was written. The cctv would not be released for several more days. The Des Moines Register's is not the only article that sites 12:15; it's simply the earliest one I came across. The link posted (above) from the NG program on July 17 has Wylma stating that the girls left for the bike ride at 11:30, not that 11:30 was the last time she saw them. Also, when reading the transcript from the July 16 JVM program (link above), if the entire transcript is read, when the story was being introduced the following information was given:

"The last place that I can tell you is where they were at is when grandma seen them at 12:15."

Regarding what Aunt Tammy has to say on this same JVM program, Tammy is repeating what she thinks she remembers as the last time Wylma saw the girls. As usual, Tammy, who was not at Heather's house that morning/early afternoon, gets things confused (i.e., east/west, feet/yards/acres, etc.). Wylma has said more than once that the girls asked to go for a bike ride at 11:30 and that she last saw them behind Lederman's at 12:15.

The girls' grandmother has not changed the time she last saw the girls. I'm unsure why anyone would think there is something nefarious about Grandma Wylma, a family member and a victim of this crime.

I agree, Grandma Wylma's stated time of 12:15 stands as far as I am concerned in my own timeline. I do see inconsistencies in peoples accounts of what was happening when, but not on that issue. As far as the other inconsistencies - I have explained upthread what I feel has contributed to those.

For my own part, my discussion of the timeline and the various family members' accounts of that day have nothing to do with insinuating that any family member is nefarious. It just makes things more difficult to discern as far as when the perp(s) may have encountered them, were they being watched, if so from where and for how long before they were abducted. Those are the things that I wish we could figure out.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The cctv had not been released on July 14 Des Moines Register article which stated 12:15 was written. The cctv would not be released for several more days. The Des Moines Register's is not the only article that sites 12:15; it's simply the earliest one I came across. The link posted (above) from the NG program on July 17 has Wylma stating that the girls left for the bike ride at 11:30, not that 11:30 was the last time she saw them. Also, when reading the transcript from the July 16 JVM program (link above), if the entire transcript is read, when the story was being introduced the following information was given:

"The last place that I can tell you is where they were at is when grandma seen them at 12:15."

Regarding what Aunt Tammy has to say on this same JVM program, Tammy is repeating what she thinks she remembers as the last time Wylma saw the girls. As usual, Tammy, who was not at Heather's house that morning/early afternoon, gets things confused (i.e., east/west, feet/yards/acres, etc.). Wylma has said more than once that the girls asked to go for a bike ride at 11:30 and that she last saw them behind Lederman's at 12:15.

The girls' grandmother has not changed the time she last saw the girls. I'm unsure why anyone would think there is something nefarious about Grandma Wylma, a family member and a victim of this crime.

All those articles prove is that prove is that msm were being told "12.15" by LE, and then they reported it. LE have never budged on 12.15 so I don't find it "proof" of anything.

MSM reported LE's official last seen, not grandma's. Probably because LE are the official source of information. :dunno:

The point here is that Grandma's earlier story was 11.30.

No one knew why LE said "12.15" in the first week. The cctv wasn't made public until the 25th.

The family interviews said 11.15 before the cctv was revealed, then they quickly changed.

Unless you can link to an early interview where grandma herself says "12.15" her statements cannot be explained away, merely by referring to MSM reporting to the contrary.

 

[carbuff]

It's worth keeping in mind that eyewitness testimony is often unreliable, for a variety of reasons related mostly to how the human brain works. Even honest, innocent people with the best of intentions make mistakes.

Some percentage of the eyewitness accounts in this case are going to be mistaken. How many? Which ones? No way to tell until it's solved.

 

[tlcya]

All those articles prove is that prove is that msm were being told "12.15" by LE, and then they reported it. LE have never budged on 12.15 so I don't find it "proof" of anything.

MSM reported LE's official last seen, not grandma's. Probably because LE are the official source of information. :dunno:

The point here is that Grandma's earlier story was 11.30.

No one knew why LE said "12.15" in the first week. The cctv wasn't made public until the 25th.

The family interviews said 11.15 before the cctv was revealed, then they quickly changed.

Unless you can link to an early interview where grandma herself says "12.15" her statements cannot be explained away, merely by referring to MSM reporting to the contrary.

Not to split hairs my friend, but LE was giving the time of 12:15 as far back as the 14th. Wylma was on NG on the 17th. The owner of the CCTV did not look at his video until sometime (I believe days) and LE did not release word of the video's existence til the 25th. Ostensibly they had that video for some days prior, analyzing it etc.

While the initial articles are not "proof" of anything, they certainly do strongly support the notion that that was always the information given by Wylma to LE. That she last saw them at around 12:15.

I know you will not be convinced to see it the way I do and that's okay. In the initial hours during the searching, the family was busy talking to LE, not giving NG interviews. Those came later. The articles I linked upthread were posted prior to the discovery of the CCTV. Even those that were updated, were not updated on dates that could be explained as that 12:15 time being added later to accommodate the CCTV's discovery.

Someone told LE that those girls were last seen at 12:15 and it wasn't the CCTV IMO, although that did validate that information once the video's existence was discovered. I gotta believe that the articles are correct in their statement that that information comes from gramma.

Again, I know I won't be changing your view on this nor will you be changing mine but I appreciate that you always keep me on my toes.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Thanks. I guess I don't see that there is a direct relationship between where people searched after the children were missing and how, or where, the children encountered their abductor.
.

There is a direct relationship to my mind, as I wonder - If people were searching, why didn't they find them? Did Kelly bike around the lake at midday? Why didn't Wylma find them when she did her search? Or Tammy, or Heather? Why did no one find the bikes earlier?

Police have placed the children near Meyers Lake between 12:30 and 1:00 PM. .

The official timeline has "last seen" at 12.15. Nothing else has been confirmed by LE.

How they got there doesn't seem to make much difference, as there were probably hundreds of people along every route between Brovan and Arbutus. A jogger saw the bikes at the drainage gate at 2. I think the best we'll ever know is that the children were abducted somewhere between where they were last seen near Meyers Lake around 12:30-1:00 PM, and the drainage gate at 2:00 PM.

We know that no one searched for the children on the Evansdale Nature Trail near the drainage gate until 4:00 PM.

I don't know this. I know that Wylma and Kelly searched (including Meyers Lake) and now I find out Kelly was looking on his bike even earlier (looking for a link to that tidbit, hint).

We know Tammy and Heather also searched as well as Misty, all independantly of each other.

GRACE: Wylma, when you saw them right away that day what was your last image of them?

COOK: Just the normal image, don`t be gone very long and we realized they left 11:30. By 12:30, we were not happy because they weren`t back.

"what was your last image of them?" doesn't seem to be a trick question.

Wylma's "they left 11.30...by 12.30 we were not happy" seems to be a straightforward answer. They left 11.30 and were not seen again.

In fact, re-reading, I would say that the last time Wylma saw the girls was actually before 11.30...otherwise why would "we realize" they had already gone at 11.30? Didn't they know?

If I tell my kids they can go out for a ride, I know when they go, especially if we're on a time frame...I don't "realise" that they have already left, after the event, if you see what I mean.

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Not to split hairs my friend, but LE was giving the time of 12:15 as far back as the 14th. Wylma was on NG on the 17th. The owner of the CCTV did not look at his video until sometime (I believe days) and LE did not release word of the video's existence til the 25th. Ostensibly they had that video for some days prior, analyzing it etc.

While the initial articles are not "proof" of anything, they certainly do strongly support the notion that that was always the information given by Wylma to LE. That she last saw them at around 12:15.

I know you will not be convinced to see it the way I do and that's okay. In the initial hours during the searching, the family was busy talking to LE, not giving NG interviews. Those came later. The articles I linked upthread were posted prior to the discovery of the CCTV. Even those that were updated, were not updated on dates that could be explained as that 12:15 time being added later to accommodate the CCTV's discovery.

Someone told LE that those girls were last seen at 12:15 and it wasn't the CCTV IMO, although that did validate that information once the video's existence was discovered. I gotta believe that the articles are correct in their statement that that information comes from gramma.

Again, I know I won't be changing your view on this nor will you be changing mine but I appreciate that you always keep me on my toes.

It all boils down to whether you think this is a random abduction or something far darker.

If you view it from rose tinted glasses, everyone is just "mistaken" or "confused". I get that, it's "victim" friendly here.

If you view it from Steely reality, the statistics tell us it's someone the girls knew. Heather pretty much tells us it's someone the girls knew. The circumstances of the crime tell us it's someone that they knew, not only knew but trusted.

The inconsistencies are not explained.

If the girls were at Brovan at 12.15, why did Kelly not see them when he went searching by bike at noon? If their bikes were at Meyers by 2, why did Tammy or Misty or Kelly not find them, especially with Tammy's psychic notification that they were there? :dunno:

:cow:

 

[nursebeeme]

It all boils down to whether you think this is a random abduction or something far darker.

If you view it from rose tinted glasses, everyone is just "mistaken" or "confused". I get that, it's "victim" friendly here.

If you view it from Steely reality, the statistics tell us it's someone the girls knew. Heather pretty much tells us it's someone the girls knew. The circumstances of the crime tell us it's someone that they knew, not only knew but trusted.

The inconsistencies are not explained.

If the girls were at Brovan at 12.15, why did Kelly not see them when he went searching by bike at noon? If their bikes were at Meyers by 2, why did Tammy or Misty or Kelly not find them, especially with Tammy's psychic notification that they were there? :dunno:

:cow:

bold and big and jumping off your post: yes we are and this includes family members

:tos:

 

[SapphireSteel]

bold and big and jumping off your post: yes we are and this includes family members

:tos:

Unfortunately the questions I want answered fall in to the "bashing" category because they do surround basic facts regarding timelines, family, and who did what where when with whom.

We've even had LE adding to the confusion by saying "the girls are alive" and that the bikes were seen by a "jogger", the family weren't co-operating, oh wait yes they are...! ullhair:

The Alice in Wonderland analogy is perfect. Down the rabbit hole is right...straight into the maze of mirrors.

Sometimes a nugget of pure gold is dug up amongst all this, such as the sleuther who found the evidence in the Casey Anthony trial, that no one else had found before. The desire for justice and truth is what keeps us all coming back.

:moo:

 

[cindersoot]

SS, is the drought over in Austalia now?

 

[SapphireSteel]

SS, is the drought over in Austalia now?

Yes it's been over for a year now.

It's actually raining right now. This doesn't sound exciting but it is, for us downunder

 

[nursebeeme]

Unfortunately the questions I want answered fall in to the "bashing" category because they do surround basic facts regarding timelines, family, and who did what where when with whom.

We've even had LE adding to the confusion by saying "the girls are alive" and that the bikes were seen by a "jogger", the family weren't co-operating, oh wait yes they are...! ullhair:

The Alice in Wonderland analogy is perfect. Down the rabbit hole is right...straight into the maze of mirrors.

Sometimes a nugget of pure gold is dug up amongst all this, such as the sleuther who found the evidence in the Casey Anthony trial, that no one else had found before. The desire for justice and truth is what keeps us all coming back.

:moo:

Casey Anthony was on trial and that nugget was related to discovery documents.

We DO NOT sleuth family members or post about them until or unless they are named by LE as a suspect or person of interest.

 

[cindersoot]

Yes it's been over for a year now.

It's actually raining right now. This doesn't sound exciting but it is, for us downunder

I just wondered I knew you had a bad drought there for awhile, glad things are back to the norm.:rocker:

 

[cindersoot]

I'm getting so frustated with no info on the case.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Right now I have to :shutup: or I'll be in the corner again, but I will say we get sleuthing gold in this forum when the right combination are online at the same time!

Fools gold.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I just wondered I knew you had a bad drought there for awhile, glad things are back to the norm.:rocker:

Aw thanks. Yes things are much greener.

I must say I have enjoyed watching the seasons change in Iowa and hearing your stories of snow etc.

It doesn't seem fair that some of you get scorching hot and freezing cold too. Our winters are very mild.

 

[cindersoot]

When i was at seven bridges this last time I scooped some dirt from the site a body was found and brought it home and put it in a jar and made my own memorial. I added a flower from the site and a shell I found there. I also added a rock from the area at Meyers by the gate. It is my little memorial to this case. The rock, shell and flower at the top of the jar.

 

[SapphireSteel]

When i was at seven bridges this last time I scooped some dirt from the site a body was found and brought it home and put it in a jar and made my own memorial. I added a flower from the site and a shell I found there. I also added a rock from the area at Meyers by the gate. It is my little memorial to this case. The rock, shell and flower at the top of the jar.

That's awesome cinder. What a lovely way to remember.

This case is under my skin too.