IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #32

[SpringThyme]

"In court filings made by Klunder in 2005, he admitted his “history of psychological problems,” which he said had included schizoid and anti-social behaviors, intermittent explosive disorder, an impulse disorder, and a narcissistic personality disorder."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...4/Abduction-suspect-had-long-history-violence

The DSM does not have a diagnostic category of psychopathy. However, this particular mix essentially describes a psychopath: violent, manipulative, lacks empathy, grandiose, can't fit into society, doesn't consider consequences. He has a rap sheet beginning at 16 and has acted out violently ever since. He has other crimes to his name as well.

Schizoid: Cannot relate to society
Antisocial: Criminal Behavior
Intermittent Explosive: Uncontrolled rage
Impulse Disorder: Not specified, but could be kleptomania, pyromania or some other maladaptive behavior
Narcissistic PD: Exploitive, manipulative, grandiose self-worth, lacks empathy

No mention of bipolar, schizophrenia, low IQ, ADHD, PTSD, or depression, etc which would indicate a whole other set of issues. This is psychopathy, IMO.

 

[Foxfire]

I think it is important to keep in mind that Klunder was not a serial killer, as far as we know, so a lot of info about serial killers may not apply to him. Nor does it necessarily apply to our girls' killer since we certainly don't know if a serial killer took them.

I know I've posted this link several times, but I'm posting it again for anyone who is interested. This link provides info specific to child abduction murders, which differ greatly from serial killer murders:

http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles...)/Child_Abduction_Murder_Research/CMIIPDF.pdf

Marilynilpa, interesting read..I found it very helpful, especially page #31 and a few others that are pertinent to MJK's probable abduction of L & L, as well as others..
Ironically the study was released in 2006...The same year that facebook became available to the general public, and one year after the FBI redefined a serial killer as having only two unrelated victims from two different locations and times..

 

[SapphireSteel]

"In court filings made by Klunder in 2005, he admitted his “history of psychological problems,” which he said had included schizoid and anti-social behaviors, intermittent explosive disorder, an impulse disorder, and a narcissistic personality disorder."

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...4/Abduction-suspect-had-long-history-violence

The DSM does not have a diagnostic category of psychopathy. However, this particular mix essentially describes a psychopath: violent, manipulative, lacks empathy, grandiose, can't fit into society, doesn't consider consequences. He has a rap sheet beginning at 16 and has acted out violently ever since. He has other crimes to his name as well.

Schizoid: Cannot relate to society
Antisocial: Criminal Behavior
Intermittent Explosive: Uncontrolled rage
Impulse Disorder: Not specified, but could be kleptomania, pyromania or some other maladaptive behavior
Narcissistic PD: Exploitive, manipulative, grandiose self-worth, lacks empathy

No mention of bipolar, schizophrenia, low IQ, ADHD, PTSD, or depression, etc which would indicate a whole other set of issues. This is psychopathy, IMO.

Not to get all pedantic about this, but it is interesting and I have learnt something.

There are a core set of features of psychopathy, the largest of which is "uncaring".

The PCL describes psychopaths as being callous and showing a lack of empathy, traits which the PPI describes as “coldheartedness.” The criteria for dissocial personality disorder include a “callous unconcern for the feelings of others.” There are now several lines of evidence that point to the biological grounding for the uncaring nature of the psychopath. For us, caring is a largely emotion-driven enterprise. The brains of psycopaths have been found to have weak connections among the components of the brain’s emotional systems. These disconnects are responsible for the psychopath’s inability to feel emotions deeply.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindmelding/201301/what-is-psychopath-0

Not likely to commit suicide, in my opinion, especially when you factor in the other features of psychopathy such as overconfidence and selfishness.

:twocents:

 

[Foxfire]

BBM

While I appreciate your posts, I would question the comment I bolded above. As a long-time follower of these types of cases, I do not recall seeing any statistics indicating "in virtually every case is the statement, 'imo, I think he was too dumb to pull it off."

Thanks in advance for providing a source for this info.

You will not see any statistics, Manilynilpa. The statement is from my observations only, and from research of many serial killers/sexual predators for over the past 5+ years, since 01/01/2008, beginning with Gary M. Hilton(GA/FL/NC). LE/GBI/DCSO investigators and many others tagged him as a petty drifter & thief. His IQ was revealed in the FL death penalty trial for the murder of Cheryl Dunlap. He was within the top 10% of the world and in the top 1% in one category..

This statement was also made in Brandon S. Lavergne investigation for the murder of Mickey SchunickLA-2012), as well as many others.. BSL, was also revealed to have above average intelligence.

Manilynilpa, I honor your opinion... MJK's IQ, may or may not ever be revealed since he is deceased, and there will be no trial.. Hopefully investigators will provide answers and the ms media will keep digging into MJK's past...

 

[SapphireSteel]

Marilynilpa, interesting read..I found it very helpful, especially page #31 and a few others that are pertinent to MJK's probable abduction of L & L, as well as others..
Ironically the study was released in 2006...The same year that facebook became available to the general public, and one year after the FBI redefined a serial killer as having only two unrelated victims from two different locations and times..

I thought it was three? With a cool down period between? :waitasec:

 

[Foxfire]

Not to get all pedantic about this, but it is interesting and I have learnt something.

There are a core set of features of psychopathy, the largest of which is "uncaring".

The PCL describes psychopaths as being callous and showing a lack of empathy, traits which the PPI describes as “coldheartedness.” The criteria for dissocial personality disorder include a “callous unconcern for the feelings of others.” There are now several lines of evidence that point to the biological grounding for the uncaring nature of the psychopath. For us, caring is a largely emotion-driven enterprise. The brains of psycopaths have been found to have weak connections among the components of the brain’s emotional systems. These disconnects are responsible for the psychopath’s inability to feel emotions deeply.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindmelding/201301/what-is-psychopath-0

Not likely to commit suicide, in my opinion, especially when you factor in the other features of psychopathy such as overconfidence and selfishness.

:twocents:

RE: There are a core set of features of psychopathy, the largest of which is "uncaring".

Psychopaths are very narcissistic...They have no empathy for others....Others are only objects to them; chess pieces..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/alaska-serial-killer-article-1.1215766

Alaska serial killer kept murder kits around the country to prep for another strike, commits suicide
Confessed serial Israel Keyes committed suicide in jail on Sunday, after being locked up for the murder of barista Samantha Koenig. He leaves behind an incomplete picture of a loner who traveled the country for years, killing victims at random.

"Israel Keyes, Alaska Serial Killer, Researched Ted Bundy, Other Mass Murderers ”.
http://israelkeyes.blogspot.com/2013/02/citations-sources.html

 

[Marilynilpa]

Marilynilpa, interesting read..I found it very helpful, especially page #31 and a few others that are pertinent to MJK's probable abduction of L & L, as well as others..
Ironically the study was released in 2006...The same year that facebook became available to the general public, and one year after the FBI redefined a serial killer as having only two unrelated victims from two different locations and times..

What I find interesting is how different a child abductor/killer is from a killer who preys on adult victims. The study does a good job of pointing out the differences, IMO.

I wish a third update would be done, since social media is more prevalent than it was in 2006. That has to have some bearing on how these killers sometimes connect with their victims, IMO.

While I do not think Klunder is a serial killer because I believe he wasn't the person who killed our girls, this document gives a lot of info about the subject:

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

It discusses serial killers who prey on adults, so the info doesn't necessarily apply to a child abductor/killer.

That's why I like the 2006 study, since it is specific to what happened to Lyric and Lizzie. As that study states on pg. 18, "those who kill abducted children share many characteristics with other types of murderers, but they differ in important ways that suggest a different etiology to their predatory behavior."

 

[Marilynilpa]

You will not see any statistics, Manilynilpa. The statement is from my observations only, and from research of many serial killers/sexual predators for over the past 5+ years, since 01/01/2008, beginning with Gary M. Hilton(GA/FL/NC). LE/GBI/DCSO investigators and many others tagged him as a petty drifter & thief. His IQ was revealed in the FL death penalty trial for the murder of Cheryl Dunlap. He was within the top 10% of the world and in the top 1% in one category..

This statement was also made in Brandon S. Lavergne investigation for the murder of Mickey SchunickLA-2012), as well as many others.. BSL, was also revealed to have above average intelligence.

Manilynilpa, I honor your opinion... MJK's IQ, may or may not ever be revealed since he is deceased, and there will be no trial.. Hopefully investigators will provide answers and the ms media will keep digging into MJK's past...

I wish Klunder hadn't killed himself, because I feel like he might have confessed, like Lavergne, and provided a lot of answers!

 

[Marilynilpa]

I thought it was three? With a cool down period between? :waitasec:

That's what I thought, but the FBI has this definition:

Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events.serial killer as having two or more victims.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

 

[Foxfire]

I thought it was three? With a cool down period between? :waitasec:

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

Behavioral Analysis Unit-2
National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime
Critical Incident Response Group
Federal Bureau of Investigation

September 2/2005
The different discussion groups at the Symposium agreed on a number of similar factors to be included in a definition. These included:

• one or more offenders
• two or more murdered victims
• incidents should be occurring in separate events, at different times
• the time period between murders separates serial murder from mass murder

In combining the various ideas put forth at the Symposium, the following definition was crafted:

Serial Murder: The unlawful killing of two or more victims by the same offender(s), in separate events.

 

[SpringThyme]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?...ND+511[page]+AND+2008[pdat]&cmd=detailssearch

Offenders with antisocial traits are relatively likely to attempt suicide, largely because they are more likely to have high negative emotionality and low constraint. Among 682 male offenders, we tested whether negative emotionality, low constraint, and also substance use problems mediated any relationship between antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and psychopathy on the one hand, and suicide-related behavior (SRB) and ideation on the other. ASPD and the impulsivity/lifestyle features of psychopathy weakly predicted SRB. High negative emotionality and low constraint (but not substance use) mediated the relation between ASPD and SRB. Impulsivity/lifestyle features of psychopathy retained an independent predictive effect. Self-report psychopathy measures added unique predictive variance to the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised. We discuss implications for suicide risk assessment and prevention.

Violent, selfish, impulsive behavior can easily include suicide.

In his own court filings, he did admitted to a diagnostic cluster that closely resembles psychopathy. If he had some other mental disorder that would have made him more sympathetic he would have probably mentioned it there.

 

[Foxfire]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?...ND+511[page]+AND+2008[pdat]&cmd=detailssearch

Offenders with antisocial traits are relatively likely to attempt suicide, largely because they are more likely to have high negative emotionality and low constraint. Among 682 male offenders, we tested whether negative emotionality, low constraint, and also substance use problems mediated any relationship between antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and psychopathy on the one hand, and suicide-related behavior (SRB) and ideation on the other. ASPD and the impulsivity/lifestyle features of psychopathy weakly predicted SRB. High negative emotionality and low constraint (but not substance use) mediated the relation between ASPD and SRB. Impulsivity/lifestyle features of psychopathy retained an independent predictive effect. Self-report psychopathy measures added unique predictive variance to the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised. We discuss implications for suicide risk assessment and prevention.

Violent, selfish, impulsive behavior can easily include suicide.

In his own court filings, he did admitted to a diagnostic cluster that closely resembles psychopathy. If he had some other mental disorder that would have made him more sympathetic he would have probably mentioned it there.

It is thought that AK serial killer Israel Keyes committed suicide to shield his biological daughter from the truth of his decades long evil trail of terror.. Imo, this may be Michael J. Klunder's motive; to hide the truth from his biological son...

 

[alliemay]

It was all about his wants, not anyone else, so not sure that he killed himself to protect his son from the truth. If he truly had loved his son, the love he felt for him would have kept his urges in place, and his priorities straight IMO.

 

[Marilynilpa]

It is thought that AK serial killer Israel Keyes committed suicide to shield his biological daughter from the truth of his decades long evil trail of terror.. Imo, this may be Michael J. Klunder's motive; to hide the truth from his biological son...

That's certainly possible, although his son still found out the truth.

I think he killed himself because he didn't want to go back to prison, and he didn't want to face his wife and in-laws once his true nature was revealed. JMO.

 

[Foxfire]

Prolly one of the best articles I've ever read concerning predators/serial killers;


http://www.expertlaw.com/library/investigators/serial_killers.html#4

Serial Killers - A Homicide Detective's Take
By Lieutenant Nelson Andreu (Retired)
Miami Police Department

Contents

Credentials and Interest
Common Knowledge
Genesis of a Serial Killer
Victim Selection
Victim Objectification
Denouement
Case Histories

 

[SpringThyme]

"Externalizing psychopathology is associated with an increased risk for suicidal behavior. Within the externalizing domain, psychopathy may be an important construct for the understanding of which individuals are at particularly high risk. However, prior studies of psychopathy and suicidal behavior have not distinguished between suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injurious behavior (NSIB). The present study used data on 810 civil psychiatric patients from the MacArthur Violence Risk Assessment Project to examine the relationships between scores on the four dimensions of the Psychopathy Checklist: Screening Version (PCL: SV) and suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injurious behavior (NSIB). Results indicate that only the antisocial dimension of psychopathy is associated with suicide attempts"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19379096

Externalizing psychopathology = Aggression, anger, rage, acting out, violence, hostility, criminality, impulsiveness.

He nearly killed a girl when he was just 16 and left a toddler for dead in the garbage 50 miles from home. He assaulted another woman, kidnapped these girls and murdered one. He also has domestic violence, theft, and cocaine addiction under his belt. He faked his way through sex offended treatment, managed to appear normal enough to get married and can gain enough trust to work unsupervised. This just screams Mask of Sanity to me.

I can see why they are combing through unsolved murders to see if he is responsible.

 

[Donamena]

yes, yes, yes & yes!!! evil, evil, evil & evil!!

Ain't they all...from the depths of hell..

 

[SapphireSteel]

Keyes committed suicide in jail.

I was originally going to say that a psychopath would only consider suicide when cornered but didn't think I needed to add that distinction. Seems I should've.

Psychopaths by definition always think they're going to find a way out of trouble.

A true psychopath would plot his own suicide ONLY as a last ditch attempt at controlling the situation, eg, "you'll never find the bodies".

Klunder suicided because he thought he was about to be caught. Psychopaths don't think they're going to get caught at all.

A fine distinction but an important one.

 

[Foxfire]

"Externalizing psychopathology is associated with an increased risk for suicidal behavior. Within the externalizing domain, psychopathy may be an important construct for the understanding of which individuals are at particularly high risk. However, prior studies of psychopathy and suicidal behavior have not distinguished between suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injurious behavior (NSIB). The present study used data on 810 civil psychiatric patients from the MacArthur Violence Risk Assessment Project to examine the relationships between scores on the four dimensions of the Psychopathy Checklist: Screening Version (PCL: SV) and suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injurious behavior (NSIB). Results indicate that only the antisocial dimension of psychopathy is associated with suicide attempts"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19379096

Externalizing psychopathology = Aggression, anger, rage, acting out, violence, hostility, criminality, impulsiveness.

He nearly killed a girl when he was just 16 and left a toddler for dead in the garbage 50 miles from home. He assaulted another woman, kidnapped these girls and murdered one. He also has domestic violence, theft, and cocaine addiction under his belt. He faked his way through sex offended treatment, managed to appear normal enough to get married and can gain enough trust to work unsupervised. This just screams Mask of Sanity to me.

I can see why they are combing through unsolved murders to see if he is responsible.

RE: and left a toddler for dead in the garbage 50 miles from home.

Two 3 year olds in the dumpster for 5 hours. One had signs of being choked..
This was only one day before the abduction of Lori Rattay,in 1991 when she was 21-years old .

http://thegazette.com/2013/05/23/dayton-abduction-suspects-1991-victim-speaks-out/

 

[Marilynilpa]

"Externalizing psychopathology is associated with an increased risk for suicidal behavior. Within the externalizing domain, psychopathy may be an important construct for the understanding of which individuals are at particularly high risk. However, prior studies of psychopathy and suicidal behavior have not distinguished between suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injurious behavior (NSIB). The present study used data on 810 civil psychiatric patients from the MacArthur Violence Risk Assessment Project to examine the relationships between scores on the four dimensions of the Psychopathy Checklist: Screening Version (PCL: SV) and suicide attempts and nonsuicidal self-injurious behavior (NSIB). Results indicate that only the antisocial dimension of psychopathy is associated with suicide attempts"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19379096

Externalizing psychopathology = Aggression, anger, rage, acting out, violence, hostility, criminality, impulsiveness.

He nearly killed a girl when he was just 16 and left a toddler for dead in the garbage 50 miles from home. He assaulted another woman, kidnapped these girls and murdered one. He also has domestic violence, theft, and cocaine addiction under his belt. He faked his way through sex offended treatment, managed to appear normal enough to get married and can gain enough trust to work unsupervised. This just screams Mask of Sanity to me.

I can see why they are combing through unsolved murders to see if he is responsible.

BBM

Mask of sanity is a chillingly accurate description, IMO.