IA IA - Rose Burkert, 22, & Roger Atkison, 32, Williamsburg, 12 Sept 1980

[mcbrainder]

Let's talk about the murder weapon: The hatchet or the axe, the wounds and the position of the victims.

The weapon was never found, so we could not have any doubts that the killer took it with him. Now, what kind of weapon would someone to take to commit a murder and with the idea of bringing it back? A knife (best choice) but the killer seems to thought an axe sort of was better. Or did he have no choice to bring that particular type of tool instead of a knife? No doubt an axe is a more powerful fatal weapon than a knife. But a normal axe is a big tool, difficult to handle in a room (the room was indeed small) and problematic to hide if someone encountered the killer in the hall or any other place. It must have been a small axe or, as you say McBrainder, a roofer's hatch (small and easy to conceal). There's info about the conclusions of the autopsies that could firmly state the wounds were made by an axe-type weapon?

The position of the bodies. Very weird if someone sees that Roger seems to have tried to defend himself using his hands. What can we make of this? Roger and Rose were forced to lay down and be quite. The killer kills Rose first and Roger stays quietly lay down? (I think even the most coward man would have got off the bed or tried to run or even scream). If the killer went first at Roger, surely Rose would have screamed louder. Now, let's assume there were to killers. One for Rose and the other for Roger. Much cleaner and easier, no doubt there. Probably Roger, lying dowm, put his hands over his back head and the first strike cut his fingers off and cracked his skull, killing him instantly. The arms would fall either their side slowly before the second strike. I cannot possible imagine just one killer in the room (even under coercian) striking these blows without any of the victims triyng something or screaming... or did they scream but nobody heard them? They could not have been asleep (Rose's being dressed just doesn't make any sense). Now I can picture many parts of this tragedy and I am starting really to believe that Rose didn't had the chance to undress at all and that this crime must surely have been committed around 21:40 or 21:50 with them fully awake. That day there was a mortician convention. What the morticians were doing during that frame of time? A big Reunion in the hall or somewhere else? Was the meeting over already by that time? How much noise they were doing? Maybe the killer smiled before entering the room while hearing all that rackle and clatter happening downstairs... I think there was a lot clues and investigative work that could have been done in late 1980 by the Police, with the murder scene still going and all the witnesses fully aware and filled with fresh memories.

I saw someone say that the hotel had old farm tools and someone probably grabbed one. I don't believe that and it seems strange. I've also seen mention that Roger's crew carried tools that could have been the weapon. If Roger didn't bring his vehicle, it's hard to believe it was one of his tools. If the weapon was brought in by the killers, then they had it in the first place which means they probably followed with intent to kill.

I think about the screaming thing a lot and draw a few guesses on that:
1) Frozen in fear.
2) The belief that staying quiet will keep them safe under a false promise. A conversation was carried out and no one screamed throughout it, so there must have been a belief that they'd live if cooperative.
3) It happened too fast and unexpected
4) Someone actually did scream but no one heard it.

This is one of the details that seeing crime scene photos would be nice. News said there was blood everywhere, and that blood probably tells a story. It had to have been tracked or shown where exactly they were when killed. Maybe one did try to get up and run. My belief is that Rose was first and then Roger, and both were pleading for their life, knowing there was nowhere they could go or nothing they could do other than hope they wouldn't be killed. The moment they were asked to lay down, they must have known there was a possibility they'd be killed.

I agree that the crime was committed while they were awake. I don't think they were awoken by a knock. I think it was shortly after the car was moved, as that may have been the moment that someone followed from the parking lot to the room. If they were sitting in the parking lot, sure of the hotel but not of the room, then at some point, they have to figure out the room, which would mean either following someone in, forcing someone to show them, or asking at the front desk (which we'd probably know who did it if that happened). My thought is that someone either saw Rose alone moving the car and followed her in (she wouldn't recognize either man), or confronted her in the parking lot. The bar still doesn't fit into that narrative though, unless it happened sooner.

Another thought I had in regards to noise is that they were in the corner room. If someone screamed loud enough, there's only one adjoining room that would likely have someone who heard it. If that room was empty for any reason (the convention), or even if they just slept through it, then that eliminates anyone (with the exception of hallway walkers), that could potentially have been a witness.

 

[mysterymike]

There are so many possible theories with this murder.

With Roger being in his underwear, I am of the opinion that he did not know he was being stalked and felt comfortable enough in his surroundings to be wearing his underwear, unless, of course, he was in the process of changing clothes. If he was paranoid about being followed, I doubt he would have been comfortable just lounging around the room in his underwear, unless he felt totally at ease at first with his killers. And how could he possibly feel at ease around daddy H., knowing he was caught cheating on his daughter.

I feel this part of the scenario is deserving of more in depth thinking.

 

[mysterymike]

It would help if we knew the exact time the car was moved. I am of the opinion that Rose moved it, which would explain why she was fully clothed if the killers came in with her.

I would also like to know the exact time Rose was in the bar and did she go alone? Like you Mcbrainder, I would really like to know who was in the bar that night, and would also love to know who and where the bartender is today and what he has to say.

 

[mcbrainder]

There are so many possible theories with this murder.

With Roger being in his underwear, I am of the opinion that he did not know he was being stalked and felt comfortable enough in his surroundings to be wearing his underwear, unless, of course, he was in the process of changing clothes. If he was paranoid about being followed, I doubt he would have been comfortable just lounging around the room in his underwear, unless he felt totally at ease at first with his killers. And how could he possibly feel at ease around daddy H., knowing he was caught cheating on his daughter.

I feel this part of the scenario is deserving of more in depth thinking.

I would agree that he may not have known for certain, but since he and Rose had been taking precautions, I think he must have known that his wife/family was onto him. He might have been somewhat staging the scene too in a way. One thing we'll never know is just what Roger believed his father in law to be capable of. He might have considered him to be a mean guy and maybe even vindictive, but would he ever have believed he could murder?

I think given what we know, one of two scenarios would have to be true. Please add to this list any other likely scenario. I just can't come up with anything else plausible.
1) The killers were let in (This could have been reluctantly. "I know you're in there. I'm not going away" kind of scenario)
2) The killers followed Rose in (maybe wedged a foot in the door. Maybe met her in the parking lot and told her they want to talk to Roger)

I have been stuck on the following piece. I believe they were followed from Roger's work to the hotel. From the point of arrival to the point in time when they got into the room, what were the killers doing? Sitting in the car? hanging around the hallways? (would draw too much attention IMO)

How did they figure out the exact hotel number? Did they follow them all the way in when they checked in without being noticed? A bit risky.

It seems as if they would have had to learn the room later. Every room is occupied. They couldn't have just walked in behind Rose and Roger without being noticed. It seems as if when the car was moved, that would have been an opportunity. That or they learned where they were from the babysitter. Or they called the hotel and asked for the room number of the specific guests. Would a hotel give that to just anyone who asked? Of course, in a time long before cell phones, that would mean any calls made into the hotel or to the babysitter would have had to have been from a hotel phone or a payphone. As of the moment, the theory I can't help but believe is that moving the car is when they were followed in.

But the killers also didn't know the car would have to be moved, so what would their plan have been if they'd never learned the hotel number? If they followed with intent to kill, was the plan to continue to follow until the right moment presented itself? In their heads, did it have to be in the hotel, or could it have happened at any point in the weekend?

 

[mcbrainder]

It would help if we knew the exact time the car was moved. I am of the opinion that Rose moved it, which would explain why she was fully clothed if the killers came in with her.

I would also like to know the exact time Rose was in the bar and did she go alone? Like you Mcbrainder, I would really like to know who was in the bar that night, and would also love to know who and where the bartender is today and what he has to say.

I believe it was around 9:30.

Was the bar after that? Immediately after that? Was the bar visit an actual bar visit or was it Rose and/or Roger needing something from someone? Rose possibly used the hotel bar phone? Why use that when you can use the one in the room? I really feel like the bar encounter is a huge piece of the puzzle. I feel like LE dismissed the bartender as a suspect and that was that, instead of building a timeline that with the inclusion of the bar incident, could really tell the story.

 

[mysterymike]

I would agree that he may not have known for certain, but since he and Rose had been taking precautions, I think he must have known that his wife/family was onto him. He might have been somewhat staging the scene too in a way. One thing we'll never know is just what Roger believed his father in law to be capable of. He might have considered him to be a mean guy and maybe even vindictive, but would he ever have believed he could murder?

I think given what we know, one of two scenarios would have to be true. Please add to this list any other likely scenario. I just can't come up with anything else plausible.
1) The killers were let in (This could have been reluctantly. "I know you're in there. I'm not going away" kind of scenario)
2) The killers followed Rose in (maybe wedged a foot in the door. Maybe met her in the parking lot and told her they want to talk to Roger)

I have been stuck on the following piece. I believe they were followed from Roger's work to the hotel. From the point of arrival to the point in time when they got into the room, what were the killers doing? Sitting in the car? hanging around the hallways? (would draw too much attention IMO)

How did they figure out the exact hotel number? Did they follow them all the way in when they checked in without being noticed? A bit risky.

It seems as if they would have had to learn the room later. Every room is occupied. They couldn't have just walked in behind Rose and Roger without being noticed. It seems as if when the car was moved, that would have been an opportunity. That or they learned where they were from the babysitter. Or they called the hotel and asked for the room number of the specific guests. Would a hotel give that to just anyone who asked? Of course, in a time long before cell phones, that would mean any calls made into the hotel or to the babysitter would have had to have been from a hotel phone or a payphone. As of the moment, the theory I can't help but believe is that moving the car is when they were followed in.

But the killers also didn't know the car would have to be moved, so what would their plan have been if they'd never learned the hotel number? If they followed with intent to kill, was the plan to continue to follow until the right moment presented itself? In their heads, did it have to be in the hotel, or could it have happened at any point in the weekend?

Roger may not have believed daddy H of being capable of murder, but if CRH was around, I'm sure that he knew that man was capable of it.

Your 2nd scenario is more likely in my mind. If Rose moved the car at 9:30, this would have been after they ordered room service. As far as I know, no timeline of their movements can be established after the car was moved, can it? I don't remember.

Speaking of room service, did anyone actually bring any food to their room, or could it be that Rose went to the bar to get the food?

It's really tough to know for sure if at any time Roger knew he was being followed. But i agree, they were probably followed from Kahoka all the way to the motel. But the killers must have done a great job of following because that's a long time and a long ways to stalk someone without being noticed.

I would imagine the killers were just waiting around and biding their time to make their move, but of course this is all theory on my part. I agree they could have called the motel to get the room number. This is a very good possibility. And they also could have followed Rose in from the parking lot, or even the bar if she went alone. I would say either of these 2 scenarios is how they found out what room they were in.

How would have daddy H learned from the babysitter about Roger's whereabouts or room number without casting suspicion upon him?

Good question about what the killers would have did if the car wasn't moved. It is possible that the killers could have continued on following them just waiting for the opportune time, maybe not at the hotel but maybe somewhere else along their trip, and it just so happened opportunity came at the hotel itself and they took advantage of it. Just a theory.

 

[mysterymike]

Speaking of the "Calling the hotel to find out the room number" scenario. If they had done that, the person who took the call would have remembered that someone called to ask the room number of Roger and Rose, and as far as I know, no one has ever come forward to say that happened.

 

[mcbrainder]

Roger may not have believed daddy H of being capable of murder, but if CRH was around, I'm sure that he knew that man was capable of it.

Your 2nd scenario is more likely in my mind. If Rose moved the car at 9:30, this would have been after they ordered room service. As far as I know, no timeline of their movements can be established after the car was moved, can it? I don't remember.

Speaking of room service, did anyone actually bring any food to their room, or could it be that Rose went to the bar to get the food?

It's really tough to know for sure if at any time Roger knew he was being followed. But i agree, they were probably followed from Kahoka all the way to the motel. But the killers must have done a great job of following because that's a long time and a long ways to stalk someone without being noticed.

I would imagine the killers were just waiting around and biding their time to make their move, but of course this is all theory on my part. I agree they could have called the motel to get the room number. This is a very good possibility. And they also could have followed Rose in from the parking lot, or even the bar if she went alone. I would say either of these 2 scenarios is how they found out what room they were in.

How would have daddy H learned from the babysitter about Roger's whereabouts or room number without casting suspicion upon him?

Good question about what the killers would have did if the car wasn't moved. It is possible that the killers could have continued on following them just waiting for the opportune time, maybe not at the hotel but maybe somewhere else along their trip, and it just so happened opportunity came at the hotel itself and they took advantage of it. Just a theory.

I'm unclear on any room service details, other than it was ordered.

I believe they were being followed. I know it's hard to believe that someone would be followed for so far and pull it off, but how often do we really pay attention to that when we're on a long road trip? I doubt the killers wanted to be spotted, so they probably took some precautions.

I was thinking that it's also possible that instead of waiting around and biding their time, when it was discovered that Roger and Rose were getting a hotel, that's when the plan really developed. Maybe the point was to follow and make sure he was lying and cheating. Once confirmed, they could have gone and gotten supplies, even grabbed something to eat, and came back. Whatever the case, they must have known that walking into a packed hotel offered a lot of risk and potential witnesses? Were they lucky or smart?

If they were lucky, they probably just followed someone in and knocked or wedged themselves in the door.

If they were smart, they waited it out, came in through a side door, knocked late at night.

My point is that the hotel was spontaneous, but the murder probably wasn't, so the killers had to do the deed in an environment not of their choosing. They were likely forced to make decisions and in the moment, clearly weren't sloppy about it. My belief is that they were somewhat smart. Maybe one went in with Rose and signaled the other when it was late. Maybe CRH waited in the car until the other told him the coast was clear. Maybe he sent Rose out to get him, telling her if she said anything to anyone, Roger would die. Maybe she stopped at the bar on her way out and the confrontation happened.

I play a lot of scenarios in my head and they all seem to fit because unfortunately, the real substance in this case is under lock and key.

 

[mcbrainder]

I wanted to add that I have thought about publishing a book about this case. I would need more information than what's available, but I'm working on contacting some people who worked this case or have access to details. If I'm able to do that, and I can get the answers to a handful of questions, I think this would be a great True Crime book.

I also think that if I'm right in who I think it is, I would be able to confirm my theory for good. If the opposing happens and I've completely missed the mark, then I've wasted a lot of time for nothing, but it would still make a great story.

Charles Ray Hatcher was a sick individual and I think it's worthwhile to find a link, if there is one. This is unique because if he was involved, it wasn't him acting on impulse. It was him doing a favor. I've never seen anything like it.

 

[mysterymike]

I'm unclear on any room service details, other than it was ordered.

I believe they were being followed. I know it's hard to believe that someone would be followed for so far and pull it off, but how often do we really pay attention to that when we're on a long road trip? I doubt the killers wanted to be spotted, so they probably took some precautions.

I was thinking that it's also possible that instead of waiting around and biding their time, when it was discovered that Roger and Rose were getting a hotel, that's when the plan really developed. Maybe the point was to follow and make sure he was lying and cheating. Once confirmed, they could have gone and gotten supplies, even grabbed something to eat, and came back. Whatever the case, they must have known that walking into a packed hotel offered a lot of risk and potential witnesses? Were they lucky or smart?

If they were lucky, they probably just followed someone in and knocked or wedged themselves in the door.

If they were smart, they waited it out, came in through a side door, knocked late at night.

My point is that the hotel was spontaneous, but the murder probably wasn't, so the killers had to do the deed in an environment not of their choosing. They were likely forced to make decisions and in the moment, clearly weren't sloppy about it. My belief is that they were somewhat smart. Maybe one went in with Rose and signaled the other when it was late. Maybe CRH waited in the car until the other told him the coast was clear. Maybe he sent Rose out to get him, telling her if she said anything to anyone, Roger would die. Maybe she stopped at the bar on her way out and the confrontation happened.

I play a lot of scenarios in my head and they all seem to fit because unfortunately, the real substance in this case is under lock and key.

Yes, most people don't usually pay attention to whether they are being followed, but it is different in Roger's case. As you have said, the week leading up to the murders Roger was somewhat paranoid. If I were cheating on my spouse and going away for a weekend knowing my wife's family may be aware of what I was doing, I would be paranoid too, especially after having done it many times. There's been lots of times in the past when I have traveled distances where I saw the same car for quite awhile in my rearview mirror and it got my attention, until that car finally turned off to another road. Actually it happens all the time to me. And I wasn't paranoid about anything or even thinking about anyone following me, just traveling down the highway. And the killers had to stay on them pretty closely or it would have been easy to lose them, especially with traveling on several different highways.

As of right now, I believe Rose was used by the killers to gain entry inside the room, which could explain her being fully clothed and Roger in shorts. Whether that was done when she headed back to the room from moving the car or coming back from the bar or whatever, I don't know. That's debatable.

Now, where and how the bar and bartender fits into all of this is still unclear. We can theorize on the bar and bartender until we're blue in the face, but until we know more facts surrounding this part of the story, we really are just theorizing. As of right now, my theory is that the killers could fit in some way to the bar and bartender scenario. How? I have no idea right now, but I think it's a possibility.

Concerning the carved soap chips found on the hotel room floor, was there ever anything done similar to this in any of CRH's known murders? That would be great circumstantial evidence for CRH being one of the killers.

As of right now, I honestly believe there were at least 2 killers and I believe those killers came from the H family (in one way or the other) targeting Roger. They are the culprits in my opinion.

I know Roger's wife had at least one brother. Could he fit into all of this in some way?

 

[mysterymike]

I wanted to add that I have thought about publishing a book about this case. I would need more information than what's available, but I'm working on contacting some people who worked this case or have access to details. If I'm able to do that, and I can get the answers to a handful of questions, I think this would be a great True Crime book.

I also think that if I'm right in who I think it is, I would be able to confirm my theory for good. If the opposing happens and I've completely missed the mark, then I've wasted a lot of time for nothing, but it would still make a great story.

Charles Ray Hatcher was a sick individual and I think it's worthwhile to find a link, if there is one. This is unique because if he was involved, it wasn't him acting on impulse. It was him doing a favor. I've never seen anything like it.

This case would make an excellent book. Good luck on being able to do that.

I honestly believe you are spot on with your theory of who the killers are. It just makes sense.

I cannot believe only you and I and one other have discussed this case on here. This is such a fascinating case, I can't believe there aren't more interested. You don't have to be from Iowa to be interested in this one.

 

[mcbrainder]

Haha. You got me. I was even thinking while I typed that they might not have noticed that I had already stated they'd been paranoid or believed they could be followed. That said, in reviewing the timeline again, I think it's plausible to believe they didn't believe they were. Roger had spent the previous week out of town working. He was supposed to work again the next week, out of town in the same location. Roger would have ordinarily gone home but he called his wife and told her he was staying through the weekend to work. Rose picked him up in her car, from his worksite. I think after they hit the road, he may have been able to breathe a sigh of relief.

Roger was a known cheater among his friends and family. I have no doubt that his wife's reaction would be suspicion when he told her he was just going to stay for the weekend. She'd broken down crying the day before to her church group. I have no doubt as to why. I'm sure her father saw what was happening and probably was angry himself. In an article last year, Roger's wife stated that they'd just celebrated their 7 year anniversary earlier that month. Funny that she said "celebrated" when they were getting a divorce. It was his wife that continually talked him out of it, using the Bible as a reason. But Roger kept cheating and their marriage was probably deteriorating with everything Roger was doing.

I agree that the bartender thing is just a pipedream at this point. It hurts my head to think about because I feel like knowing that detail would connect about a dozen pieces of the puzzle. The only way I'll ever get that answer is through the detectives who worked the case, and believe me, I'm already trying.

Great question about the soap. I did a quick Google search and came up with nothing, but I did get to thinking that soap carving seems like the cure for boredom in prison or even in a facility and CRH was no stranger to that. I personally believe it was him who carved the soap and wrote the message.

I don't know much about the siblings. I also wish I knew more about the man the wife married within months. I've never seen that he was looked at, but he would have had a pretty good motive. For all I know, it could have been father in law and new hubby in that room.

As to your second post, I completely agree. This cold case forum doesn't seem to generate a lot of discussion--at least currently it doesn't--but this is the case I was waiting for a long time, so thanks for posting it. I swear my heart sped up the moment I saw the names on my screen.

 

[mcbrainder]

I'll share another thought I had tonight while rereading some old articles on this.

One article states that Roger's wife hired a PI to investigate and he didn't come up with anything, but he was able to help secure double-indemnity insurance that the insurance companies had not rushed to pay.

That's pretty convenient, don't you think?

Kinda seems like the reason he was hired was misrepresented. Is that something a PI would even do?

 

[CursSleuth]

I wanted to add that I have thought about publishing a book about this case. I would need more information than what's available, but I'm working on contacting some people who worked this case or have access to details. If I'm able to do that, and I can get the answers to a handful of questions, I think this would be a great True Crime book.

I also think that if I'm right in who I think it is, I would be able to confirm my theory for good. If the opposing happens and I've completely missed the mark, then I've wasted a lot of time for nothing, but it would still make a great story.

Charles Ray Hatcher was a sick individual and I think it's worthwhile to find a link, if there is one. This is unique because if he was involved, it wasn't him acting on impulse. It was him doing a favor. I've never seen anything like it.

One person that can help you is Rose's best friend, Tammy Burkman. She pursuied almost her entire life after the murders researching and trying to find answers to the case. She had built alot of info and one day it was destroyed by a fire. Don't know if someone intentionally burn it or not. I think you can contact her if you post a comment (there are comments wrote by her there) in the Iowa Cold Cases in the Roger and Rose's case offcourse.

 

[CursSleuth]

Ok my sleuth friends, Mcbrainder and MysteryMike. I did not have time to post since the last two days but read curiously all of your dissertions. I think you forgot to mention the essential question: You talked about killer, killers and CRH but forgot to ask yourselves what was the motive and who would benefit the most with them dead? There is 2 options, both qualified in the Premeditated First Degree Murder category. And boy, you cannot fall short into these 2 subjects:

First - Rose's ex-bf. We're talking of a person with sociopath tendencies and probably mental issues. He had stalked Rose, he killed her dog barbarically (or maybe not? There is info about this?) and threatened her - those type of individuals we see in movies that won't leave their ex until they're dead. And Rose's ex-bf, for me, fits in perfection when we discuss killers being following them. He could have been so obsessed, that he would follow Rose wherever she went. By killing both, Rose's ex would have his ego full of pride and joy. Not only he killed her loving (but cheating) woman, but punished also her lover and romantic competitor. How did he do it, I will not try to assumpt that right now. But the guy had two solid factors in his favour: A solid alibi and a polygraph test that didn't ratted him out. But as I said, alibis can be forged and polygraph tests can be beated. Anyway, these are trumps in his sleeve. How far police dedicated their time investigating this suspect? What was his alibi? Who corroborated it?

Second - Roger's wife. And to me this is the most winner. Roger's wife, Marcella Shat, knew he was a cheating bastard, that he wanted a divorce, that they marriage was deteorating fast, Marcella was a babysitter (not so much income if she got herself alone), she could have been feeling furious and planning beforehand. McBrainder said Roger's had two insurance policies, probably Marcella as beneficiary. (Roger had no children, right?) But offcourse, I do not think Marcella could commit a murder herself and not like what you know about the case concerning the crime scene. But for one hand, hiring someone cruel or unremorseful to do the dirty work is a complete other matter. I do not see any best candidate, other than rose's ex-bf psyche, as the most profitable subject.

If this case does not contemplate no stranger, nor a random murder then we must ask ourselves what was the MOTIVE and who was the most BENEFACTOR for these horrible homicides?

 

[CursSleuth]

McBrainder, I have read your link about CRH. After reading his "wonderful and colorful" rapsheet one only can say he was a complete Psychopath, rapist and murderer. He mostly kidnapped boys or sexually assaulted men. He also raped a female and killed alot of people. The report doesn't mention anything about this case and the timeline just reveals that he escaped from Norfolk Regional Center on September 6, 1980. By October 1980 he was once again arrested under a false name (Richard Clark) in Lincoln, Nebraska while trying to sodomize a 17 year male. Now, that time frame is interesting (Sept 6 - October 1980) since no data is available. But this could also be a deceitful factor in terms of people theorizing about him commiting the murders. If we do not have any viable lead or true fact of his innocence, he should be noticed as a potential suspect. CRH was a very violent man and when we see that the heads of Roger and Rose were caved in and sliced with brutal force using an axe-type weapon one could arguably agree that he could be a perfect match for being the unmerciful killer. But seeing his rapsheet, almost all of his crimes and offences were careless and spontaneous... which of you can think he would kill Roger and Rose just because Roger's wife asked him (even if it involved money but she only would have it available after she received the life insurance money)?

Can you guys please detail me the situation of the bartender and the bar occurrence? What time it was and what was all' bout it?

 

[CursSleuth]

The bathroom is also an interesting subject. Toothpaste inside the bathtube. This mostly means the killer had used toothpaste as solvent to remove bloodstains which no one will be arguing would have been splattered after such brutal blows being done to the victim's heads. The writing on the mirror. The word "THIS" and the subsequent illegible words written with soap bits. I do not know if the others words were deliberatily erased or faded in such small time (if we are talking about something rather a mirror dappled with hot steam, I do not believe the soap writing simply faded away with time). These circumstances shows a killer that care to spend time, confidently, in the crime scene after a double murder have been committed, in a motel full of people. But he probably knows nobody will enter sooner, because there is a "Not Disturb" sign outside, the TV is on and not loud and the clock shows a hour of comfort, a time that nobody will come to perturb the guests. But then there are the two chairs facing the side of the bed where Roger is the closest. At first sight we can picture 2 killers sitting those chairs, threatening and arguing... but the chairs could have been there since the victims entered the room (Which I think not) or the killer just put them there with that precise intention to fool authorities... or maybe the killer put them there in a ocasionally manner. either way, the chairs are other factor that makes this whole crime more intricated and perplexing.

 

[mcbrainder]

Ok my sleuth friends, Mcbrainder and MysteryMike. I did not have time to post since the last two days but read curiously all of your dissertions. I think you forgot to mention the essential question: You talked about killer, killers and CRH but forgot to ask yourselves what was the motive and who would benefit the most with them dead? There is 2 options, both qualified in the Premeditated First Degree Murder category. And boy, you cannot fall short into these 2 subjects:

First - Rose's ex-bf. We're talking of a person with sociopath tendencies and probably mental issues. He had stalked Rose, he killed her dog barbarically (or maybe not? There is info about this?) and threatened her - those type of individuals we see in movies that won't leave their ex until they're dead. And Rose's ex-bf, for me, fits in perfection when we discuss killers being following them. He could have been so obsessed, that he would follow Rose wherever she went. By killing both, Rose's ex would have his ego full of pride and joy. Not only he killed her loving (but cheating) woman, but punished also her lover and romantic competitor. How did he do it, I will not try to assumpt that right now. But the guy had two solid factors in his favour: A solid alibi and a polygraph test that didn't ratted him out. But as I said, alibis can be forged and polygraph tests can be beated. Anyway, these are trumps in his sleeve. How far police dedicated their time investigating this suspect? What was his alibi? Who corroborated it?

Second - Roger's wife. And to me this is the most winner. Roger's wife, Marcella Shat, knew he was a cheating bastard, that he wanted a divorce, that they marriage was deteorating fast, Marcella was a babysitter (not so much income if she got herself alone), she could have been feeling furious and planning beforehand. McBrainder said Roger's had two insurance policies, probably Marcella as beneficiary. (Roger had no children, right?) But offcourse, I do not think Marcella could commit a murder herself and not like what you know about the case concerning the crime scene. But for one hand, hiring someone cruel or unremorseful to do the dirty work is a complete other matter. I do not see any best candidate, other than rose's ex-bf psyche, as the most profitable subject.

If this case does not contemplate no stranger, nor a random murder then we must ask ourselves what was the MOTIVE and who was the most BENEFACTOR for these horrible homicides?

For a while, I believed it to be Rose's ex because he was by far the most able-minded (the dog incident). I dismissed him due to the alibi and I asked about the alibi and how air-tight it was. Supposedly he had been working that night and time-clock records prove it. Could that have been faked? Maybe. I would think co-workers would be able to confirm that he was missing from work for what would be better than 3-4 hours.

Additionally, he would have been the one to follow them from Roger's job and I believe there was probably at least 3-4 hours between check-in and the murder themselves, according to the time-frame. I would say between him and Roger, Rose just didn't choose them well and surrounded herself with bad company. I looked up the ex a couple years ago with the intent of contacting him. It was around that time that my opinion changed and I never did.

As far as the wife, I agree. It's been my implication throughout this thread, without ever saying it. I know she wasn't there. She was babysitting kids from her church the week before and the weekend of. Did she know what the killers would do? Maybe not. She certainly knew what they did later though and kept quiet and profited from it in more than one way.

Roger had two insurance policies on him, which she gained through a third party when they weren't paying out. She called this third party a PI, but I doubt it. She also sued the hotel for lack of security and settled out of court. She got married within months of the murder and is with the same man today--no doubt having lived some, if not all, of that time in luxury.

I haven't thought enough about how that conversation went down, if there even was one, when the brothers decided to confront Roger. Did she send them? Did father in law get enraged and tell her he'd handle it and she just stepped back and let him do his thing? Did she say "I want him dead"! If she was trying to save her marriage with religion, then she may not have been the one to prompt it, but she would have accepted the outcome, exploited it in her favor, and kept quiet about it.

 

[CursSleuth]

I believe it was around 9:30.

Was the bar after that? Immediately after that? Was the bar visit an actual bar visit or was it Rose and/or Roger needing something from someone? Rose possibly used the hotel bar phone? Why use that when you can use the one in the room? I really feel like the bar encounter is a huge piece of the puzzle. I feel like LE dismissed the bartender as a suspect and that was that, instead of building a timeline that with the inclusion of the bar incident, could really tell the story.

Did Rose went to the bar first before moving the car? Why? Any particular reason? The call from the reception was placed at 9:30 approx. Rose dresses up or she's still dressed, gets out and removes her car from the parking lot area for the handicapped. Is this the time she goes to the bar instead to room 260? But why? What followed next before she entered the room?

 

[mcbrainder]

McBrainder, I have read your link about CRH. After reading his "wonderful and colorful" rapsheet one only can say he was a complete Psychopath, rapist and murderer. He mostly kidnapped boys or sexually assaulted men. He also raped a female and killed alot of people. The report doesn't mention anything about this case and the timeline just reveals that he escaped from Norfolk Regional Center on September 6, 1980. By October 1980 he was once again arrested under a false name (Richard Clark) in Lincoln, Nebraska while trying to sodomize a 17 year male. Now, that time frame is interesting (Sept 6 - October 1980) since no data is available. But this could also be a deceitful factor in terms of people theorizing about him commiting the murders. If we do not have any viable lead or true fact of his innocence, he should be noticed as a potential suspect. CRH was a very violent man and when we see that the heads of Roger and Rose were caved in and sliced with brutal force using an axe-type weapon one could arguably agree that he could be a perfect match for being the unmerciful killer. But seeing his rapsheet, almost all of his crimes and offences were careless and spontaneous... which of you can think he would kill Roger and Rose just because Roger's wife asked him (even if it involved money but she only would have it available after she received the life insurance money)?

Can you guys please detail me the situation of the bartender and the bar occurrence? What time it was and what was all' bout it?

My opinion is that CRH was just along for the ride and to help his brother.

Again, my opinion and is only based on guesswork, but when CRH escaped, he probably didn't have anything with him. I think he probably went home, as he had many times before. If that's true, his brother (Roger's father in law) probably gave him a place to stay. Maybe even gave him money...food...etc. If that's true, there may have been some loyalty to his brother and when it hit the fan, and his brother wanted to either scare/end Roger, either CRH volunteered to go or was asked to go. If CRH had truly gone back to the family after he escaped, and the family was involved, I just don't see him staying home. It's not his MO because it's not a sick impulse on his part. It's a family favor.