ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

[detective not]

Also, I think in the next few months, while wait, everyone should review Salem Oregon stabbings. Almost certainly BK didn’t do that one, but MO so similar, and so cruel—college students in their beds, happy couple getting ready to go to Hawaii, in their beds. Could someone have masterminded the murders? Yeah, I know, I’ve watched too many Criminal Minds. But at the very least, we should know the status of that investigation to put conspiracy theories to rest, not to mention another murderer behind bars.

 

[Palinsmom]

It doesn't make sense that SG would have been allowed into the crime scene to get/access the modem or router.

I might be wrong on this, but if KG’s sister had KG’s phone they could use it with one of the available apps to check router log. When I’ve checked my connection in the past from home, I didn’t need to have physical hands on the router, I had to use my desk top and go online, you do need the router info but that should already be on her phone. I’m not sure how the apps work. I didn’t download one to my phone, but there are a variety of them available.
Speculation on my part, and just sharing some info

 

[drmrgrl]

You said "For example, on impulsiveness or compulsions, etc. I'm just trying to show how that can be helpful in understanding a killer's behavior."

If I misunderstand you, I apologize and please let me know. But what I take from this is that you're using the DSM to try to understand the killer's behavior. This is misuse of the DSM. It even says it in the book. The book was designed for clinicians and using it to understand the pathology of criminals is not its purpose.

IMO, the DSM-5 is used by Psychologists and /or psychiatrists to diagnose mental illness using various axis’. It is more challenging ie., complicated to use than you might expect.

 

[drmrgrl]

I might be totally wrong on this, but can’t phones be ordered online as well?

IMO. Yes

 

[Auntie Cipation]

JMO, but I highly doubt X ever had a relationship with BK. Not to mention if any of the girls had a previous relationship with him of any kind, we would definitely know this by now. I also would think if BK was at the frat party, someone would have identified him being there by this point.

Especially (among other reasons) since BK had only been in the Pullman/Moscow vicinity for a few months.

Barely enough time to make a connection, although I do get that having one or two dates/hookups and then breaking it off might be enough for the person to be considered "an ex".

Also agree that we would know by now if that was the case they they knew each other personally.

If BK knew any if these folks, I'd guess it was an encounter at their work or in line at the grocery etc, where maybe he tried a pickup line, didn't get any interest back, and couldn't handle that.

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Topics I'll be thinking about until we hear more:

1. THE CARS
1.1 He had to know Ethan was over - his very distinctive red jeep was parked up front and he had been watching the house. Why did this not stop him?
1.2. If he was not recording them (not ruling that out) nor stalking them that very weekend (not ruling that out either) it is very likely he did not know Kaylees new car. Why did an unknown car parked up front not stop him? It could have been like someones family visiting?
1.3 Kaylees car was returned. AFAIK, the others were not? It hints that there was no evidence in her new car, while there was evidence in the other car(s) or they did not want to risk giving them back and risking the defence claiming something about the cars that would be hard to disprove otherwise.

2. THE HVAC
The HVAC team was on the scene at the house on Dec the 5th. Now that might be totally irrelevant, as there are tons of reasons for them to be there, but as BK is supposed to have a background in HVAC, this gives me a pause. Was that not his first time in the house?

3. THE BATHROOM
Why does the affidavit (p2) mention the upstairs bathroom and the wall it shares with MMs bedroom? I mean it's not exactly smooth, the way it comes up:
"I later learned there was a dog in the room when Moscow PD officers initially responded. The dog belonged to KG and her ex-boyfriend JD. Ofc Smith the pointed out a small bathroom on the east side of the third floor. The bathroom shared a wall with MM bedroom which was situated on the south-east corner on the third floor. As I entered the bedroom, I could see two females in the single bed in the room."

4. WHEN BK MOVED TO PULLMAN
Per the affidavit (p16), he was already near the house on August 21. When talking of BKs phone being near the house: "All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days. One of these occasions, on August 21,2022 BKs phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m"
AFAIK, this was before classes even started and he was already either stalking them or at least meeting them.
4.1 This begs to ask, when and where did he became aware of his target? (From all we know, he could be the online ex-bf from 6 years ago of any of them, so the question is, how did the stalking start.).
4.2 And on what date did he actually move there?

5. DEPARTURE
5.1 How did BK know at ~2.40 (or before) that it's time to depart towards Moscow and his victim(s) is waiting at home, not at a party, at a sleepover, having a movie night with roomies, in their rooms with a hookup, on a video call etc? Like did he just take the drive with all the weapon and costume "just in case" it works out? I mean did he even have a burner phone to continue monitoring at least their online activity while his original phone was turned off?
5.2 What triggered him to attack that night? It was not ideal conditions to commit a perfect crime, that's for sure. There were 2 cars up front that could have not been there, for one.

6. THE DRIVE
6.1. What was BK doing with the weird drive to King Road? He did not even take the shortest route (Maps suggest to take the northern road by the airport - maybe avoided it due to cameras? But he was still caught on plenty...).Was he choosing this odd route to fetch something, to see something, to meet someone or to avoid to be seen by the cameras? Or something else entirely? Heck, maybe taking drugs before the "action"?
6.2 And why the circling before onset? Why not sit still and look at the house, makes way more sense somehow. Afraid of car being seen standing somewhere? But now it was seen on more cameras. I mean it's a generic car and with engine off at the night... Did he still have several options of houses to enter and was circling between them? (I personally don't think it's likely, but he could have been stalking more than one household)

BOTTOM LINE
All in all, I am still leaning towards there being a specific motive. IMO, as soon as people heard "a phd student in criminology" they jumped into "serial killer", "well planned", "psychopath", "just wanted to kill". If we could just for a moment ignore what he did in academia and think afresh. Like what would you think with the same evidence had it been told that the prep was a 28 year old male who had previously worked at a pizza place, possibly had a history of drug abuse and other mental illness and had just moved cross-country from his family. He drives to crime scene with his own car, enters the home of 5 young females while a visitor is obviously over, looses the cover of his murder weapon next to a victim, leaves DNA, video and phone evidence and even an eye witness.
Would your first thought still be "serial killer mastermind human hunter very well planned, only killed because he wanted to kill and to commit a perfect crime"? Because mine sure is not.

I think he had a specific motive, was fuelled by rage, acted irrationally that night due to a specific trigger and maybe had been stalking at least one of them via some sort of audio/video recording devices on their car(s) and/or in the HVAC system. I also think the crime scene was more graphic than just stabbing and probably only towards one victim with also possibly a trophy of some sort collected.

All MOO unless linked data.

I am in awe of your thorough and very interesting post. Thank you so much!

 

[jepop]

IMO, the DSM-5 is used by Psychologists and /or psychiatrists to diagnose mental illness using various axis’. It is more challenging ie., complicated to use than you might expect.

Agree, and it is used in consultation with the actual person/client/patient. MOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Topics I'll be thinking about until we hear more:

1. THE CARS
1.1 He had to know Ethan was over - his very distinctive red jeep was parked up front and he had been watching the house. Why did this not stop him?
1.2. If he was not recording them (not ruling that out) nor stalking them that very weekend (not ruling that out either) it is very likely he did not know Kaylees new car. Why did an unknown car parked up front not stop him? It could have been like someones family visiting?
1.3 Kaylees car was returned. AFAIK, the others were not? It hints that there was no evidence in her new car, while there was evidence in the other car(s) or they did not want to risk giving them back and risking the defence claiming something about the cars that would be hard to disprove otherwise.

2. THE HVAC
The HVAC team was on the scene at the house on Dec the 5th. Now that might be totally irrelevant, as there are tons of reasons for them to be there, but as BK is supposed to have a background in HVAC, this gives me a pause. Was that not his first time in the house?

3. THE BATHROOM
Why does the affidavit (p2) mention the upstairs bathroom and the wall it shares with MMs bedroom? I mean it's not exactly smooth, the way it comes up:
"I later learned there was a dog in the room when Moscow PD officers initially responded. The dog belonged to KG and her ex-boyfriend JD. Ofc Smith the pointed out a small bathroom on the east side of the third floor. The bathroom shared a wall with MM bedroom which was situated on the south-east corner on the third floor. As I entered the bedroom, I could see two females in the single bed in the room."

4. WHEN BK MOVED TO PULLMAN
Per the affidavit (p16), he was already near the house on August 21. When talking of BKs phone being near the house: "All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days. One of these occasions, on August 21,2022 BKs phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m"
AFAIK, this was before classes even started and he was already either stalking them or at least meeting them.
4.1 This begs to ask, when and where did he became aware of his target? (From all we know, he could be the online ex-bf from 6 years ago of any of them, so the question is, how did the stalking start.).
4.2 And on what date did he actually move there?

5. DEPARTURE
5.1 How did BK know at ~2.40 (or before) that it's time to depart towards Moscow and his victim(s) is waiting at home, not at a party, at a sleepover, having a movie night with roomies, in their rooms with a hookup, on a video call etc? Like did he just take the drive with all the weapon and costume "just in case" it works out? I mean did he even have a burner phone to continue monitoring at least their online activity while his original phone was turned off?
5.2 What triggered him to attack that night? It was not ideal conditions to commit a perfect crime, that's for sure. There were 2 cars up front that could have not been there, for one.

6. THE DRIVE
6.1. What was BK doing with the weird drive to King Road? He did not even take the shortest route (Maps suggest to take the northern road by the airport - maybe avoided it due to cameras? But he was still caught on plenty...).Was he choosing this odd route to fetch something, to see something, to meet someone or to avoid to be seen by the cameras? Or something else entirely? Heck, maybe taking drugs before the "action"?
6.2 And why the circling before onset? Why not sit still and look at the house, makes way more sense somehow. Afraid of car being seen standing somewhere? But now it was seen on more cameras. I mean it's a generic car and with engine off at the night... Did he still have several options of houses to enter and was circling between them? (I personally don't think it's likely, but he could have been stalking more than one household)

BOTTOM LINE
All in all, I am still leaning towards there being a specific motive. IMO, as soon as people heard "a phd student in criminology" they jumped into "serial killer", "well planned", "psychopath", "just wanted to kill". If we could just for a moment ignore what he did in academia and think afresh. Like what would you think with the same evidence had it been told that the prep was a 28 year old male who had previously worked at a pizza place, possibly had a history of drug abuse and other mental illness and had just moved cross-country from his family. He drives to crime scene with his own car, enters the home of 5 young females while a visitor is obviously over, looses the cover of his murder weapon next to a victim, leaves DNA, video and phone evidence and even an eye witness.
Would your first thought still be "serial killer mastermind human hunter very well planned, only killed because he wanted to kill and to commit a perfect crime"? Because mine sure is not.

I think he had a specific motive, was fuelled by rage, acted irrationally that night due to a specific trigger and maybe had been stalking at least one of them via some sort of audio/video recording devices on their car(s) and/or in the HVAC system. I also think the crime scene was more graphic than just stabbing and probably only towards one victim with also possibly a trophy of some sort collected.

All MOO unless linked data.

Re #4, BK's arrival at Pullman.

A thought: Is there a chance he visited Pullman/Moscow prior to his cross-country move, like maybe at the time he applied to the program, to see if he would like it there? Like most of us do when applying to a college. He could theoretically have encountered either a King Road housemate or the house itself at that time (someone many threads ago speculated that maybe BK had even applied to live there but was rejected. Ten to fifteen minute drive to U of W isn't far at all so that seems possible).

 

[AlisRedHat]

two reasons why I respectfully disagree imo:

there is almost no chance BK was at that fraternity party. Fraternities do not let random men into their parties.

and X and E had been dating for far longer than BK had lived in Washington. So him being an ex is extraordinarily unlikely as well.

I’ve been to several frat parties (in the past) where anyone is welcome Including guys from other frats.

 

[jepop]

And burners can be purchased everywhere. I can't help but wonder why he wouldn't have been using a burner phone all along.

Yes, that's the puzzler, also when talking did he/didn't he ditch phone post Nov 14. And if he did, too little too late! Sometimes when speculating my mind says, it must be because he really thought LE would be super incompetent.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Surely he was either pinging somewhere else - or he got a new phone? And if so, they'll just get another warrant and build a new picture.

Oh, so sorry, I was speaking to cell data. Anytime he was creating cellular data, whether it was his phone, work computers, home devices, etc. The authorities have collected all of that, moo. And I can't wait until Mar 1 to see what's in those sealed warrants.

 

[layer]

I might be wrong on this, but if KG’s sister had KG’s phone they could use it with one of the available apps to check router log. When I’ve checked my connection in the past from home, I didn’t need to have physical hands on the router, I had to use my desk top and go online, you do need the router info but that should already be on her phone. I’m not sure how the apps work. I didn’t download one to my phone, but there are a variety of them available.
Speculation on my part, and just sharing some info

Interesting speculation! Though A didn't have K's phone, she used the family password to get access to the phone records through the provider.

 

[Deleted member 718]

When did BK move to Pullman? His professor at DeSales said he took online classes and she never met him. He could have been living there for over a year.

Idaho 'killer' a brilliant student, says his criminology professor

DeSales University Professor Michelle Bolger said she's in absolute shock after hearing that her former student Bryan Kohberger is the accused Idaho quadruple murder suspect.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Bolger, 33, who has been an Associate Professor at DeSales for the past eight years, said she taught Kohberger, 28, last year in an online class and helped him with his master's thesis project.

'He was an online student in the criminal justice master's degree program and graduated in June 2022,' said Bolger.

'I never saw him in person, I couldn't tell you how tall he was or how much he weighed, my only interaction with him was via email and Zoom,' Bolger told DailyMail.com. 'I didn't know anything about him, whether he was married, had a girlfriend, etc.'

 

[Palinsmom]

When most of us think about relationships we share some type of genuine connection. Time spent together, conversations, common activities, and these are mutual.

For some individuals this is not so. For whatever reason in their minds they perceive a relationship that is not there. The person whom this individual has zeroed in on in this imaginary relationship has no idea that this individual thinks that they are in a relationship.

I recently watched a documentary series on Netflix about stalkers. Some admit they realize now they were wrong, but still, even while in prison being interviewed don’t consider what they did was wrong and are in denial about the fact that there never was a relationship.

My opinion only/speculation, we are guessing right now until we have more details: I think that possibly if any one of the victims made eye contact with BK or was simply nice to him, if his mindset was anything like other stalkers he could have perceived that brief encounter as permission for a relationship. Reality of course would be that there never was a relationship or the victims even not being aware that their kindness was being warped in his mind. When he isn’t acknowledged ( because the victim has no idea that BK thinks there is a relationship) he becomes increasingly angry……

All speculation/opinion

Sorry if choppy, page keeps reloading and changing my words.

 

[Wishbone]

When most of us think about relationships we share some type of genuine connection. Time spent together, conversations, common activities, and these are mutual.

For some individuals this is not so. For whatever reason in their minds they perceive a relationship that is not there. The person whom this individual has zeroed in on in this imaginary relationship has no idea that this individual thinks that they are in a relationship.

I recently watched a documentary series on Netflix about stalkers. Some admit they realize now they were wrong, but still, even while in prison being interviewed don’t consider what they did was wrong and are in denial about the fact that there never was a relationship.

My opinion only/speculation, we are guessing right now until we have more details: I think that possibly if any one of the victims made eye contact with BK or was simply nice to him, if his mindset was anything like other stalkers he could have perceived that brief encounter as permission for a relationship. Reality of course would be that there never was a relationship or the victims even not being aware that their kindness was being warped in his mind. When he isn’t acknowledged ( because the victim has no idea that BK thinks there is a relationship) he becomes increasingly angry……

All speculation/opinion

Sorry if choppy, page keeps reloading and changing my words.

That's some scary stuff....might be how some stalkers think

 

[Palinsmom]

Interesting speculation! Though A didn't have K's phone, she used the family password to get access to the phone records through the provider.

Thank you. I didn’t realize that.

 

[Imogenia]

I feel compelled to respond. And I will say I completely disagree about amateur use of DSM. Let me preface this by saying that I have done field diagnostics for research that supports DSM. At the beginning of my psychiatric research, I thought the same ("Everyone is in DSM.")

But spend one day in a major psychiatric clinic OR in an inpatient unit and you'll see that it's not true. The public uses phrases from DSM all the time, as descriptors.

That's not the design of DSM nor should we be using it that way,

At any rate, BK's diagnosis (VSS) is a neurological disorder, which causes perceptual disturbance. The term "mentally ill" has little meaning, but in general, most psychiatrists will tell you they treat "mental illness" and that neurologists treat VSS and similar syndromes.

Can someone have both psychiatric symptoms AND a neurological disorder? Yes.

ANYWAY, last night I realized that I"m not interested in diagnosing BK, per se. So I resoundingly agree with you. I want to eliminate the neurological (and the upbringing part, if any) in order to contemplate just what it is that makes some into a mass murderer/wannabe serial killer.

And while we cannot and have not ruled out characterological disorders (personality disorders), that group of descriptors gets us closer to the problem of evil. Modern psychiatric and psychology are in big debates about the problem of evil - just as we are, here.

For me, what's left over when we rule out neurological and mental health disorders (if any) is the problem of what causes a BK. I've added in "life stressors" to my own personal rubric because mentally fragile people do behave in reactive ways sometimes, if they are pushed past their limits (which by definitions are not the same as for the rest of us).

I'm fine with "Evil" being the category to which we assign this small segment of horrible monsters. Does someone set out to be Evil? Does it just befall them? Is there some demon or spiritual entity that imposes itself on them (as implied by folk literature on Evil)?

We're left with this mysterious force or thing called Evil. But what is it?? Is it just a residual category of the rest?

Naturally, we are left pondering our fellow humans, but I do not believe that each person is capable of the evil that BK inflicted. Not at all. There are predisposing conditions and some of us (many of us) are incapable of doing what he did. I reject entirely the idea that *anyone* could suddenly become a BK (and by so doing, I also reject nihilism - because if true, if we can ALL be as Evil, then all hope is lost and everything is meaningless - just as BK claimed as a teenager) That make us all just "sacks of meat" capable of anything, without souls or anchors or inner meaning. Which is how he felt.

I have never felt that way. And when I'm dead, I hope someone points out that not only did I never plan or contemplate killing or violently attacking anyone, not in this lifetime. I've got a few years to go - but pretty sure I'm going to get through the rest of my life without becoming a mass murderer.

Most people do. We should be marveling at how most of us are NOT evil. I fear that young people may actually buy into this idea, which is so depressing (that we are all equally capable of Evil). I should also add that these are moral and spiritual questions, so everyone is entitled to their view.

But, I totally agree with you that the Mental Health Model (or the Physical Health Model) do not adequately explain BK and that he is a candidate to be called Evil. I might not have agreed 30 years ago, but I do now.

Anyway, the intent of this post is to cheer you up, because occasionally I go to the same place as you have. But I'm convinced that most of us are not capable of this degree of Evil - I just don't know why BK has been capable. Mental health issues/neuro issues do NOT explain it. I just need to pare it down to what remains.

Where does Evil reside?

This is all very fascinating, not least because we should perhaps consider a spiritual dimension. Maybe we should listen to what the person says, eg re the ‘screaming demons’ in Bryan’s earlier TapATalk writings, and what BTK said about his demon, (Factor X). I think BTK (much later) said there were actually two demons, the other called ‘Batter’. I recall his Lutheran pastor visiting him after his arrest, and opining that Mr Rader was possessed by a demon.

I certainly agree that we are all not capable of the horrific acts engaged in by the likes of murderers such as these.

Some of us might even be brave enough to confront, maybe putting our own lives at risk, if we witnessed or suspected evil activity.

I am still thinking about some points you made in earlier posts. For instance, I am looking up information on the 1960s university sniper, Mr Whitman, with whom you drew a possible parallel with the current case. He seemed to have insight that there was something going awry in his brain, writing that he hoped an autopsy would be done. Neither he nor the doctor he consulted could seem to stop either the murderous fantasies, or him from ultimately killing. A tumour was indeed found post mortem, pressing on the amygdala. We cannot reasonably look at diagnostic events of the 1960s with 2023 spectacles, the doctor would not have had an armoury of tests such as functional MRI scans with which to see into the brain. Providing some Valium and a follow up appointment may have seemed reasonable. Whether this arguably increased the rage I do not know.

 

[Beth11311]

You had asked about toxicology reports in the last thread (sorry don't know how to bring a post forward yet, still learning)
Found this article this morning. It was in the discovery request.

Bryan Kohberger Files Request Seeking Results of All Drug Tests Conducted During Idaho Murder Investigation

Bryan Kohberger wants all drug tests as well as "types of testing performed in this case, testing procedures, reagents and/or solvents used in testing, comparative analyses performed, and number of experiments performed in each test."

www.insideedition.com

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/011023%20Request%20for%20Discovery.pdf

Oh dear god of course he does. I feel like in terms of what we may see at trial, we could have a bit of a Ted Bundy display on our hands. He’s not wrong for asking for those things, he’s quite smart to do so…but he’s ready to poke holes in everything, seems to already have the knowledge regarding what to request (I mean dude wants to know what regents and solvents were used in the testing to show the DNA results are questionable at best, wrong at the worst) and at the very least create as much reasonable doubt as possible, and it makes me feel a bit squeamish to be honest.

 

[NCgardener]

You said "For example, on impulsiveness or compulsions, etc. I'm just trying to show how that can be helpful in understanding a killer's behavior."

If I misunderstand you, I apologize and please let me know. But what I take from this is that you're using the DSM to try to understand the killer's behavior. This is misuse of the DSM. It even says it in the book. The book was designed for clinicians and using it to understand the pathology of criminals is not its purpose.

Impulsiveness is not listed as a disorder, for the record. And The DSM is not the only place actual disorders in it are mentioned. I never said we should go through it like it's a Cosmo quiz, lol

The research behind the disorders and various symptom clusters grouped by other names in other resources is all very interesting, especially when researchers have already applied it to types of murderers, imo! I do think it can help understand the kind of abnormal psychology that is often at play with killers. That's not diagnosis. "Often," "types," "clusters," etc are the kind of words that should come up the whole time, definitely.

But I was originally responding to someone saying it *doesn't help understand killings,* remember. Context is important. I'm not going to discuss conditions outside of MSM and his posts and that's not what I'm saying in these responses.

 

[Sundog]

When did BK move to Pullman? His professor at DeSales said he took online classes and she never met him. He could have been living there for over a year.

Idaho 'killer' a brilliant student, says his criminology professor

DeSales University Professor Michelle Bolger said she's in absolute shock after hearing that her former student Bryan Kohberger is the accused Idaho quadruple murder suspect.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Bolger, 33, who has been an Associate Professor at DeSales for the past eight years, said she taught Kohberger, 28, last year in an online class and helped him with his master's thesis project.

'He was an online student in the criminal justice master's degree program and graduated in June 2022,' said Bolger.

'I never saw him in person, I couldn't tell you how tall he was or how much he weighed, my only interaction with him was via email and Zoom,' Bolger told DailyMail.com. 'I didn't know anything about him, whether he was married, had a girlfriend, etc.'

I haven't seen any mention of whether BK took all online classes during his Master's degree program at DeSales, or possibly just this one online class with Bolger. She referred to "an" online class. I have the impression that he also took in-person classes during his degree program but don't know for sure if that is the case.

EBM