ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

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  • #461
I feel compelled to respond. And I will say I completely disagree about amateur use of DSM. Let me preface this by saying that I have done field diagnostics for research that supports DSM. At the beginning of my psychiatric research, I thought the same ("Everyone is in DSM.")

But spend one day in a major psychiatric clinic OR in an inpatient unit and you'll see that it's not true. The public uses phrases from DSM all the time, as descriptors.

That's not the design of DSM nor should we be using it that way,

At any rate, BK's diagnosis (VSS) is a neurological disorder, which causes perceptual disturbance. The term "mentally ill" has little meaning, but in general, most psychiatrists will tell you they treat "mental illness" and that neurologists treat VSS and similar syndromes.

Can someone have both psychiatric symptoms AND a neurological disorder? Yes.

ANYWAY, last night I realized that I"m not interested in diagnosing BK, per se. So I resoundingly agree with you. I want to eliminate the neurological (and the upbringing part, if any) in order to contemplate just what it is that makes some into a mass murderer/wannabe serial killer.

And while we cannot and have not ruled out characterological disorders (personality disorders), that group of descriptors gets us closer to the problem of evil. Modern psychiatric and psychology are in big debates about the problem of evil - just as we are, here.

For me, what's left over when we rule out neurological and mental health disorders (if any) is the problem of what causes a BK. I've added in "life stressors" to my own personal rubric because mentally fragile people do behave in reactive ways sometimes, if they are pushed past their limits (which by definitions are not the same as for the rest of us).

I'm fine with "Evil" being the category to which we assign this small segment of horrible monsters. Does someone set out to be Evil? Does it just befall them? Is there some demon or spiritual entity that imposes itself on them (as implied by folk literature on Evil)?

We're left with this mysterious force or thing called Evil. But what is it?? Is it just a residual category of the rest?

Naturally, we are left pondering our fellow humans, but I do not believe that each person is capable of the evil that BK inflicted. Not at all. There are predisposing conditions and some of us (many of us) are incapable of doing what he did. I reject entirely the idea that *anyone* could suddenly become a BK (and by so doing, I also reject nihilism - because if true, if we can ALL be as Evil, then all hope is lost and everything is meaningless - just as BK claimed as a teenager) That make us all just "sacks of meat" capable of anything, without souls or anchors or inner meaning. Which is how he felt.

I have never felt that way. And when I'm dead, I hope someone points out that not only did I never plan or contemplate killing or violently attacking anyone, not in this lifetime. I've got a few years to go - but pretty sure I'm going to get through the rest of my life without becoming a mass murderer.

Most people do. We should be marveling at how most of us are NOT evil. I fear that young people may actually buy into this idea, which is so depressing (that we are all equally capable of Evil). I should also add that these are moral and spiritual questions, so everyone is entitled to their view.

But, I totally agree with you that the Mental Health Model (or the Physical Health Model) do not adequately explain BK and that he is a candidate to be called Evil. I might not have agreed 30 years ago, but I do now.

Anyway, the intent of this post is to cheer you up, because occasionally I go to the same place as you have. But I'm convinced that most of us are not capable of this degree of Evil - I just don't know why BK has been capable. Mental health issues/neuro issues do NOT explain it. I just need to pare it down to what remains.

Where does Evil reside?
BRAVO! My goodness all of this resonated with what I feel, believe, what have you. Best post of my life. Just had to give props where they’re due, this REALLY spoke to me. Thank you for making my month.
 
  • #462
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  • #463
n't seen any mention of whether BK took all online classes during his Master's degree program at DeSales, or possibly just this one online class with Bolger. She referred to "an" online class. I have the impression that he also took in-person classes during his degree program but don't know for sure if that is the case.

EBM
It would be interesting to find out! The Juetten stabbings were in late 2021. I still kind of wonder if he could have done those if he had any reason to be in the region in that timeframe (and if they don't have DNA that doesn't match him, of course).
 
  • #464
Oh dear god of course he does. I feel like in terms of what we may see at trial, we could have a bit of a Ted Bundy display on our hands. He’s not wrong for asking for those things, he’s quite smart to do so…but he’s ready to poke holes in everything, seems to already have the knowledge regarding what to request (I mean dude wants to know what regents and solvents were used in the testing to show the DNA results are questionable at best, wrong at the worst) and at the very least create as much reasonable doubt as possible, and it makes me feel a bit squeamish to be honest.
That article didn't quite write it very clearly. It made it sound like he was requesting the reagents for all testing. I went back and reread the PCA, and reagents are only mentioned under the section titled "Drug tests."

"16. Drug tests. Provide a copy of all documentation generated as a result of performed drug tests by the State’s agent for drug identification purposes, including types of testing performed in this case, testing procedures, reagents and/or solvents used in testing, comparative analyses performed, and number of experiments performed in each test."
 
  • #465
Something I’m curious about - and I apologize if this has already been discussed as I haven’t been able to keep up - threads are flying - but the PCA mentioned another security cam picking up a whimper or a cry and then a loud thud. I can’t see penetrating someone with a knife resulting in a loud thud, but none of the victims had blunt force trauma - that we’ve heard of, anyways. Thoughts on the loud thud?
 
  • #466
I wonder if his coursework even covered some of this stuff that looks so dumb?

I'm sure it probably wouldn't have çovered how a lot of phones keep wi-fi and Bluetooth on in airplane mode nowadays. I had no idea they did that, either! Some of the phone and network technology might move too quickly to cover well and doesn't sound as academic as I imagine a doctorate in his field might sound like?
 
  • #467
Something I’m curious about - and I apologize if this has already been discussed as I haven’t been able to keep up - threads are flying - but the PCA mentioned another security cam picking up a whimper or a cry and then a loud thud. I can’t see penetrating someone with a knife resulting in a loud thud, but none of the victims had blunt force trauma - that we’ve heard of, anyways. Thoughts on the loud thud?
Imo, maybe furniture falling over with X and E? Or maybe the sliding glass door shutting hard.
 
  • #468
Especially (among other reasons) since BK had only been in the Pullman/Moscow vicinity for a few months.

Barely enough time to make a connection, although I do get that having one or two dates/hookups and then breaking it off might be enough for the person to be considered "an ex".

Also agree that we would know by now if that was the case they they knew each other personally.

If BK knew any if these folks, I'd guess it was an encounter at their work or in line at the grocery etc, where maybe he tried a pickup line, didn't get any interest back, and couldn't handle that.

MOO


JMO - My feeling, there might be no personal connection between BK and the victims to be ever found. BK, very likely, has intense imaginary world, as his self-dialoguing might indicate. The void made by detachment from real people that is filled in by fantasy is not uncommon. I imagine how he was driving around Pullman and Moscow at night, insomnia and unspent nervous energy can do it to people. And maybe, there were certain delusions of reference, triggered by something in the house. "Good vibes" sign comes to mind as the potential trigger, or something equally likable. (It was a party house, but females living there had good taste and made it welcoming, it seems). I wonder if BK sipmply weaved what he liked as a specific "signal" into his dream world? Maybe he was coming to the house before to dream? For a planned murder, he organized it badly. But if it was planned as abduction, and went aside because the inhabitants lived in the real world, and reacted to the break-in and an armed monster accordingly, to me it looks plausible. JMHO, we are all guessing the motives here.
 
  • #469
Something I’m curious about - and I apologize if this has already been discussed as I haven’t been able to keep up - threads are flying - but the PCA mentioned another security cam picking up a whimper or a cry and then a loud thud. I can’t see penetrating someone with a knife resulting in a loud thud, but none of the victims had blunt force trauma - that we’ve heard of, anyways. Thoughts on the loud thud?
My thoughts about loud thud:
- Xana being thrown on the floor as she was found on the floor
- Maybe a brief struggle with Xana where she was slammed against the wall
- Xana might've been pushed against the wall then thrown on the floor
- Maybe a shelf or something heavy was knocked down or against a wall (bed?) in a brief struggle

JMO, MOO
 
  • #470

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

... who knows what BK was thinking about any of the female victims if he was stalking and/or infatuated with even one of them.

I had a stalker when I was 21. Same personality type as BK (loner, socially awkward with women type, nervy) from what we've heard of BK. I served my stalker at a pub maybe 3 times only, it was an impersonal but friendly (because I was a server and like that with everyone) interaction. He asked me out, I said I was seeing someone (but I wasn't). He followed me home from work and followed my roommate and her boyfriend around too. It went on... He told his coworkers I was his girlfriend, I was stressing him out and that's why he was fired! Police were involved and I got a peace bond (in Canada).

I know we're not allowed to get personal on here but my point is - it was unbelievable my stalker had concocted this story that we were in a relationship! I think he thought that was his reality. No idea, but no one really knows what people like BK are thinking, believing and living in their reality. It's quite frightening! JMO, MOO
 
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  • #471
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

... who knows what BK was thinking about any of the female victims if he was stalking and/or infatuated with even one of them.

I had a stalker when I was 21. Same personality type as BK (loner, socially awkward with women type, nervy) from what we've heard of BK. I served my stalker at a pub maybe 3 times only, it was an impersonal but friendly (because I was a server and like that with everyone) interaction. He asked me out, I said I was seeing someone (but I wasn't). He followed me home from work and followed my roommate and her boyfriend around too. It went on... He told his coworkers I was his girlfriend, I was stressing him out and that's why he was fired! Police were involved and I got a peace bond (in Canada).

I know we're not allowed to get personal on here but my point is - it was unbelievable my stalker had concocted this story that we were in a relationship! I think he thought that was his reality. No idea, but no one really knows what people like BK are thinking, believing and living in their reality. It's quite frightening! JMO, MOO
I agree, none of us can really know what was/is going on in BK's head, especially at this juncture. I'm so sorry you experienced being stalked :-(. Healing is hard IMO, an ongoing journey.
 
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  • #472
"Vehicle 1" Why the Number?
Why vehicle 1??
Are there other suspect vehicles.... 2/3?
Snipped for focus. @Dotta
Imo, simply allows for POSSIBILITY of LE finding/learning of another vehicle somehow being involved in the crime.

For ex., BCK borrowed friend's vehicle or rented a vehicle which he used before, during. or after crime.
Or a vehicle that someone aiding or abetting in the crimes used.
Or a vehicle that a co-conspirator used.

adding anumber to suspect vehicle (as done here) does not necessarily mean that there is a suspect vehicle 2. At least not yet.

^ May already have been explained. I'm waaay behind on the thread.
imo jmo moo
 
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  • #473
maybe he was on their social media while they were posting to it...do we know if he ever posted to their SM? And curious if the 12 visits correspond to anything- Fri nights? something KG or MM posted? any pattern?
Here's another thought - what if BCK sent one or more of the roommates an email or text under some false pretense that had spyware attached to it? Then, spyware would have infected their device and he could read virtually every word they typed into their phones?
 
  • #474
I don’t think he would have stood out as a customer at the grocery store IMO.
He had to have changed clothes somewhere or else he would have stood out because he would have been covered in blood.
 
  • #475
For sure, in PCA they say "unknown items" but I agree, LE know by now what he purchased on afternoon of Nov 13th. MOO
Especially because in the news article posted above, it says that the FBI went to the Albertson's to get their surveillance tapes.
 
  • #476
The medical examiner would know how quickly they died and they don’t lie to victims families to make them feel better.

So many people don’t realize just how large that knife is. The blade of that particular knife is 7” long.

I wasn't doubting the victims died quickly, just trying to lay out the possibilities in what is, at best, a second-hand account.

Forgive my Big City snobbery, but while I am impressed by the Moscow coroner's high regard for education, I'm not sure a nurse/defense attorney can be lumped in with "medical examiners" as a class of experts. I don't mean this as an attack on her, but neither you nor I know her nor what she might say under the existing conditions. I won't assume a coroner who isn't a doctor follows the same rules as a Cyril Wecht or Michael Baden (who have both been criticized for some of THEIR statements, BTW).

ETA: I used the term "medical examiner" for the coroner in Moscow. She is not an ME, which is one reason why the autopsies were done in Spokane. I apologize for the error. I have corrected my paragraph above, putting the corrected term in italics.
 
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  • #477
He had to have changed clothes somewhere or else he would have stood out because he would have been covered in blood.
Indeed! Can't pick up the tone of your comment but...per PCA, he'd been home since c5.25am Nov 13th, out briefly c9-9.30am, then home then out again at about 12/12.20pm,IMO IIRC. Ref: PCA. So seems he would have changed, if that's not stating the obvious! MOO
 
  • #478
I agree, none of us can really know what was/is going on in BK's head, especially at this juncture. I'm so sorry you experienced being stalked :-(. Healing is hard IMO, an ongoing journey.
Thank you :) I only brought it up because I still think possible a service industry connection from where one of the girls worked.

Hypothetical: even if BK had 1, 2, 3 or 4 brief interactions with one of the victims and them asking "how are you doing today?" and him saying "tired, studying too hard" and her quipping back "well, that's too bad. Hopefully you get more sleep and get some rest!" (which is something I might say to a customer to develop a rapport) - in his mind he thinks she deeply cares about him and his well being (or something like that).

Then he gets creepy/awkward by 3rd or 4th interaction and she "rejects" him by being aloof, unfriendly and disengaged... could be enough for him to feel jilted. Then he stews on it, obsesses, resents, blame her for everything wrong in his life as things come to a head, etc. etc. etc. JMO, MOO
 
  • #479
Especially because in the news article posted above, it says that the FBI went to the Albertson's to get their surveillance tapes.
For sure, makes sense, can't imagine why the FBI wouldn't, it would have been jumped on straight away, IMO.
 
  • #480
I recall when Ed Wallace* was asked why LE might have called in HVAC - back in early December - he said wtte of ' that's desperate' ( He meant that forensic bio collection mustn't be going well if they're resorting to taking filters. He didn't believe it could be going that badly or that the perp would be in the full PPE)

* EDWARD W. WALLACE JR.
Is he Chris Wallace brother? Ed Wallece Sr son too like Chris?
 
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