ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

[SuziQ]

Thank you! So I take this to mean that when authorities say the Moscow Murders were "targeted" - they mean predatory/planned as opposed to impulsive/reactive. In other words, the murders were not spontaneous, emotion-driven, impulsive crimes emanating from a person's immediate anger or fear.

It could be planned or not. Imo.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

@UnapologeticallyAspie suggested that I repost my original comment here instead of in the poll thread.

It's my first comment ever on ws, and although I would modify a little based on new info, we have little new info, so it wouldn't change much. Def would change type of suit, add in shoe type, update the K&M scenario, but overall, still stand on this, and as I consider new theories (from the butler to the roommates to drug dealers), I try to walk through all of the steps, pre-offense to post, and none of the others get me to a complete, logical outcome. I appreciate logic process/outcome, so wonder what others think (not just guesses at who did it, but the thought process and details).


First post, so I hope I don't mess this up, and I apologize for the length but I just wanted to get all the comments from my head into one place. I’ve been watching and reading (though unable to keep up it’s moving so fast). JMO: I do not think that this was an acquaintance who just got upset. I do not think this was just a jealous boyfriend. It takes more than fortitude to slaughter four people in this style. The fact that an obvious suspect has not been identified means that these murders are different than the norm, and today's pc didn't dissuade me from my opinion, but ICBW & hope I am.

I think this guy is a prepared thrill killer/serial guy who has been watching and waiting for a while. He may have left a lot of DNA from the victims and a bloody mess, but the “mess” seems to have been limited to the areas where the murders took place, not all over the house. Here are some thoughts and what may be a plausible scenario.

It’s not his first killing. Animals, of course, but (and this is only a guess), there is also at least one human victim prior to this. Those humans would may be those unlikely to be missed (homeless, prostitute, etc.), taken so that he could practice his trade unnoticed. Obvs in another town, maybe another state. This killing, though, I think he wanted to announce his presence to authorities, show how smart and skilled he is, esp if he didn't get enough notice before. Four people-that's brazen, that's a big calling card. Maybe that’s why LE (via the families, etc.) used the “made a mess” statement to bait him, hoping he'd respond. He’ll love all of the focus, but maybe irked by that “sloppy” remark, because (his thinking) if he’s so sloppy, why no footprints in and out? Why wasn’t there blood on the doors? How did he murder four people so easily and leave no obvious signs for the two he left alive?

He’d have watched, waited, practiced. From the wooded area behind the house at night, from social venues where he was able to unobtrusively follow these girls. On social media. He’d have eaten at the Mad Greek to see them in person. Paid cash, of course. He’d have done several recons to make sure he knew their patterns. He may have even been in the house when they were gone.

He’d have a full kit packed -a small, unobtrusive backpack. Shoe covers, maybe a buzz cut, but not totally shaved head and hair net w/double-sided wig tape to scalp so it couldn’t fall off, OVOS gloves, mask (don’t want to leave spittle). I think he’d go early and on foot for most or all of the way. He’d wait in the wooded area behind the house, prep there, not wait in the house, because of risk of discovery. Easier to get in while they’re asleep rather than get out if discovered while they were still awake. Getting caught for a B&E would ruin his future plans.

I think he’d have gone in through the second floor sliding door after he was sure everyone was asleep, not through the first door with the keypad, even though he might know their code. I believe the first floor only has one possible exit. He would not let himself be trapped. On the second floor, he would have three potential door exits. Even on the 3rd floor, more options and he’s in good shape, so he could jump from the third story window or deck, if needed.

He’d go to the second floor bedroom first. E, the biggest and potentially undesirable victim. He'd cut arteries & vocal chords. Even if E woke up and fought, it would not be for long. Same with X to silence her, but she fought back. He might even have pre-cut duct tape for over the mouths. The police are saying no one was bound and gagged, but did anyone ask about adhesive residue? Or tape left over the mouths?

After he finished, he’d have wipes in his kit to clean gloves, suit, etc. & he’d make sure he had everything counted. That’s why he practiced. He’d put on clean shoe covers he’d brought. Sounds dramatic, but maybe even a hazmat suit or fresh pullover. No need to leave a blood trail in the hall if he can help it. He’d lock the door as he goes out. He’d even use a wipe to open the door and shut it. Why leave a bloody print? He’s visualized this so many times mentally, he is relatively calm.

On the third floor, he knows no one will hear him. He can elaborate there. Possibly a quick piece of tape over the mouth. (I think this may be where he focused/targeted. I wonder if one was posed or displayed a certain way? Something to single her out? Maybe an outfit?)

I think he skipped the first floor roommates intentionally. Only one way out of there, too easy to get trapped. Four is enough, and leaving two alive bought him time. He doesn’t kill the dog. Wouldn’t be the first time a dog has been spared (eg: Meredith Emerson).

Car would be parked a reasonable distance away, but I think he'd find somewhere to wait & watch, if possible,walk to car in daylight. There’s nothing unusual about someone going to their car in broad daylight, so why draw unnecessary attention. Besides, if he watched, he’d get to see how this unfolds. If I were him, I’d know that LE would be looking for nighttime video. Daylight where no one clocks what they’ve seen would be smarter. Maybe a clean change of clothes hidden someplace?
The cops will investigate predictably (most obvious first), so he will have time to distance himself.

Everyone wonders why no one heard anything, but my thoughts: First floor is built into the ground, so silencing effect. Add in: Alcohol. Asleep. White noise machines. Headphones. And the ability to sleep through a lot when you live with four or five people. Sounds like no one saw blood in the hallways. The first floor roommates sleep late, so hours before they realize there is a problem, and once they do think there’s a problem, it’s not like they’ll suspect a murder right away. He’s got quite a few hours after dawn. Might have even left a camera or mic in the house. By the time LE start to put the pieces together, he will have moved on. I think that’s why the FBI BAU are on site - and called pretty early, too. Again, all just my opinion/imagination/too many movies/books.

 

[Cryptic]

I don’t think there is info that any of them dropped out, but it’s very common - especially in sororities - for girls to stop being active in the sorority in their late 3rd/4th years.

My college fraternity Sigma Alpha Nu (Socially Akward Nerds) did not really facilitate contact with other Greeks.

As a result, I dont have any experience with Greek life and am going on what another member stated. The other member related that there is a difference between:

A. Disaffiliation / "dropping out" - verse -
B. Going inactive due to academic needs, job searches etc (perhaps mixed with, well, a discreet decline in interest).

She then related that "A" (drop outs) were rare in her sorority and the others that she was familiar with as the members hard already devoted alot of time and money into their membership. She also related that her sorority and others also allowed members to go "B" (inactive) and still preserve their membership.

Going into other aspects Greek life (again, no personal experience)....

Another member related that in his fraternity experience, being placed on probation was fairly routine and usually stemmed from inspectors from the University noting failures to check ID at the door, too many people in the house, not enough non drinking monitors to resolve problems etc.

He also related that being on probation was not an automatic indicator of serious problems and would not be a "show stopper" to Fraternity / Sorority life.

 

[OldCop]

Not one picture of a "person of interest".

RSBM I think if they had video of an unknown person who was in the area at the time of the killings, they would have asked for the person to come forward and/or asked the public for help in identifying him. If they do know who the POI is, they will likely not release a photo unless they can not locate him.
LE will usually not name a POI until they think it is highly like he had something to do with the crime.
I believe that as of yesterday, LE is still saying they do not yet have a POI.

 

[Emerald15]

That’s What I Would like To know, first how would they even know the difference, saying the residence or house was the target, maybe the neighbor didn’t like the color, Geez I wish they would just admit that they don’t know yet if it was targeted or random, What makes them think the house was targeted

I agree.

 

[cottonweaver]

This seems like LE knew that they needed a coroner l

appreciate that she doesn't need to be at the scene herself ( as she has no forensic training) but I'm still not clear whether - as per her role - she ordered that the forensic pathologists go to attend the scene ( and if not, why not)

 

[10ofRods]

LE leaving everyone in the dark???


@Trouble1321075
I'm curious about what you understand to be LE's legal obligation to publicly release information gathered from their criminal investigation.
Thx in adv.

It's the best way to get a jump on the suspect(s) as they arrive on LE radar. There are tons of people who will call from all over the nation - or world - and use a tidbit that's unique to a crime in order to insert themselves in the case (but they are pretending and have too much time on their hands).

And then, of course, there may be a need to lull a potential suspect into making a false move (if they have one). If they don't have one, the over-confident perp might also make a false move of some kind. It happens.

There is no legal obligation to reveal the results of a so-far inconclusive investigation, in order to protect the innocent and for other reasons related to US and state Constitutions.

 

[Peppery]

wasn't she studying to be an elementary school teacher?
If so, could the Texas job have related to that? ( A school student placement but unpaid?)

Maybe. The new job could’ve been related to anything. When I worked in marketing, half the people in my office had degrees in other disciplines.

 

[laust23]

landlord & letting agents will have lists of past residents?

Or I believe you can just do a Google search. "Who lived at xx address."

 

[cottonweaver]

Or I believe you can just do a Google search. "Who lived at xx address."

Yes I was assuming that LE have already requested the records from the letting agents.

Me personally, am not gonna start trawling the net to find names, track them down & start cold-calling them

 

[layer]

My college fraternity Sigma Alpha Nu (Socially Akward Nerds) did not really facilitate contact with other Greeks.

As a result, I dont have any experience with Greek life and am going on what another member stated. The other member related that there is a difference between:

A. Disaffiliation / "dropping out" - verse -
B. Going inactive due to academic needs, job searches etc (perhaps mixed with, well, a discreet decline in interest).

She then related that "A" (drop outs) were rare in her sorority and the others that she was familiar with as the members hard already devoted alot of time and money into their membership. She also related that her sorority and others also allowed members to go "B" (inactive) and still preserve their membership.

Going into other aspects Greek life (again, no personal experience)....

Another member related that in his fraternity experience, being placed on probation was fairly routine and usually stemmed from inspectors from the University noting failures to check ID at the door, too many people in the house, not enough non drinking monitors to resolve problems etc.

He also related that being on probation was not an automatic indicator of serious problems and would not be a "show stopper" to Fraternity / Sorority life.

ΣΑΜ... Nerds are cool!
Thanks for sharing! Second hand insight is more valuable than rampant speculation.

 

[zephyr22]

Jeremy promises that this is the last time.

 

[Trouble1321075]

I think LE is telling us the the killer went into this house and killed four people. LE is not sure why. Yet. Something or someone drew him there. LE is doing everything they can to find out who did it and why. They may not even know the answer until they identify a subject. Sometimes the perpetrator doesn’t even know why he does the things he does.

LE is doing a massive amount of difficult, cross contaminated, forensics work. They are following up on hundreds of tips, interviewing dozens and dozens of people, collecting and watching every piece of video data they can get their hands on.
However, you are losing confidence in the police because they can’t tell you if you should be concerned if you own a split level house, own a dog, or are righted handed? They have stepped up patrols, brought in extra officers from outside agencies, and asked folks to call them if they see or hear anything unusual.
Since the police can’t assign an officer to every citizen in their jurisdiction, maybe folks need to take some responsibility for their own safety, too. How about anyone should be concerned who lives in that area? How about everyone should take precautions? How about everyone should lock their doors and stay in groups until this monster is found.

Exactly! You are making my point for me.

I don't expect the police to have a superhero or Sherlock holmes working for them. They are normal every day people trying to solve a very complex puzzle.

It's our responsibility to protect ourselves. The police are an assistive service but the responsibility is on us. People need information and when they ask questions the police response has been "your just gonna have to trust that we have this under control" when it looks like they do not have it under control. They don't know the killers motive so they don't know who is and is not in danger. It's that false posturing by them that I am having a problem with.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

@UnapologeticallyAspie suggested that I repost my original comment here instead of in the poll thread.

It's my first comment ever on ws, and although I would modify a little based on new info, we have little new info, so it wouldn't change much. Def would change type of suit, add in shoe type, update the K&M scenario, but overall, still stand on this, and as I consider new theories (from the butler to the roommates to drug dealers), I try to walk through all of the steps, pre-offense to post, and none of the others get me to a complete, logical outcome. I appreciate logic process/outcome, so wonder what others think (not just guesses at who did it, but the thought process and details).


First post, so I hope I don't mess this up, and I apologize for the length but I just wanted to get all the comments from my head into one place. I’ve been watching and reading (though unable to keep up it’s moving so fast). JMO: I do not think that this was an acquaintance who just got upset. I do not think this was just a jealous boyfriend. It takes more than fortitude to slaughter four people in this style. The fact that an obvious suspect has not been identified means that these murders are different than the norm, and today's pc didn't dissuade me from my opinion, but ICBW & hope I am.

I think this guy is a prepared thrill killer/serial guy who has been watching and waiting for a while. He may have left a lot of DNA from the victims and a bloody mess, but the “mess” seems to have been limited to the areas where the murders took place, not all over the house. Here are some thoughts and what may be a plausible scenario.

It’s not his first killing. Animals, of course, but (and this is only a guess), there is also at least one human victim prior to this. Those humans would may be those unlikely to be missed (homeless, prostitute, etc.), taken so that he could practice his trade unnoticed. Obvs in another town, maybe another state. This killing, though, I think he wanted to announce his presence to authorities, show how smart and skilled he is, esp if he didn't get enough notice before. Four people-that's brazen, that's a big calling card. Maybe that’s why LE (via the families, etc.) used the “made a mess” statement to bait him, hoping he'd respond. He’ll love all of the focus, but maybe irked by that “sloppy” remark, because (his thinking) if he’s so sloppy, why no footprints in and out? Why wasn’t there blood on the doors? How did he murder four people so easily and leave no obvious signs for the two he left alive?

He’d have watched, waited, practiced. From the wooded area behind the house at night, from social venues where he was able to unobtrusively follow these girls. On social media. He’d have eaten at the Mad Greek to see them in person. Paid cash, of course. He’d have done several recons to make sure he knew their patterns. He may have even been in the house when they were gone.

He’d have a full kit packed -a small, unobtrusive backpack. Shoe covers, maybe a buzz cut, but not totally shaved head and hair net w/double-sided wig tape to scalp so it couldn’t fall off, OVOS gloves, mask (don’t want to leave spittle). I think he’d go early and on foot for most or all of the way. He’d wait in the wooded area behind the house, prep there, not wait in the house, because of risk of discovery. Easier to get in while they’re asleep rather than get out if discovered while they were still awake. Getting caught for a B&E would ruin his future plans.

I think he’d have gone in through the second floor sliding door after he was sure everyone was asleep, not through the first door with the keypad, even though he might know their code. I believe the first floor only has one possible exit. He would not let himself be trapped. On the second floor, he would have three potential door exits. Even on the 3rd floor, more options and he’s in good shape, so he could jump from the third story window or deck, if needed.

He’d go to the second floor bedroom first. E, the biggest and potentially undesirable victim. He'd cut arteries & vocal chords. Even if E woke up and fought, it would not be for long. Same with X to silence her, but she fought back. He might even have pre-cut duct tape for over the mouths. The police are saying no one was bound and gagged, but did anyone ask about adhesive residue? Or tape left over the mouths?

After he finished, he’d have wipes in his kit to clean gloves, suit, etc. & he’d make sure he had everything counted. That’s why he practiced. He’d put on clean shoe covers he’d brought. Sounds dramatic, but maybe even a hazmat suit or fresh pullover. No need to leave a blood trail in the hall if he can help it. He’d lock the door as he goes out. He’d even use a wipe to open the door and shut it. Why leave a bloody print? He’s visualized this so many times mentally, he is relatively calm.

On the third floor, he knows no one will hear him. He can elaborate there. Possibly a quick piece of tape over the mouth. (I think this may be where he focused/targeted. I wonder if one was posed or displayed a certain way? Something to single her out? Maybe an outfit?)

I think he skipped the first floor roommates intentionally. Only one way out of there, too easy to get trapped. Four is enough, and leaving two alive bought him time. He doesn’t kill the dog. Wouldn’t be the first time a dog has been spared (eg: Meredith Emerson).

Car would be parked a reasonable distance away, but I think he'd find somewhere to wait & watch, if possible,walk to car in daylight. There’s nothing unusual about someone going to their car in broad daylight, so why draw unnecessary attention. Besides, if he watched, he’d get to see how this unfolds. If I were him, I’d know that LE would be looking for nighttime video. Daylight where no one clocks what they’ve seen would be smarter. Maybe a clean change of clothes hidden someplace?
The cops will investigate predictably (most obvious first), so he will have time to distance himself.

Everyone wonders why no one heard anything, but my thoughts: First floor is built into the ground, so silencing effect. Add in: Alcohol. Asleep. White noise machines. Headphones. And the ability to sleep through a lot when you live with four or five people. Sounds like no one saw blood in the hallways. The first floor roommates sleep late, so hours before they realize there is a problem, and once they do think there’s a problem, it’s not like they’ll suspect a murder right away. He’s got quite a few hours after dawn. Might have even left a camera or mic in the house. By the time LE start to put the pieces together, he will have moved on. I think that’s why the FBI BAU are on site - and called pretty early, too. Again, all just my opinion/imagination/too many movies/books.

IMHAspieO you make so many great points and things to ponder.

I for one think that your post is excellent, eye-opening, intriguing and well thought out! Thank you for sharing!

moo ymmv jmo

 

[10ofRods]

That’s What I Would like To know, first how would they even know the difference, saying the residence or house was the target, maybe the neighbor didn’t like the color, Geez I wish they would just admit that they don’t know yet if it was targeted or random, What makes them think the house was targeted

I am guess that answer is embedded in facts known only to the police - who have several strands of evidence that could shed light on this question.

Did you read that page from the FBI manual that some WSer graciously posted? - p. 41 - about what the word "targeted" means in this context?

 

[citizen_sleuth]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598787340713234432

 

[Sandy007]

What is the difference between a “targeted attack”, and a “residence targeted”?

I would modify your question slightly, if you don't mind.

What is common and what are the differences between targeted attack and residence targeted attack.

The common part is attack. Someone out there who wants to rape, kill and looks for an opportunity to attack, rape, kill.

The differnces are that in first case the opportunity arises in form of particular person(s). Then the attacker gets obsessed with that person, it is like an obsessive love but in reverse, they need to kill that person. The person is relevant. My perception is that the killer often tries to get close to the person prior the atrack, such as stalking them, trying to engage them in a conversation, but I am confused on that part. Perhaps, someone would contribute.

In case of residence targeted attack the opportinity arises in shape of 'easy to get to' property, as it is known to be left unlocked, there is a missing/broken ground floor window, vulnerable people inside, no man (easy to overcome females) etc. In this case, the perpetrator just goes in that easy entry area and kills whoever they could as many as they could. It is not necessary that killer knows the habitants of that property, at all, prior to attack, as people are irrelevant to him in this case.

It is really interesting topic.

That was JMO

 

[TooMuchGun]

I agree.

residence meaning it didn’t matter who lived there. The house represented an opportunity to kill

 

[Lalalacasbah]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1598768298862465024

Blood experts? Spatter, pooling, shoe prints, etc? Maybe not relevant or unsure if they go separate from other forensics teams.

 

[avalonisland]

JMO Soooooo ex roommate was told to move out? Then proceeds to get revenge by going on a crazed bloodbath murder spree butchering 4 people?

Seems at bit……………...much.

If the 6th roommate who was told to move out wanted revenge, all the th roommate would have to do is alert property managment/homeowner that a roommate may be violating a no pet policy. If Murphy was not inviolation of no pet policy and lived with J co-owner, what time was Murphy at 1122 King house on 11/12 and 11/13?