ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

[cottonweaver]

Well, this is …odd. Moo.

why do you say that Nony?

( I was hoping we'd get some local feedback on that article)

 

[Friday Fan]

I get what he was saying but imo he is saying it with the benefit of hindsight. His suggestion that the cops should of immediately backed out of the crime scene might of been best to preserve the scene in an undisturbed state but the cops also needed to access if the victims needed medical attention. They also needed to go room to room to check for more victims as well as the possibility of the assailiant still being on site. They had to clear the scene before they could secure it.

Putting myself in the cops shoes for a moment...

What do you say to those kids after discovering their friends savagely murdered like that?

How do you break news like that to someone?

You get the kids off the site.
None of them needed enough medical attention that they would need to stay on site. If by chance one of them fainted, it's no big deal to walk a few feet.
Put them in a cop car if they need warmth.
Roommates will need to be questioned.
The only people the police should be speaking to are those who are at the scene when the police arrived. Those individuals need to be questioned. All of those people pretty much know what happened to their friends.

Any bystanders are asked to leave the site.

Bystanders will gather and stand across the street

No information is given.

Any info is given via press conference
Bodies identified
Next of kin notified.

 

[JSTANOVICE]

I don't think they are talking about us here on this website, i think they are taking about reddit and twitter/Facebook. The rumour mill is drowning over in those sites.

JMO

It Is wrong To give opinions or to speculate about someone Who more than likely had nothing to do with this, The Law student is one example, But Who Takes This Website Or Reddit or Twitter seriously when it comes to sleuthing these murders, We know very little and it’s just a platform to discuss

 

[Snoop Sister]

Any kind of MONEY problems or financial problems or someone getting screwed out of money is a huge motivator in killing as well.

From what I have read since the beginning of these threads, I don’t think financial problems were an issue in relation to the murders. Perhaps the 6th roomie graduated or quit school or moved in with her bf. Or perhaps she has yet to move in, as there is a new semester starting in a month. IMO, it wouldn’t be related at all to the murders or anything nefarious.

 

[Sandy007]

that sounds very late when it's a homicide.
iirc the bodies were sent to MEs at Spokane but I may have misremembered that.

wonder what the reason is for the delay?

Only LE could probably say. My honest opinion is small force, unprepared and underesourced to deal with a crime of such scale, delayed to recognise that the case is much bigger than their capabilities and to ask state and FBI for help at the very beginning. It does not help that the murders happened on the weekend so 24 hours passed before anyone started to work out that this case is bigger than the local force could handle. Of course, it does not help that there were no serous crime in Moscow, ID for years so the force was unprepared to deal with mass murder case and calculating merciless perpetrator.

I do not blame them, the case is overhelming and shocking.

There will be some lessons to learn, middle managenment beforehand, but lets first see where the investigation goes and ends.

 

[10ofRods]

off topic...but I have to,

no curtains, no shutters, nothing that would give you privacy, especially in the evening with the lights on,

I CAN'T IMAGINE

There was a time in my own life (not that long ago) where I would have say, "Nah, people don't choose houses just because they can see inside." I would have contended that it was rare. After many, many policemen told me I was wrong (I was teaching at police academy and then worked as a consultant with police), I rethought my position.

If people can get a sense of when a house has bedded down and everyone is likely asleep (and the dog contained), it gives them a way of planning a criminal entry.

I should also mention that my mother, father, husband and sons-in-law all had the same idea (that we should have blinds and curtains and use them).

But I used to be very casual about all of this. Then one day, I realized a neighbor with a two story house had a camera aimed into our sunroom (not our actual kitchen, but still). I was very angry. And, the police said there was nothing I could do but erect a screen along our fenceline to obstruct the angle of the view. So that's what we did. Same neighbor has a camera aimed onto our driveway as I type - and that same neighbor figured out when we were gone from home and stole things from our mailbox and our back yard (as well as the back yard and mail box of two other neighbors). Long story. But yeah, get window coverings. Use something at hand if necessary.

For a sexual sadist or sexually motivated perp, young women inside uncurtained windows is an age-old lure. Yes, those men are defective or whatever, but they are out there. And they can become opportunistic voyeurs, and then...attackers.

 

[cara23]

it's a good approach @cara23

btw an extra
NYPD guy ( I posted a clip of him about 5 pages back) said LE would also need to consider records of people who'd applied for a gun license but had been turned down ( to eliminate this as one possibility re choosing to use a knife)

Yeah that's a good thought. Only caveat is that a gun is quite easy to get illegally too?

 

[isabella88]

It seems today's memorial is no longer available on the Real Life Ministries page/link. Has anyone found a replay or video that can still be watched? It cut out for me as Jake was speaking about Maddie. Thanks!

Don't know of a replay but he was pain embodied. My heart breaks for him as well as Maddie's family. His words were spoken through tears and they are genuine and heartfelt. He's a victim as well. JMO.

 

[Trouble1321075]

Their murders don’t track with a petty grievance, IMO.

The way in which they were all killed with a knife suggests a particular type of offender and a particular type of motive.

If the above were true (while anything is possible), it would be more likely than not a result of maybe something less personal, like a gun or burning the house down. I think LE would maybe have a POI if it was someone closer to them and coupled with the fact that it’s been nearly three weeks and police work from the inner circle out — the probability of a grievance killing is less likely because they’re stating there is no POI’s at all.

IMO, the thought calculation, preparation, sheer constitution and physical strength it actually takes to brutally murder someone with a knife, <modsnip>, all while potentially fighting off the victim from defending themselves and keeping them quiet — Not once, but four different times is a different level of brutality.

The manner in which the victims were killed tells investigators a lot about the perpetrator. Since the beginning, this case has reminded me most of Danny Rollings, “The Gainesville Slayer”

In a previous thread, I listed the differences and similarities based off what we know. And I still think as time goes on, this may be a “true” victim crime where the victims possibly didn’t know, and had no real connections to the perpetrator, making it an extremely difficult case to solve, generally speaking.

Also, just because there wasn’t SA present doesn’t mean a few things (I previously discussed in an earlier thread):

1. That there still was a sexual component and it was one of the main drivers for the murders.

2. The perpetrator may have been caught off guard and wasn’t able to finish his fantasy; and or, he physically wasn’t capable of SA.

3. Piquerism may be involved. Basically it’s a type of paraphillia— a sexual disorder that involves knives and the knife is used as a stand in a phallic way.

4. These murders were way more brutal and personal than they had to be: there are many different ways to kill people and besides strangling, the perpetrator chose the most personal.

There are subtype personalities to serial killers and IMO, he’s mostly like a thrill-killer: these are the same types of killers as Rollings, Ramirez, and Israel Keyes.

If this is the case, only he knows why he chose them that night. The victims could just represent a stand in and he took his aggression out on them (as Rollings did). Or, they were seen somewhere by him and for whatever reason, he honed in on them and carried out his fantasy. We don’t know.

It could be a lot of things, but no one really has enough information to have a definitive answer and the longer it goes and people closest to them get ruled out, the circle gets wider and the murderer and his motive get more difficult to uncover. *This is all also conjecture on my part.

Sign in - Google Accounts

Piquerism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If it turns out to be #2. The scary element to that is it might mean his thirst wasn't quenched and he would be feeling a need to do it again sooner rather than later.

 

[cottonweaver]

You get the kids off the site.
None of them needed enough medical attention that they would need to stay on site. If by chance one of them fainted, it's no big deal to walk a few feet.
Put them in a cop car if they need warmth.
Roommates will need to be questioned.
The only people the police should be speaking to are those who are at the scene when the police. Those individuals need to be questioned. All of those people pretty much know what happened to their friends.
Any bystanders are asked to leave the site.

No information is given.

Any info is given via press conference
Bodies identified
Next of kin notified.

MPD maybe has an official guide to their standardised crime scene management for homicide - which is available to the public? If they don't, do ISP?
eg how crime scene manager is appointed, ditto senior officer ( would that automatically be Captain because MPD is so small? )
Do MPD get sufficient funds for training in this area? If not, why not? I'm heavy hinting here

 

[cottonweaver]

Yeah that's a good thought. Only caveat is that a gun is quite easy to get illegally too?

true, but he knows better than me, as NYPD, so there must be a reason he suggested it

 

[layer]

I am not sure about Jake, but Jack was there with KG’s parent.

Jake spoke with great love, I was impressed.

 

[Sandy007]

Their murders don’t track with a petty grievance, IMO.

The way in which they were all killed with a knife suggests a particular type of offender and a particular type of motive.

If the above were true (while anything is possible), it would be more likely than not a result of maybe something less personal, like a gun or burning the house down. I think LE would maybe have a POI if it was someone closer to them and coupled with the fact that it’s been nearly three weeks and police work from the inner circle out — the probability of a grievance killing is less likely because they’re stating there is no POI’s at all.

IMO, the thought calculation, preparation, sheer constitution and physical strength it actually takes to brutally murder someone with a knife, <modsnip> all while potentially fighting off the victim from defending themselves and keeping them quiet — Not once, but four different times is a different level of brutality.

The manner in which the victims were killed tells investigators a lot about the perpetrator. Since the beginning, this case has reminded me most of Danny Rollings, “The Gainesville Slayer”

In a previous thread, I listed the differences and similarities based off what we know. And I still think as time goes on, this may be a “true” victim crime where the victims possibly didn’t know, and had no real connections to the perpetrator, making it an extremely difficult case to solve, generally speaking.

Also, just because there wasn’t SA present doesn’t mean a few things (I previously discussed in an earlier thread):

1. That there still was a sexual component and it was one of the main drivers for the murders.

2. The perpetrator may have been caught off guard and wasn’t able to finish his fantasy; and or, he physically wasn’t capable of SA.

3. Piquerism may be involved. Basically it’s a type of paraphillia— a sexual disorder that involves knives and the knife is used as a stand in a phallic way.

4. These murders were way more brutal and personal than they had to be: there are many different ways to kill people and besides strangling, the perpetrator chose the most personal.

There are subtype personalities to serial killers and IMO, he’s mostly like a thrill-killer: these are the same types of killers as Rollings, Ramirez, and Israel Keyes.

If this is the case, only he knows why he chose them that night. The victims could just represent a stand in and he took his aggression out on them (as Rollings did). Or, they were seen somewhere by him and for whatever reason, he honed in on them and carried out his fantasy. We don’t know.

It could be a lot of things, but no one really has enough information to have a definitive answer and the longer it goes and people closest to them get ruled out, the circle gets wider and the murderer and his motive get more difficult to uncover. *This is all also conjecture on my part.

Sign in - Google Accounts

Piquerism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One of the best posts i read here about this case and profile of the perpetrator, field that really interests me. I remember your previous post (abbreviation SA sticked to my mind), but this is even more logical and detailed explanation. I am impressed.

I wish to make a mark sonehow, so I can read your posts, whenever you write, but I am not familiar with this site. Can someone help?

 

[layer]

NYPD guy ( I posted a clip of him about 5 pages back) said LE would also need to consider records of people who'd applied for a gun license but had been turned down ( to eliminate this as one possibility re choosing to use a knife)

There are no gun licenses in Idaho. Perhaps he was reffering to a NICS background check.

ETA: Since I've had posts removed for not providing a source...

Weapon laws (Title 18, Ch. 33 IC)
Idaho does not have purchase permits, gun registration, or gun-owner licensing. There are no limits on magazine capacity or weapon types. There is no waiting period mandated for firearm purchases and private gun sales are legal

Gun Laws Of Idaho

 

[10ofRods]

Good find, but LE have already said categorically that they have investigated suggestions of a stalker and could find no verification.

Whilst they need to be elusive and non committal sometimes for the investigation this is one they categorically said they couldn’t verify.

Possible of course that this could be a different person reporting it, but it’s clearly not the victims as it says report taken and it would be traceable

Not finding verification at this point in time is not the same as "never finding verification."

They are working on the case. Family thinks there was a stalker, apparently. "Verification" means to find to be absolutely true. That's a high bar.

 

[annpats]

The girls may have pledged different ones due to legacy. Maybe their mom's or family member was in them, or perhaps some cost differences from an affordability standpoint. I would have loved to have pledged the frat that many of my HS friends joined but I could not afford it and joined a smaller fraternity

For someone who is not from the USA, can you explain how fraternities/sororities cost money? What are you paying for and how are some of them unaffordable? Is it membership fees?

 

[cottonweaver]

There are no gun licenses in Idaho. Perhaps he was reffering to a NICS background check.

so everybody over 18 can own a gun without a permit in Idaho? even if they're a student massacre type guy? or a former jailbird? or mentally ill?


oh!

 

[SouthAussie]

yes but are we sure that forensic pathologists were not ordered to attend the crime scene prior to the autopsy itself?
( I can't find a definitive answer on that. I just bumped the old interview of Mabbutt explaining why she wasn't on the scene but she's not a forensic pathologist)


steps in death investigations UK

The pathology strategy
There are several issues that must be addressed in relation to pathology:

• Notifying the coroner, who will appoint a forensic pathologist to undertake the postmortem examination in consultation with the police.3
• Consideration of health and safety and staff welfare arrangements.
• Assessing the value of a forensic pathologist’s attendance at the crime scene or access
  by remote visual means.
• Liaising with the forensic pathologist throughout the investigation.
• Removal of the body, including:

o whatactionsmustbeperformedbeforeitsremoval
o supervisingtheremoval
o continuityofthebodyfromthescenetothemortuary
o identifyingthebodytotheforensicpathologist,priortothepostmortemexamination (or establishment of continuity if identity is unknown).

• Deciding who should attend the postmortem examination and/or scene, including specialists.

etc etc

copied from government document ( Policing)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/922345/The_medical_investigation_of_suspected_homicide.pdf

appreciate that there's different systems & need for reform butsome US states must send paths to crime scene but does Idaho not do this?

Apparently, the autopsies were performed by the Spokane County medical examiner.

Part of the responsibilities of the Spokane County medical examiner are to .... "Perform investigations at the scene of death".

It seems possible/probable that the medical examiner attended the scene before the victims were removed. According to google, Spokane County is less than a 2 hour drive from Latah County where the murders occurred.


"The Spokane County Medical Examiner’s Office completed the autopsies ...."
Four UI students stabbed to death, Latah County coroner rules

Spokane County Medical Examiner

 

[nightrider17]

Just a thought about the house being a target.

If any previous renters wanted to reminisce living at their former party house/student accommodation and came by and noticed the new occupants.

They would know and be very familiar with local area - routes in and out and good vantage points. Just mY Opinion.

 

[JSTANOVICE]

The autopsies were petformed on Wednesday, Nov 16th if my memory does not fail me. The first results of autopsies were reported by the coroner on Thursday 17th and ii was reported time of death after 2 am. Couple of days later the time of death was reported as between 3 and 4 am.

If you can kindly provide a link to report about time of death before Wednesday, then we can discuss.

I got a link to the first coroner report here

Coroner offers new details about fatal slaying of 4 U of Idaho students after preliminary autopsies

The four students were found stabbed to death inside a home in Moscow, Idaho, on Nov. 13.

www.today.com

All Three Of My kids Have Apple Watches, I Don’t, But can’t they tell by an Apple Watch?