ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 23

[SuziQ]

I'm surprised we don't have five pages of this c/p for you already.

• Detectives continue investigating what occurred from approximately 9 p.m. on November 12th to 1:45 a.m. on November 13th, when Ethan Chapin and Xana Kernodle were believed to be at the Sigma Chi house on the University of Idaho Campus at 735 Nez Perce Drive. Any interactions, contacts, direction and method of travel, or anything abnormal could add context to what occurred.

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24875/12-05-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

Thank you! Imo. LE wants to know what happened at Sigma Chi.

 

[mayhem911]

The shock of being stabbed I'm sure a lot of people myself included would probably just either faint or play dead if stabbed in this manner. Fight or flight aren't the only options because giving up is another option in the fight or flight system. Could be an explanation of why the victims didn't make enough noise to alert sleeping roommates on the first floor.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Remembering the hunt for Brian Laundrie and all the crazy publicity Duane Chapman aka Dog the Bounty Hunter brought to the case. I hope Mr. G steers clear of that sort of "PI".

 

[JSTANOVICE]

I agree.

Size Has Nothing To Do With It, “It’s Not The Size Of The Dog In The Fight, It’s The Size Of The fight In The Dog” Someone With extreme rage, Hate Or Anger Could generate An extreme amount Of strength

 

[Txbarfly]

Wherever there is a college market, there are gang members. They aren't necessarily meeting at a clubhouse or anything, but they are certainly dispatched, live in the community, and often blend in as much as possible.

My opinion.

Gang activity crossed my mind. Once. For about a nanosecond. Just looking at the demographics of Moscow and even the university, I think it would stick out like a sore thumb. I’m very nearly back to

Just thinking aloud here so jmo but I wonder if the reason the two girls downstairs were spared wasn't because of locked doors but because the police literally arrived over the road (anyone know if there were lights and sirens).
Could this have disturbed the killer and forced them to flee?
It's spooky and sad that the police were literally just there as all this was happening.

If LE arrived

That's a possibility.

Police always seem to blow their siren at least once here have their lights going here.

It announces their presence and prevents "surprise reactions" by those involved in minor and/or traffic infractions

If LE arrived on the scene just as the killer was slipping out, then I’ve got worse than a little age-related forgetfulness. I haven’t been keeping 24/7 tabs on the case, but I check in at least once every day and usually 2-3 times. All I’ve ever read or heard was that the murders occurred between 3-5 a.m. and the 911 call was placed right around noon. The killer would have been loooooong gone. I trust somebody will tell me if I’m losing it. Just please don’t be too hard on me.

 

[Data Sleuth]

But for 9 hours? It seems to me he was locked in a kennel or at least in a room, otherwise at some point before noon the next day, I would think he would have gone checking things out, and gotten blood on his paws/fur. MOO

Excerpt from the 12/5/22 Moscow Police update press release:
“
There have been numerous requests about the dog found at the residence on the morning of November 13th. Arriving officers entered the residence and found the deceased victims. During the search of the home, a dog was found in a room where the crimes had not been committed. Officers did not find any evidence on the dog and there was no indication the animal had entered the crime scene. The dog was taken to Animal Services and released to a responsible person.

While the dog was in the house when officers arrived, it has not been determined where the dog was physically located when the murders took place.”

The full update can be found via a link on page 1 of this thread.

 

[EJB123456]

He also said " He didn't have to go up" that is open to interpretation. It could easily be assumed that he meant the suspect chose to go up and commit some more acts of violence. I am fairly certain that with the investigation and ME they can come to a conclusion as to an order of things.

I don't think it's open to interpretation anymore. SG clarified his thinking (rightly or wrongly, we don't know) the next morning:
****

Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves' father reveals he does ‘not feel confident’ in the police investigation

"I do not feel confident," said Steve Goncalves, the father of University of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves "And that's why I push the envelope and say a little bit more. I hate to be that guy, but, you know…everybody has a job and a role to play and this is my role as the parent."

www.fox6now.com

Goncalves also revealed that he believes his daughter and her best friend may have been targeted based on the perpetrator's suspected entry and exit point, telling Fox News that a sliding glass door or window on the second floor of the home — which meets a hill on the ground level in the backyard — "are available without having to go upstairs or downstairs."

"[The killer's] entry and exit are available without having to go upstairs or downstairs. Looks like he probably may have not gone downstairs," Goncalves revealed. "We don't know that for sure, but he obviously went upstairs. So I'm using logic that he chose to go up there when he didn't have to."
*******

That said, I don't believe anyone has indicated any sort of order as of yet (2nd floor or 3rd).

 

[thatssoamy]

@Txbarfly i wasn't talking about when the police came after the 911 call, I was talking about the police going to a location right near the crime scene at 3am for a different matter.

There has been extensive media interest regarding an incident at Taylor Avenue and Band Field on November 13, 2022, at 3:01 a.m. This incident was an alcohol offense which was addressed by the on-scene officer.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

There's a five hour gap in their timeline that is concerning because no one has come forward to provide information.

A lot of suspicion has been cast on the fraternity for this, but I also wouldn’t rule out these characters simply just being under the influence, or evasive if underage drinking or possibly narcotics are involved. Not to mention, an abundance of coming-and-goings. These kids are on the verge of graduating and are likely not looking for outside interference preventing such; even in a critical timeframe.

 

[CityKid]

I'd like to revisit the Jack in the Box food situation and establish what the facts are and what's been confirmed. Everything I'm writing here is speculation and MOO.
Did X&E have JITB the evening before the murders? Did they have it delivered? I know someone mentioned the nearest one is in Pullman, Washington; is it possible they drove there? WSU in Pullman has a Sigma Chi chapter; does a local know if the two chapters fraternize? I know "something" college kids might partake in is legal in Washington but not legal in Idaho; does a local know if UI students commonly make cross-border runs for this? Is it possible purveyors of some substances might also be purveyors of other substances?

 

[squareandrabbet]

@Txbarfly i wasn't talking about when the police came after the 911 call, I was talking about the police going to a location right near the crime scene at 3am for a different matter.

There has been extensive media interest regarding an incident at Taylor Avenue and Band Field on November 13, 2022, at 3:01 a.m. This incident was an alcohol offense which was addressed by the on-scene officer.

Hopefully just too much cactus water!

 

[cottonweaver]

I asked and wondered about this on twitter last night and received some thoughtful replies that helped. However- I make the observation that the way DNA changed the world and took while to catch up that SM has changed the world and we are not going back. We don't know that some cold cases right now couldn't have been solved at the time with some of the sleuthing and pressure put on LE we are seeing right now. I think this could serve as a future case study in educating LE pros.

yes and because forensic science develops so quickly ( including DNA analysis techniques) the cold case solution becomes more possible over time.

And going back 30-40 years most perps who committed crime then did not know that they might be caught via DNA and so were less casual about leaving their evidence behind. Cold case reviews using forensics are popular to LE everywhere because the success rates are good.
I genuinely don't think those successes are down to web sleuthing & SM

 

[FeistyCat1976]

No it has not!! LE has said the dog was found in a part if the house that wasn’t part if the crime scene. That is all we know.

It could have been in a crate in the kitchen. Or anywhere on the first floor. Or in a utility room. Or bathroom. We don’t know all the areas of the house that are considered part of the crime scene but aside from those areas the dog could have been found anywhere in the house.

It bothers me that LE releases their statement, someone hypothesizes that means the dog was found in a bedroom and suddenly it’s treated as fact. This is only one example where LE’s words have been bent or just ignored.

We don’t know where the dog was found

We don’t know Xena and Ethan were drunk.

We don’t know the order of attack

We don’t know who was brutilized the most. Perhaps Kaylee’s injuries were worse than M’s but we don’t know how they compare to E and X’s injuries

Though they probably did, we don’t know the surviving roommates tried to text and call the other roommates. They may have just gone upstairs and seen “something”.

We don’t know what or who they saw.

We don’t know Ethan was found in the hall

etc, etc.

I know it’s almost impossible to keep up with these fast moving threads. But reading LE’s daily updates is more than manageable. And that’s the best way to make sure we’re not mis-stating facts.

Yep, I agree! Again, I apologize.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Size Has Nothing To Do With It, “It’s Not The Size Of The Dog In The Fight, It’s The Size Of The fight In The Dog” Someone With extreme rage, Hate Or Anger Could generate An extreme amount Of strength

Revenge or avenging a personal affront are mighty motivators also. Whether intentionally or not, someone made a huge statement with killing four young adults. FAFO!

 

[Bhodie]

I don’t know…I tend to agree that with the victims being asleep and possibly inebriated, the element of surprise and a very big, sharp knife, would give even a weak man or a female the upper hand as the perp. Is it really that difficult to fatally stab someone? Just thinking about me accidentally slicing my finger, I think a watermelon is harder to cut into. Entirely MOO

Have you ever fought a person on drugs or a mental patient, I have and let me tell you they are relentless regardless of size. Do not assume size has anything to do with pulling off this act. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug when you pump yourself up to do something. Anyone who committed this crime definitely had some adrenaline rushing through them during the act. Take little old Jodi Arias for example, she really went all in on Travis. Size is irrelevant. Whoever did this was in fight mode and probably high on fear, adrenaline and possibly hate or rage.

 

[10ofRods]

Maybe, but it seemed more like they want to know who E & X may have talked to, interacted with in any way (face to face, via text, etc). Seems like they know where E & X were, when they were there, and generally what they were doing, but are now looking for any sort of interaction or event they're unaware of. I just can't imagine they don't have X & E's cell phone data yet, assuming they do, they know who they called, who they texted, what they said, and where they were and for how long...

It almost seems like LE is looking for something almost random (probably wrong word but best i can do atm), seemingly innocuous or innocent anything that could connect X & E or the house to the killer because they haven't been able to identify anything related to K & M.

I think they have a much more specific footprint of K & M's night than they have for X & E, probably because K & M were places with cameras (the food truck, the bar, cameras in businesses and on houses that K & M may have passed to and from places, etc). Because X & E were at a frat party, then home, then quick food run, they have a lot less specifics and a lot less camera footage.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but when I saw the direct statements about X & E's timeline gaps, my heart sunk, because it just seems like they thought they were going to find something with K & M and haven't and now need minutia on the two other potential targets.

Most (all?) LE homicide investigations follow up on every tip. I believe that in this case, LE has said they have 2000 of those?

Naturally, some leader decides which ones to organize and follow first. They are probably just following tips from Sigma Chi, and trying to find witnesses. Sometimes, an offhand story told at a party can be helpful to the investigation in some way - but usually (just as we see here on WS), people who are in a situation like the local student/faculty community will call in tips about all kinds of people.

I figure that they are now doing the Sigma Chi/E and X segment of their investigation, if only to make sure no one about whom they've been tipped knows anything or is involved in any way.

 

[Friday Fan]

the killer was slipping out, then I’ve got worse than a little age-related forgetfulness. I haven’t been keeping 24/7 tabs on the case, but I check in at least once every day and usually 2-3 times. All I’ve ever read or heard was that the murders occurred between 3-5 a.m. and the 911 call was placed right around noon. The killer would have been loooooong gone. I trust somebody will tell me if I’m losing it. Just please don’t be too hard on me.

There was an alcohol incident within eye view of 1122 King at 3 am in the morning. I don't believe this is related to the murders, but lights from police vehicle could possibly be illuminated into the residence at 1122 King Dr.

22-M09896 Alcohol Offense

Incident Address: TAYLOR AVE; Band Field

MOSCOW ID 83843

Disposition: ACT

Time Reported: 03:01

Cad Comments:

Officer requested a case. Report taken.

MPD Press Log 11/13/2022

www.ci.moscow.id.us

 

[Walela]

There's a five hour gap in their timeline that is concerning because no one has come forward to provide information.

IIRC, X's dad said he talked with her on the phone around midnight and she was fine. Wouldn't the location of her phone for that call point to a location..maybe not specific but at least a general area?

 

[LizWords]

I don't think it's open to interpretation anymore. SG clarified his thinking (rightly or wrongly, we don't know) the next morning:
****

Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves' father reveals he does ‘not feel confident’ in the police investigation

"I do not feel confident," said Steve Goncalves, the father of University of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves "And that's why I push the envelope and say a little bit more. I hate to be that guy, but, you know…everybody has a job and a role to play and this is my role as the parent."

www.fox6now.com

Goncalves also revealed that he believes his daughter and her best friend may have been targeted based on the perpetrator's suspected entry and exit point, telling Fox News that a sliding glass door or window on the second floor of the home — which meets a hill on the ground level in the backyard — "are available without having to go upstairs or downstairs."

"[The killer's] entry and exit are available without having to go upstairs or downstairs. Looks like he probably may have not gone downstairs," Goncalves revealed. "We don't know that for sure, but he obviously went upstairs. So I'm using logic that he chose to go up there when he didn't have to."
*******

That said, I don't believe anyone has indicated any sort of order as of yet (2nd floor or 3rd).

I think his presumption that K and/or M were targeted is actually based on a combination of what only he knew about K's wounds, and LE and city admin initially said to him, and the public in the initial press conferences. When LE first said "this was targeted" I think LE truly felt specific girls were targeted at that time, based on the higher level of brutality of attack on K.

But they have since walked that back, kind of maybe. The intial targeted statement and then the walk back actually reminds me a bit of the Collier case, where LE also said it was "targeted and personal" the first week, but in the end, it wasn't targeted, it was suicide. But it certainly appeared targeted at the start of the investigation. They have so so much more info and perspective than they had when they initially said it was targeted. My guess is they had good reason to think that at first.

But now they have a ton of forensics coming back, people ruled out, myriad interviews, etc as well as a ton of assistance and expertise provided by state LE and the FBI.

I do think they thought it was likely K was targeted, but now, three weeks and a ton of info later, they are less confident this was the case... So now they have to look into the tiny details of X & E to see if perhaps they had been targeted or somehow crossed paths with the killer.

I don't believe they have any suspects. I think they're pretty stumped for connections to the victims at this point...

 

[Janitor101]

Some of the best people in the field of criminal investigation are in their 70's or older and still consulted by active (younger) LE. One of the best local investigators I know is still working (and crucial in his field of expertise as no one else comes close) and he's 71.

For myself, I started doing crime scene photography for my county agency when I was 18. That counts as homicide investigation, as there were homicides (and in fact, most of what I was called to photograph were homicides of one sort or another).

I still do training for younger officers on DNA-related matters in crime scene analysis. The pre-test results are given to their superiors who typically make all of them go through the course, but select the higher achievers for further training in homicide investigation. And this is a large department with about 1000 officers, not a small department. I'd say about 5% pass the course with scores on the post-test that please their superiors (who are typically in their 50's and 60's).

Many coroners and medical examiners work up until their 80's (some still on salary, most by contract for particular cases). Obviously, people still testify to juries on these matters for as long as their expertise is sought and relevant.

Dr. Cyril Wecht: The Benefits of Forensic Credentialing | FRONTLINE

Wecht, a spokesman for one of America's largest credentialing organizations, defends the company against claims that it's a diploma mill. He says the purpose of ACFEI is education and that merely having a certificate doesn't qualify a person to be a forensic expert on the witness stand.

www.pbs.org

Cyril is 91 and still active in the field in various ways (mostly as a consultant/mentor/advisor). There a

I was more or less thinking of those PI's who would be visiting the campus endlessly questioning students and frat people, family members, survivors, co-workers, Corner Bar personnel and patrons, knocking on neighbors doors, creeping around the woods and apartment buildings around the neighborhoods, and myriad other tasks required for one conducting a thorough homicide investigation. In no way did I mean to insult anyone because I also hold those you've named in the highest of esteem. Its a caseload that would be challenging to investigators of any age.