ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 30

[lucidium]

I need a refresher on the dog.....it was reportedly found in K's room in crate (no crime in this room), then brought to humane society?

From the MPD KIng Road Homicides FAQ:

What happened to the dog in the house?
There have been numerous requests about the dog found at the residence on the morning of November 13th. Arriving officers entered the residence and found the deceased victims. During the search of the home, a dog was found in a room where the crimes had not been committed. Officers did not find any evidence on the dog and there was no indication the animal had entered the crime scene. The dog was taken to Animal Services and released to a responsible person.

While the dog was in the house when officers arrived, it has not been determined where the dog was physically located when the murders took place.

---

The dog tells us nothing about this case, in my opinion. <modsnip>

 

[Data Sleuth]

One of the most perceptive posts I've read lately.
An alibi and a lawyer and a giant knife indeed.

A lawyer? That’s a bit premature, why would the killer do that if they haven’t even been identified by Law Enforcement?

 

[OldCop]

Why would you be driving 6 hours at one time at all? These were not committed on the same day or even week. If a person were a trucker or traveled for work, it could easily take them through both (or all three) locations at various times, with lots of breaks and/or room rentals if needed. A six hour separation of crimes is nothing. There have been some serial killers (not saying this is a serial killer) that committed murder in several states. Sadly, it's not that odd in the SK world.

This is very true. There is a 4 part docu series airing on Hulu right now called Wild Crime Season 2, about a death in Yosemite NP. Episode 2 of the series details some of the murders of notorious serial killer Henry Lee Lucas and how he traveled from state to state killing people, usually complete strangers, with absolutely no remorse. Episode 3 gives some great explanations about solving a crime through the advances in dna including an artist rendering based on dna to identify previously unidentified bodies and identifying people using dna submitted to genealogy websites by distant relatives of the victim or suspect. This is a pretty interesting true crime documentary especially for those of us following this case since we have been talking about serial killers and forensic genetic genealogy.

 

[LadyBelle]

Moo...

If they list the window for the time of death between 2-5am and the calls were made between 2:30-3:00am I don't see many other ways to explain that. If what we think we know about the time of calls is accurate then either they were alive at least till 3am or someone else made the calls.

If there are texts asking the BF to come over it might of been the killers attempt to lure a 5th victim to the scene or maybe the killer wanted the BF to be the one to discover the bodies.

Without more information the possibilities are almost endless. For instance I have heard people speculate that the girls were calling her BF because they were scared. That might be true but my gut says they would of called others, like the police if he did not answer and they were afraid. They would of also locked their bedroom door. That is another thing we don't know. There's no report of forced entry but the police are not reporting anything.

We have also heard the girls were asleep when they were attacked. If they were scared I don't think they would fall asleep too easily.

All these possibilities raise questions...

1. Were the calls made at the time we think?

2A. Who made the calls?
2B. If the calls were made by someone other than the phones owner how did that person unlock the phone?

3. Why would the TOD be as early as 2am if they have physical evidence like a voicemail after 2AM? Not saying they left a voicemail. Only using that example to illustrate my point that if they think the deaths occurred as early as 2am then they are not sure the girls made those calls between 2:30 and 3:00am.

I understand exactly what you are suggesting and thanks for clarifying.
This killer was tech literate. Otherwise his phone would have pinged via the Wifi when he entered the home.
So he very well could have tried to dupe LE as you are suggesting.

To address some of your thoughts:
- Most kids that age (my son is 19) do not keep their phones password/fingerprint protected.
They're on them so much that's it's too much of a pain to keep unlocking them.
- One of the girls was very safety conscious (I forget which one) so I am certain they would have called 911 if felt in danger.

I think part of the problem is that we are caught between the media, the vocal father, the coroner and LE.
Their stories are not consistent and this includes versions of the timeline.
LE has to know the exact time the calls/texts were made. They are choosing not to share that with us.
So for me, I'm not focusing on the timeline. Not to say that your theory might not be 100% correct
I just think we don't have enough info about it.

 

[layer]

The “we share a dog” message/info comes from this interview with Kaylee’s parents at about the 7:45 mark.

Fox News Interview w/ KG’s parents

Kaylee’s Mom: they still talked every single day. Kaylee just thought that he needed a little break. They were on the mend of getting back together. Kaylee talked to JD the whole time she was here for that week and a half…

Kaylee’s Dad: One of her messages, one of her last messages, she reached (out to?) JD and said “JD get back to me” and he didn’t and she goes “we share a dog together” which they did and she’s like “you need to reach out to me” so…

Kaylee’s Mom: please come over (not sure if she’s quoting Kaylee or if this is her speculation). She was wanting JD to come over…

It’s not clear or specified whether it’s texts she sent or voicemails they heard (from JD) or both. I think maybe texts, which is how Kaylee’s mom determined she was wanting JD to come over.

Initially, I did question whether Murphy was missing/taken out of the house by the killer and Maddie and Kaylee were calling JD because of this. But reading it back, I think it was just drunken calls. I think by the time Maddie’s phone called JD, they were in bed together and Kaylee’s phone had died or was being charged so Kaylee used Maddie’s phone to make the final calls.

K's mom and sister A both said they were calls.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

BBM: This is what I'm thinking. If I locked my boxer behind closed doors he would have rammed the door until someone let him out. You can imagine this dog sensing his owner in harm's way and then smelling all the blood.

Hoping/thankful K's dog was tucked away on the bottom floor of the 3-story house for the duration of the murders, along with the 2 downstairs housemates, separated from the murder scene altogether {ETA: Or was shut off in another room of the house}. Or was let outside beforehand, and came back inside to be led downstairs, which kept the dog and the 2 surviving housemates located downstairs safe. "Thank goodness for small favors" they (the 2 housemates & K's doggie) survived this awful, brutal attack in their home.

 

[Tony358]

I have to think LE really thought in the first couple days they knew who did this -- and thus the "no threat to community"/"crime of passion" proclamations. I wonder, first thought, best thought-wise, if this is so, who they believed was the culprit?

IMO- If I had a child at the University of Idaho, or anyplace nearby, I'd be asking them to take extra precautions right now. The police do not have a suspect. And when they do find a suspect, a cornered animal is a dangerous animal. Anyone who could murder four people in cold blood and escape for weeks with little evidence is a threat to the entire community. Everyone needs to stay vigilant and excercise caution. IMO= The FBI is not going to allocate nearly 50 agents to a "crime of passion" or "a personal vendetta"- this clearly has LE worried, and everyone else should be worried too.

 

[Charlot123]

Moo...

If they list the window for the time of death between 2-5am and the calls were made between 2:30-3:00am I don't see many other ways to explain that. If what we think we know about the time of calls is accurate then either they were alive at least till 3am or someone else made the calls.

If there are texts asking the BF to come over it might of been the killers attempt to lure a 5th victim to the scene or maybe the killer wanted the BF to be the one to discover the bodies.

Without more information the possibilities are almost endless. For instance I have heard people speculate that the girls were calling her BF because they were scared. That might be true but my gut says they would of called others, like the police if he did not answer and they were afraid. They would of also locked their bedroom door. That is another thing we don't know. There's no report of forced entry but the police are not reporting anything.

We have also heard the girls were asleep when they were attacked. If they were scared I don't think they would fall asleep too easily.

All these possibilities raise questions...

1. Were the calls made at the time we think?

2A. Who made the calls?
2B. If the calls were made by someone other than the phones owner how did that person unlock the phone?

3. Why would the TOD be as early as 2am if they have physical evidence like a voicemail after 2AM? Not saying they left a voicemail. Only using that example to illustrate my point that if they think the deaths occurred as early as 2am then they are not sure the girls made those calls between 2:30 and 3:00am.

Here is one thought, and I hope you understand me right. Usually I’d expect young people to text. But alcohol makes people disinhibited, funny, so from people who spent their evening in a bar, even very young, I’d expect calls - exactly like this, one calling, the other one giggling, or vise versa. Just texting if you want to have fun in the evening is a little bit less typical. So if all these calls were texts, I’d have questions.

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

K's mom and sister A both said they were calls.

I know they were calling JD, but it seems unclear whether Kaylee texted those things (“we share a dog” “please come over” “you need to reach out to me”) to him in between calls or if she left voicemail messages to him stating this

 

[AuntTricia]

Difficult to use a phone with gloves (I assume killer used them), so they take them off to use the phone? BIG MISTAKE, since phone wasn't discarded>>> BINGO>>> you have prints and DNA.

Killer packed a stylus in his kill kit for just such purposes.

 

[GhostGhost]

The ME isn’t aware of the case report and what student X saw - nor analysis of the phone.

So, it’s likely 2:00 - 5:00 was the estimate from an autopsy. Merged / considered later with the Phone evidence, it moves to 3:00 to 5:00 am.

MOO.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 20

Your opinion is shared by virtually every single attorney IMO. I agree, too. And take an attorney when you go. but go.

www.websleuths.com

I wondered if the sliding door lock was not locking way back in thread 20.

Either that…or it was recently reported by friends, and houseguests (in an interview) that the back slider was sometimes left unlocked, or possibly had a faulty lock. It didn’t have a code lock like the front door. Young adults/uni students can be very trusting and unassuming at times. Since their private interior bedroom doors were locked maybe they were more “lax” about the slider. How long had they lived at the address? Did they ever report any problems prior to this occurrence? They had nothing to worry about. JMOHO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

I have to think LE really thought in the first couple days they knew who did this -- and thus the "no threat to community"/"crime of passion" proclamations. I wonder, first thought, best thought-wise, if this is so, who they believed was the culprit?

A person known to the victims. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

From the MPD KIng Road Homicides FAQ:

What happened to the dog in the house?
There have been numerous requests about the dog found at the residence on the morning of November 13th. Arriving officers entered the residence and found the deceased victims. During the search of the home, a dog was found in a room where the crimes had not been committed. Officers did not find any evidence on the dog and there was no indication the animal had entered the crime scene. The dog was taken to Animal Services and released to a responsible person.

While the dog was in the house when officers arrived, it has not been determined where the dog was physically located when the murders took place.

---

The dog tells us nothing about this case, in my opinion. No good can come from further discussion. :fingerscrossed:

DNA that could have been potentially left on the collar or - I posted two articles indicating that DNA can be lifted off canine fur and teeth. But it is a very new science.

 

[BondGirl007]

I was referring to the coroner giving information to Mr. G’s underaged daughter.

Underaged daughter? The daughter, Aluvea who has been on TV? She’s married and not underage.

 

[Angelcat13]

IMO....The Gas station camera set up and the CCTV footage is evidence - so perhaps the LE are 'securing' evidence and the people who have obtained it???? I would think a logical thing to do??

Or LE is doing this to make the killer nervous by letting him know they are collecting evidence and getting closer to him. (Hopefully!)

 

[layer]

I know they were calling JD, but it seems unclear whether Kaylee texted those things (“we share a dog” “please come over” “you need to reach out to me”) to him in between calls or if she left voicemail messages to him stating this

It's unclear exactly when those messages were made. They could have been in the days before, when K was home.

But as for the late night calls, they were calls, no mention of texts or voice mails.

Interviewer: ... making calls as late as almost two o'clock
A: Yep
Interviewer: How do you know that?
A: So, she was on my mom's cell plan, so on Sunday I was able to pull those cell records
Interviewer: And you could see that she was calling somebody out...
A: Yep
Interviewer: Does it seem like they may have been involved or does it seem like they...
A: Nope, no not at all. Kaylee had no shame in kind of powercalling, so it fits Kaylee
K's mom: Yeah, and we know who she was calling and this person is, this person was asleep, unfortunately, was not getting the calls. And it was a few calls between, for half an hour she called him a couple times and, but, no, we do not believe she was calling him for help. We believe that she was just calling him to come over. If Kaylee was in imminent danger, her or Maddie, they would have called 911. They would not have been calling this person.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

God forbid to kill him too? Idk, I'm still struggling how others could do this to those kids.... That said Chris Watts left either texts or voicemails on his wifes phone that he'd killed hours before. For him thought he was trying to establish aliby stuff, I wonder if the calls from Kaylee's phone were for the same purpose? I understood Kaylee used the phone a few times and Maddie a couple times, if they voicemails it was not the killer, but if they were texts it could have been the killer sending them. Creepy!

I believe the attempts to reach him were valid and both girls called trying to reach him (in vain). I believe they had heard the disturbance and struggling downstairs as the killer was engaging E & X. This unfolds quickly. They were upstairs and heard him enter (first calls and messages begin) to the point they hear sounds which are unsettling and frightening (fighting, grunting and moaning, shuffling and banging). Then they were engaged as well. Then off he went, as quickly as he came. JMOHO

 

[lucidium]

DNA that could have been potentially left on the collar or - I posted two articles indicating that DNA can be lifted off canine fur and teeth. But it is a very new science.

Why is that relevant though? MPD says no evidence was found on the dog and it was released to the private party a month ago. Even if the perpetrator's DNA was on the dog (unlikely imo) it is long gone now.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I'm not sure why people think this killer is organized. We don't know how much evidence they left behind. Four stabbing deaths do not seem "cold" or "calculated." They seem up-close, personal, heated. But that, too, is just an opinion. Maybe he was the most controlled, tidy guy who ever murdered 4 people in one house. We don't know if the killer had emotions about the victims, or was lost in some sort of fantasy, or was a low-emotion, low-arousal psychopath who sought out murder as a way to feel something. We don't now if the killer is a student or employed by the University or a drifter who saw beautiful college girls going in and out of the house.

Having just watched the Pike County, Ohio murder trial of George Wagner the 4th, a crime involving 8 victims with multiple gunshots to the head and face, it's worth noting that it took 2 years to get an arrest and 4 years to get 2 confessions and one court conviction. The trial took 3 months, probably 2/3 of which was spent putting forensics and items related to the killings into evidence and getting experts to testify about it. We've got half the murders here and only one crime scene but there will still be a mountain of physical evidence from the house. It's not just gathering and testing all of that stuff; it's also how to interpret what they find. Does the evidence at the scene suggest one or two assailants? Does it tell the story of who was killed and in what order? Watch Andy Wilson's closing rebuttal in that trial to see how he sums up the Wagner trial. Wagner was guilty on all 22 counts, including 8 of aggravated murder. The DA did a masterful job of showing the jury (and us) WHY the evidence pointed to guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. There were over a THOUSAND items put into evidence, and the prosecutors had to process that evidence in order to put together a theory of the crime. The evidence comes first. The theory follows and evolves as the evidence comes in. That's the frustration of amateur sleuthing. We have zero or near-zero access to evidence.