ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

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  • #621
True. And University of Idaho has no medical school. In fact, Idaho doesn't have a School of Medicine but it does have a College of Osteopathy (miles away in Meridian). But a pre-med perhaps would have taken anatomy (usually without cadaver work).

<modsnip - please review admin/mod posts on first pages of the thread>
What about University of Washington which is 8 miles from Moscow? Do you happen to know if they have a pre-med or medical school? There could also be nursing schools and veterinary schools.

Just wondering.

JMO
 
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  • #622
I highly doubt that LE will keep a person that has killed 4 people violently just walking around and celebrating Christmas. If they even have the slightest, slightest suspicion on a suspect, they'd have already put him in custody and tried to get a confession or build a case on him.

To the best of my knowledge and belief, it doesn’t work that way.

If they arrested someone based on ‘the slightest suspicion,’ several things would happen.

Chances are that they’d be arresting an innocent person, and giving the defense attorney of the guilty person a lot of extra ammunition, when LE eventually finds the guilty person.

Or, if by some chance their ‘slightest suspicion’ happened to land on the guilty person, he’d be out in a few days, since ‘slightest suspicion’ isn’t enough to hold someone.

Not to mention that in this case, there’s probably a hundred different people that you could have the ‘slightest suspicion’ of. (I exaggerate only slightly.)

Now, one thing that LE DOES do often, similar to what you said, is to arrest a suspect for something else, some relatively petty crime, if they have evidence for that. That gets the suspect off the street, temporarily, at least.

MOO
 
  • #623
I disagree with the idea that the killer had some specialized anatomical knowledge. I think most people understand that the "important parts" are in the chest area and that you should aim there if you are intending to kill. Maybe if the victims had one wound only that would indicate the killer knew specifically where to aim, but I believe the coroner reported that they had multiple wounds. MOO
IMO; Speculation

After Mr and Mrs G talked about K's wounds, I disagree only a little. It doesn't take much anatomical knowledge to google "how to stab someone to death" and see the 7 part short article that gives instruction on how to kill quickly, how to kill quietly, how to kill without hitting bone, etc. Also, those tactics are taught in knife classes and in some branches of the military.

Striking the chest area directly is a bad idea and sometimes breaks knives, certainly makes the killer more tired, takes longer and doesn't use the value of momentum and weight leverage that makes a long fixed blade knife so effective.

According to Mr and Mrs G, the killer struck at and basically destroyed K's liver, and her lungs. You can do that without the difficulties posed by trying to strike the chest/heart. Some online articles recommend 2 stabs (each lung) and then the liver (which causes massive and rapid bleed-out, but not as much arterial blood spurt). The deflation of the lungs means the person can't make a sound. Silent and rapid and much less energy if you're going to kill 4 people. Also, this method can work for a smaller person too. There's more to it, but I've written it before and am beginning to feel that I probably shouldn't.

I am taking the view that each of the victims was killed in much the same way, although obviously, much could have occurred between the killer and each victim to change the basic plan.

This is not specialized anatomical knowledge at all, but it may be knowledge that the average person doesn't have.
 
  • #624
since they still haven't caught him or have any big clue as to who the killer is, i'd argue he didn't leave all that much.

That is assuming that LE does not know who the killer is and just does not have enough evidence to arrest yet hence the call for more info. We can never assume what the police know and what they don't.

JMO
I agree we can't assume we know what they know. Solving crime requires some black boxes, unlike so many other safety issues in our lives.

I do wonder if the killer(s) may have left some DNA behind, though, just due to how quickly they've been able to rule out relationship to other stabbings in the region. Perhaps they have DNA from those cases and there is no match. JMO
 
  • #625
Sure. First, let me point out that a house that size would have hundreds of samples to go through. There are several steps in the process. It's not possible, aside from blood or semen, to know where exactly DNA will be found - so lots of swabs. Here are the national stats:


Now, if your question is why, in a nation like the US, it could take this long for most places to process lab materials, the answer to that is money. That, and a lack of qualified people to run those labs. Where I live, there are people older than me putting in "just a few more months" before they retire - while their labs wait to find new hires. There aren't many. So it's not just money - but if they made the jobs pay more, I suppose eventually they'd have more recruits. They pay around $100,000 a year here for an experienced tech - which is considered "not enough" by my students looking for a program of study. Naturally, it takes a degree in science - preferably genetics or genetic anthropology.

Take a look at Idaho. Homicide - rush situation - is 45-60 days. And that's for each stage of this analysis. First, there would be the separation of organic particles from inorganic - with carpet fibers, clothing fibers, etc, going off for further analysis in another pace, and the biologic evidence going on for separate DNA analysis. Typically, one would want a cluster of various blood cells and samples from the autopsy. But for touch DNA, they'd need to include other detectable bits of DNA from swabs - all the swabs have to be analyzed - but only some will have DNA.

So for the two stages to take place and the touch DNA to be isolated and sent to yet another specialist, it would be 90-120 days (from receipt of samples, so let's say 7 days after the murders). I doubt they'll release any final autopsy report until all of this is done.

Since the DNA of the victims is only being used for ruling out who the perp is, that's likely been done. But now - they'll process certain swabs/samples first (getting stranger DNA from a pool of blood is not guaranteed to work - part of it will be luck). A well prepared killer would leave very little touch DNA. The DNA from all around the house (door jambs, door knobs, faucets, etc) will likely turn up dozens of partial profiles.

The sorting of partial profiles into meaningful perp data may or may not work and can take months. They would have little bits of a strand that we can picture as string - a piece of string that would reach to the moon and back 150,000 times. Almost none of it is useful for the task at hand - just little areas that contain SNP's (markers unique to families, lineages and sometimes, individuals).

If they get lucky and do have, say, spit from the perp or the perp cut himself or lost a glove, they can move on to trying to find him through genealogical DNA analysis in as early as 6 months, maybe even less. If they think they know who he is, then they'll be trying to get trace DNA from him by the usual investigative means.

I am guessing that within just the bedroom zone of the two rooms, they're going to find DNA profiles of more than 2 people.

Did you know that even washing, with bleach, does not destroy all the DNA in underwear? And that women's underwear has been used to track their killers or to create a list of possible suspects? So the forensic vacuum contents could contain lots and lots of profiles - including people who lived in the house a year or more before. It's kind of a forensic nightmare.

People are used to saying that "rapid DNA results" occur - yes, they do. If you give an actual cheek swab and it goes directly into lab solution. Can be overnight, if the tech is available. But the murderer isn't going to give that kind of sample - and the victims' blood types and DNA are already known (and only useful to exclude stranger DNA, really).
Thanks so much for this information. It opened my eyes. I had wondered why DNA testing was taking so long but it hasn’t been long at all. I fear that this is a serial killer and he or she may never be found, unless it was a student who is a budding killer.
Even if it was someone they knew, DNA could only rule out potential suspects thus far.
This is scary stuff. I also believe the crime was planned.
 
  • #626
Not sure how you would know that there are many cases that the perpetrator is known but that there isn't enough evidence. Do you have a particular case(s) in mind?

IMO, it’s all too often a lack of funds and training that prevents LE from gathering proper evidence at a crime scene.

I agree, there is no guarantee. I stand by my opinion that there is no perfect crime. It’s not advisable to charge someone unless prosecution have an ironclad case, as double jeopardy can play a role and then justice is lost forever.

This narrative is in MOO.
Good to see you over here also.

I agree. There is no perfect crime. The killer always makes a mistake. Or they buy a pair of shoes from Walmart and keep the receipt. LOL. A rush to arrest could lead to a NG verdict and a killer walks.

JMO
 
  • #627
They have a Military Science program, with a robust enrollment and classes in "Profession of Arms," "Army Physical Fitness I, II, III, IV, V" "Leadership," "Military History," "Ethics."

I assume this is a course of study for the University's ROTC cadets. (Reserve Officer Training Corps, for those who may be from outside the US or unfamiliar with this acronym).

Again, I am not ruling any particular person or group out, in my own quest to understand this crime. And when I say I'd bet my lunch money that it was *not* a ROTC cadet, that means I'm betting about $1 - when I bet the whole farm, it means I think I may be onto something.
@10ofRods, I haven’t been able to go back and read the threads, but I’m interested in whether you believe this crime was committed by a serial killer or someone very close who truly had a score to settle?
 
  • #628
IMO
1 Suspect ACQUAINTED with roomies/maybe getaway driver
X and Es previous whereabouts not relevant
Suspect on drugs or inebriated
He’s no friend tho….
Definitely not a friend! Lol!!! Very good point. No true friend could do something like this… but it makes you wonder how much maybe the 4 truly trusted this person … wolf in sheeps clothing.
 
  • #629
To the best of my knowledge and belief, it doesn’t work that way.

If they arrested someone based on ‘the slightest suspicion,’ several things would happen.

Chances are that they’d be arresting an innocent person, and giving the defense attorney of the guilty person a lot of extra ammunition, when LE eventually finds the guilty person.

Or, if by some chance their ‘slightest suspicion’ happened to land on the guilty person, he’d be out in a few days, since ‘slightest suspicion’ isn’t enough to hold someone.

Not to mention that in this case, there’s probably a hundred different people that you could have the ‘slightest suspicion’ of. (I exaggerate only slightly.)

Now, one thing that LE DOES do often, similar to what you said, is to arrest a suspect for something else, some relatively petty crime, if they have evidence for that. That gets the suspect off the street, temporarily, at least.

MOO
Agreed. Most importantly is the simple fact that if LE isn’t properly prepared at the time of the arrest, the detainee will be released for lack of evidence. So if they act prematurely and in haste, it will prove detrimental and costly. It’s a process, with lots of hoops to jump through and a trillion traps along the way. They must build a foundation with teeth. One which will hold him until the trial(s). I believe they are doing precisely that. The public is in a “need to know” position. We definitely do not NEED to know anything they (LE) are gathering to support their case. Plain and simple. We can speculate and imagine. The KNOWING is in the hands of LE. JMOO.
 
  • #630
@10ofRods, I haven’t been able to go back and read the threads, but I’m interested in whether you believe this crime was committed by a serial killer or someone very close who truly had a score to settle?
Although I’m not 10ofRods, I lean toward the former. Targeted home, subjects/victims not personally or intimately known to the killer. JMOO.
 
  • #631
They have a Military Science program, with a robust enrollment and classes in "Profession of Arms," "Army Physical Fitness I, II, III, IV, V" "Leadership," "Military History," "Ethics."

I assume this is a course of study for the University's ROTC cadets. (Reserve Officer Training Corps, for those who may be from outside the US or unfamiliar with this acronym).

Again, I am not ruling any particular person or group out, in my own quest to understand this crime. And when I say I'd bet my lunch money that it was *not* a ROTC cadet, that means I'm betting about $1 - when I bet the whole farm, it means I think I may be onto something.
I believe it is reasonable to consider someone with a background in the use of the knife and the way it applied in this case.

As I reflect on past murders reported in the media there is usually a pattern observed. I believe, the Moscow police said they were observing a pattern in one of their updates.

There is on scenario where a youth is falling outside the fold of his peers. He has odd behavior and a period of unstable behavior is observed along with the implementation of a plan. They seem fixated on their vision and carry out a series of actions to fulfill their mission.

Sometimes, they expect to die and wish someone would end their torment. Sometime, they realize what there vision has led them to and they attempt to hide even though they are captured in the media. Most of the time, it is a gun of some type. Someone in the family has a history with the use of firearms.

In this case, a knife is used in four individual instances repeating one after the other within a short period of time. It seems that skill is a factor and familiarity with using it in the dark is necessary. I suggest that the suspect is familiar with hunting knives and that it is commonly used within the family or group they gathered with.

Add to this, a person exposed to family culture verbal outburst or physical outburst as a common occurrence, and psychological development affected.
 
  • #632
IMO; Speculation

After Mr and Mrs G talked about K's wounds, I disagree only a little. It doesn't take much anatomical knowledge to google "how to stab someone to death" and see the 7 part short article that gives instruction on how to kill quickly, how to kill quietly, how to kill without hitting bone, etc. Also, those tactics are taught in knife classes and in some branches of the military.

Striking the chest area directly is a bad idea and sometimes breaks knives, certainly makes the killer more tired, takes longer and doesn't use the value of momentum and weight leverage that makes a long fixed blade knife so effective.

According to Mr and Mrs G, the killer struck at and basically destroyed K's liver, and her lungs. You can do that without the difficulties posed by trying to strike the chest/heart. Some online articles recommend 2 stabs (each lung) and then the liver (which causes massive and rapid bleed-out, but not as much arterial blood spurt). The deflation of the lungs means the person can't make a sound. Silent and rapid and much less energy if you're going to kill 4 people. Also, this method can work for a smaller person too. There's more to it, but I've written it before and am beginning to feel that I probably shouldn't.

I am taking the view that each of the victims was killed in much the same way, although obviously, much could have occurred between the killer and each victim to change the basic plan.

This is not specialized anatomical knowledge at all, but it may be knowledge that the average person doesn't have.
Yep this is probably more info than I need in my lifetime. On the other hand it’s good to know in a case of self defense. You said stabbing the chest can be difficult and stabbing the lungs can deflate them, but aren’t the lungs in the chest?
Secondly, Didn’t the killer need to know what he was aiming for to keep the scene quiet?
 
  • #633
True. And University of Idaho has no medical school. In fact, Idaho doesn't have a School of Medicine but it does have a College of Osteopathy (miles away in Meridian). But a pre-med perhaps would have taken anatomy (usually without cadaver work).

<modsnip - please review admin/mod notes on the first pages of the thread>
I'm not sure about UI (or other schools in Idaho), but WSU in Pullman has a college of veterinary medicine.
 
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  • #634
Agreed. Most importantly is the simple fact that if LE isn’t properly prepared at the time of the arrest, the detainee will be released for lack of evidence. So if they act prematurely and in haste, it will prove detrimental and costly. It’s a process, with lots of hoops to jump through and a trillion traps along the way. They must build a foundation with teeth. One which will hold him until the trial(s). I believe they are doing precisely that. The public is in a “need to know” position. We definitely do not NEED to know anything they (LE) are gathering to support their case. Plain and simple. We can speculate and imagine. The KNOWING is in the hands of LE. JMOO.

My biggest fear in this case (and IMO the reason why BAU is so heavily involved) is that LE fears for the safety of witnesses in this case. And they should be afraid. Chief Fry comes across as reassuring, but I'm sure part of him is quite worried about what this perp will do next.

If they were to arrest this person without the strongest, most damning evidence, he would be out on bail (like Barry Morphew) fairly quickly. Then what? They've interviewed a *lot* of people, and some of them are going to be key witnesses. We learned in the Morphew case that those ankle bracelets are not a perfect solution, as when the geofence is violated, the signal goes to some human somewhere, who then contacts LE and there's real lag time there.

This perp is not messing around. I do not believe this was a traditional crime of passion. I think they're dealing with a cold-blooded murderer who takes some enjoyment from vengeance and believes their own cause is always right and must be defended.

I agree they need to get him, charge him with several things, and show the judge he must be held until trial. They need to have their trial game up and running, as well.

I don't see why medical knowledge would be necessary. Everyone knows where a person's heart and lungs are. If you want to kill someone with a knife, you know where to stab.

But, for greatest efficiency with a fixed blade knife, you wouldn't exactly use a stabbing motion (and Mr G seems to imply this was the case). So it's not just someone who has watched TV and gotten ideas about how to stab - this is someone who knows how to use that kind of knife.

I totally agree that no medical knowledge is necessary, but I do believe it was intentional that the heart was avoided, the jugular and carotid were avoided etc. Coroner clearly said upper body/torso. It's unusual to see someone go for the liver, as Mr and Mrs G have said happened to K., but it's highly effective and something other than a stabbing motion is typically used (think using body weight/momentum and knife is like a bayonet). I think anyone who is interested in sharp blade weaponry would likely know this (although some wouldn't) and it in no way takes military OR medical training.

And some people have to really think about where the liver is (half of my students guess the wrong side in their first quiz - which means everyone is likely guessing). My students (mostly freshmen and sophomores, basic human biology class) also do not know what the liver does or why it might be lethal to have severe damage to it. My class is a prereq for the forensic sequence, if you're wondering why we're taking that approach (it''s also important in paleoanthropology as we try to ascertain causes of death in the past as well). Kind of a niche knowledge to have, IMO.
 
  • #635
IMO; Speculation

After Mr and Mrs G talked about K's wounds, I disagree only a little. It doesn't take much anatomical knowledge to google "how to stab someone to death" and see the 7 part short article that gives instruction on how to kill quickly, how to kill quietly, how to kill without hitting bone, etc. Also, those tactics are taught in knife classes and in some branches of the military.

Striking the chest area directly is a bad idea and sometimes breaks knives, certainly makes the killer more tired, takes longer and doesn't use the value of momentum and weight leverage that makes a long fixed blade knife so effective.

According to Mr and Mrs G, the killer struck at and basically destroyed K's liver, and her lungs. You can do that without the difficulties posed by trying to strike the chest/heart. Some online articles recommend 2 stabs (each lung) and then the liver (which causes massive and rapid bleed-out, but not as much arterial blood spurt). The deflation of the lungs means the person can't make a sound. Silent and rapid and much less energy if you're going to kill 4 people. Also, this method can work for a smaller person too. There's more to it, but I've written it before and am beginning to feel that I probably shouldn't.

I am taking the view that each of the victims was killed in much the same way, although obviously, much could have occurred between the killer and each victim to change the basic plan.

This is not specialized anatomical knowledge at all, but it may be knowledge that the average person doesn't have.
Fascinating. And I believe he is most assuredly a planner. Using his careful, concise forethought and knowledge…he proved to be quick, methodical, and accurately deadly. JMOO.
 
  • #636
What about University of Washington which is 8 miles from Moscow? Do you happen to know if they have a pre-med or medical school? There could also be nursing schools and veterinary schools.

Just wondering.

JMO
It is Washington State University (WSU) that is nearby, in Pullman, Washington.

University of Washington is in Seattle (with satellite campuses in Bothell and Tacoma).

As I posted recently, there is a college of veterinary medicine at WSU.
 
  • #637
If there's no link? Then it's just my own 2¢.

And if there is a link it's somebody else's 2¢.
 
  • #638
Great perspective.

Yes! Agreed. The purported police “bodycamscream” audio thing while ticketing underage drinkers is simply “beating a dead horse” IMOO. If in fact it is a scream at all. LE has not linked it, in any manner, to what occurred at 1122 king road.
LE released that body cam footage though.

JMO
 
  • #639
Agreed. Most importantly is the simple fact that if LE isn’t properly prepared at the time of the arrest, the detainee will be released for lack of evidence. So if they act prematurely and in haste, it will prove detrimental and costly. It’s a process, with lots of hoops to jump through and a trillion traps along the way. They must build a foundation with teeth. One which will hold him until the trial(s). I believe they are doing precisely that. The public is in a “need to know” position. We definitely do not NEED to know anything they (LE) are gathering to support their case. Plain and simple. We can speculate and imagine. The KNOWING is in the hands of LE. JMOO.
The dead pan factual and carefully worded manner in previous generations imparted an image of trust. During the past 20 yrs this has changed to the fallibility of law enforcement and a sense of public entitlement. Trust, respect, and partnering cooperation has helped in the past. I believe we need to be aware of our emotional bias and those we encounter. Empathy enables us to observe with more objective eyes.
 
  • #640
My biggest fear in this case (and IMO the reason why BAU is so heavily involved) is that LE fears for the safety of witnesses in this case. And they should be afraid. Chief Fry comes across as reassuring, but I'm sure part of him is quite worried about what this perp will do next.

If they were to arrest this person without the strongest, most damning evidence, he would be out on bail (like Barry Morphew) fairly quickly. Then what? They've interviewed a *lot* of people, and some of them are going to be key witnesses. We learned in the Morphew case that those ankle bracelets are not a perfect solution, as when the geofence is violated, the signal goes to some human somewhere, who then contacts LE and there's real lag time there.

This perp is not messing around. I do not believe this was a traditional crime of passion. I think they're dealing with a cold-blooded murderer who takes some enjoyment from vengeance and believes their own cause is always right and must be defended.

I agree they need to get him, charge him with several things, and show the judge he must be held until trial. They need to have their trial game up and running, as well.



But, for greatest efficiency with a fixed blade knife, you wouldn't exactly use a stabbing motion (and Mr G seems to imply this was the case). So it's not just someone who has watched TV and gotten ideas about how to stab - this is someone who knows how to use that kind of knife.

I totally agree that no medical knowledge is necessary, but I do believe it was intentional that the heart was avoided, the jugular and carotid were avoided etc. Coroner clearly said upper body/torso. It's unusual to see someone go for the liver, as Mr and Mrs G have said happened to K., but it's highly effective and something other than a stabbing motion is typically used (think using body weight/momentum and knife is like a bayonet). I think anyone who is interested in sharp blade weaponry would likely know this (although some wouldn't) and it in no way takes military OR medical training.

And some people have to really think about where the liver is (half of my students guess the wrong side in their first quiz - which means everyone is likely guessing). My students (mostly freshmen and sophomores, basic human biology class) also do not know what the liver does or why it might be lethal to have severe damage to it. My class is a prereq for the forensic sequence, if you're wondering why we're taking that approach (it''s also important in paleoanthropology as we try to ascertain causes of death in the past as well). Kind of a niche knowledge to have, IMO.
Question. Why not aim for the heart or carotid first? Is it a means of being more cold blooded to see them stuffer?
 
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