ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[Deleted member 718]

Yep this is probably more info than I need in my lifetime. On the other hand it’s good to know in a case of self defense. You said stabbing the chest can be difficult and stabbing the lungs can deflate them, but aren’t the lungs in the chest?
Secondly, Didn’t the killer need to know what he was aiming for to keep the scene quiet?

If the killer/s objective was a quiet scene, they would have sliced the trachea. A horizontal cut across the throat. But that didn't happen AFAIK.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

LE released that body cam footage though.

JMO

For reasons of being transparent

 

[rsd1200]

Not to mention, the coroners office hasn’t released any documents which reflect or comment upon the victim’s stab wounds, how many were found on each, or more precisely “where” any of the deadly ones struck. Until that time, it’s safe to say we are all pretty much sitting in the dark. JMOO

Coroner Mabbutt was pretty clear about what she saw.

"It was late at night or early in the morning so it seems likely that maybe they were sleeping," said Mabbutt. The coroner explained that each victim had been stabbed multiple times and most of them had a single injury that was the "lethal stab wound." "The fatal ones were to the chest area or the upper body area," said Mabbutt, who noted that "a pretty large knife" was used in the attack.

An Idaho coroner says 'somebody that's pretty angry' stabbed 4 college students to death in their beds, likely while they were sleeping

Latah County Coroner Cathy Mabbutt said each victim had been stabbed multiple times with a "pretty large knife."

news.yahoo.com

Mabbutt visited the crime scene and reached out to each family member to disclose details from the autopsies.
The students were ambushed as they slept in their beds at 1122 King Road with a large fixed-blade knife, according to police and Mabbutt. Each victim had multiple stab wounds. "It had to be a really big knife to inflict those injuries and kill four people," she said. At least one victim had defensive wounds, which suggested she awoke during the attack, Mabbutt noted.

Moscow has had its share of killings, but the quadruple homicide is "the first time they haven’t known who did it in a short period of time,"Mabbutt, said.

Idaho murders: Coroner weighs in on toxicology reports, describes her role in case

Toxicology reports for four slain University of Idaho students are unlikely to offer any new clues in the unsolved murders, the local coroner told Fox News Digital.

www.foxnews.com

Mabbutt said it was likely the four had bled out in the home.

She [Mabbutt] said DNA samples have been taken from the scene and are being processed. When pressed, she said it was "possible" that some of the DNA being tested may not be of the four victims. "There were nail clippings that were taken, and other ones that are being sent off, and so that will be processed," she said. They are awaiting final autopsy results, which will not be available for another four to six weeks, pending toxicology. Mabbutt said in this case, the toxicology reports likely wouldn't be important to the investigation.

Coroner offers new details about fatal slaying of 4 U of Idaho students after preliminary autopsies

The four students were found stabbed to death inside a home in Moscow, Idaho, on Nov. 13.

www.today.com

 

[10ofRods]

I'm not sure about UI (or other schools in Idaho), but WSU in Pullman has a college of veterinary medicine.

Yep - I thought of that too. But Moscow also has someone going around experimenting on animals, IMO. Truthfully, my view is that this person is internet savvy, spends a lot of time online and probably just googled - the instructions on various ways to knife someone are readily available with pro's and con's for each type of stabbing. Yep, that's modern life.

Perhaps we have a cyberstalker here as well, wouldn't surprise me. But beyond that - we have a person with a decidedly broken mind. I wonder if the killer thinks of his killing as being done in a special mind state of some kind or whether he believes he's in his ordinary mind at the time.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

Question. Why not aim for the heart or carotid first? Is it a means of being more cold blooded to see them stuffer?

What info do you have that indicates method or approach. Oh, the coroner's report. It is possible reason she believes it was an ambush in their sleep is the lack of defensive wounds and the angle of entry. If the person is lying down and where it appeared applied from the side straight down or pushed forward from the center. The front of the torso was the main area with little to no entry on the side or back as if turning away. That may be a way to arrive at her conclusion.

 

[layer]

It's just strange that she started out in mid-August as a campus-based student, with a lease, but decided to leave. It just keeps popping up in my mind that perhaps she was scared. Of something.

She had completed all her studies and was set to graduate, she would have been in the winter graduating class that had their somber commencement on December 10th. So other than partying and showing off her new vehicle that weekend, she had no reason to be in Moscow.

JMHO

 

[Arkay]

Some threads back, another poster phrased it perfectly regarding today's media. I can't remember his/her exact quote, and I am being lazy for not scrolling through all the threads to find it, but I also share this person's opinion in that unfortunately, it is more important to today's media to get it out there quickly and to be first to report it than it is to be accurate.

True, but IMO this has been happening since newspapers were invented.

Just think about Harry Truman famously holding up a newspaper with the headline "DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN."

Of course in those days there was no internet to immediately broadcast "news" that any person could write and disseminate, no YouTube podcasters who just want subscribers and clicks, no 24 hour news shows on TV where the anchorperson has to fill time, no SM , no creepy websites like 4Chan where any ghoul can suggest any wild theory and name names that aren't involved.

Then IMO these erroneous "news" items spread all over and cause harm to anyone innocently accused, and tangle up LE trying to solve this case.

That's why at WS we are confined to MSM and LE, and even MSM can get things wrong in their haste to have "breaking news."

Jmo

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

Yep - I thought of that too. But Moscow also has someone going around experimenting on animals, IMO. Truthfully, my view is that this person is internet savvy, spends a lot of time online and probably just googled - the instructions on various ways to knife someone are readily available with pro's and con's for each type of stabbing. Yep, that's modern life.

Perhaps we have a cyberstalker here as well, wouldn't surprise me. But beyond that - we have a person with a decidedly broken mind. I wonder if the killer thinks of his killing as being done in a special mind state of some kind or whether he believes he's in his ordinary mind at the time.

Thanks for this. Truly well (written) stated. All points I’ve considered as well. With everything accessible on the internet, all the info is at his fingertips. And yes, I wonder if he is reading about his work online…even here. JMOO.

 

[10ofRods]

Thanks so much for this information. It opened my eyes. I had wondered why DNA testing was taking so long but it hasn’t been long at all. I fear that this is a serial killer and he or she may never be found, unless it was a student who is a budding killer.
Even if it was someone they knew, DNA could only rule out potential suspects thus far.
This is scary stuff. I also believe the crime was planned.

I go back and forth between those two positions also (a local - probably a student but possible budding serial killer - vs. longer range serial killer type). College towns do attract some opportunistic bad actors. It could be someone who was once a student, long ago, and remembers how students live (casual about locking doors, friendly to strangers, many people gathering in houses, etc).

I believe it was planned, as well (at the very least, mentally rehearsed but I'm also thinking the killer took steps to guard against leaving DNA in the first place - so I am not at all optimistic that DNA will help, in fact it could hinder).

What if the DNA analysis shows 30+ different partial profiles from non-victims? What then? Use only the ones with relevant SNP data? If they do that, the defense will have a field day. Juries want open and shut DNA evidence, a clear ID of a person. What LE needs is other evidence to show that a particular person was there in that house, then a partial DNA profile that matches that person could help. It's going to have to be handled delicately, in any case (the legal case).

Naturally, the place where they found this DNA will be exceedingly important to the story at trial.

 

[Love Never Fails]

If the killer/s objective was a quiet scene, they would have sliced the trachea. A horizontal cut across the throat. But that didn't happen AFAIK.

All this just boggles my mind. It sound like he enjoyed seeing them suffer. That breaks my heart.

 

[Montecore1]

IMO, it’s all too often a lack of funds and training that prevents LE from gathering proper evidence at a crime scene.

You may be right but I do not think that is the case in this investigation.

 

[wary]

LE released that body cam footage though.

JMO

I suspect that LE released it, (body cam down the road from the house,) because they didn’t think it was significant.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

What info do you have that indicates method or approach

I'm not LoveNeverFails, but the info about liver and lungs comes from Mr and Mrs G

And I believe the killer wanted to avoid the blood saturation on his own person that comes from a carotid cut, plus, that's not as easy to do to a sleeping victim. The issue about the length of suffering is a sad topic, but sometimes it takes a while for people to bleed out through the jugular or carotid as well (which is why we sometimes see multiple slashes to the throat, forensically).

We don't know the size of the knife used, but the large (regular) size Ka-Bar style knife is 7 inches. It's designed to be long enough that a person can use it as a personal defense knife and reach the heart/lungs from just beneath the rib cage. Training with said knife says to use a saber style grip, not the traditional "stabbing" style grip (which puts the side of one's hand against the hilt, with one's thumb facing up - saber grip is the opposite, giving more control over what the knife does inside the body and making self-injury less probable).

(I didn't know all of this before this case, but I do have atlases of forensic wounds available and a high tolerance for looking at forensic pictures).

 

[BondGirl007]

She had completed all her studies and was set to graduate, she would have been in the winter graduating class that had their somber commencement on December 10th. So other than partying and showing off her new vehicle that weekend, she had no reason to be in Moscow.

JMHO

Can someone please tell me what MSM is?

Mainstream Media

 

[Diddian]

I wonder if Moscow has any transitional housing for offender reentry into the community ("halfway houses") in the vicinity of downtown Moscow.

When my daughter attended UW in Seattle, I scouted those out and discovered one just a couple of blocks from where her off-campus apartment was.

I think it is a TERRIBLE idea to locate those in (or close to) a university district where young adults are drinking to excess and may not be very discerning about who they are hanging out around. But, I suspect they sometimes are located there because with so many transitional residents, there is less opposition than there would be in neighborhoods with long-established residents.

 

[layer]

I believe LE was forced to release it—Freedom of Information Act request. Now, if LE had felt that the body cam was significant, they could have fought releasing it, but they didn’t.

MOO

Was the underage drinking Band Field bodycam footage released because of FOIA? I thought MPD had just released it, possibly following a leak.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

One reason I think this case must be unusual is the take of the many experts from detectives to FBI to profilers who have chimed in and given their perspective. The combined experience of all of them together is impressive, and yet they do not agree.
While I understand that their experience is liked to a highly informed gut instinct, some based their thoughts on studies, statistics, and large numbers of cases.
These basic thoughts are still in debate regarding this quadruple murder that is 5 weeks old. I‘m sure some are known by LE, but based on what is known the experts can’t seem to solidly agree.
- male or female
- individual or pair
- known or unknown to victims
- peer student or older
- local or not
- prior experience with violent crimes or not
- hiding in the house or entered after everyone was asleep
- drove or walked to and from
- loner or member of social group

I wonder if crime trends change, and the categories of the past may have never fit very tightly and as enough research is available to apply for understanding- trends change.
So many comparisons have been made to famous killers, and yet society has changed in dramatic ways since these killers were active.
How has social media, expansions of video media outlets, and the web in general changed the information available to criminals? I would assume these info sources have dramatically changed crime.
We know that web based crime is rampant And changes so rapidly that hackers seem to evolve as LE is trying to stay one step ahead to react and attempt to prevent.
Surely it is the same with other types of crime including stalking, predation, and voyeurism.
Platforms for criminals to teach each other have expanded- a budding criminal does not have to be incarcerated to learn- forums are full of how to discussions.

For example in this case- What even does the choice of weapon and wounds mean?
We know the weapon had a sharp blade- it has been described as Rambo or KaBar or fixed blade hunting knife.
Some experts have strongly suggested that the knife and method support that the perp must have access to military gear and military experience. With online shopping and a vast library of how tos- how can this be a strong expectation?
A person could buy online, watch how to videos, practice on a raw chicken.
What is tough for me to walk through is the mental preparation, do video games allow for a mental preparation?
Connect all these pieces together with a motive, unhinged mental illness, and In the past 25+ years we should be seeing new kinds of trained killers- shouldn’t we?

Apologies for the length, I’ve tried to edit gettign sleeping
JMO

You are staying it truthfully. It is like the beginning of a graduate thesis where the subject is studied and other research highlights results of the well defined case the read. No one truly understands the details of your approach until several years after when you are presenting the case.

 

[maskedwoman]

It's a really good article from a close friend/sorority sister who lives in a home right behind 1122.

It is indeed. Although, I thought this one bullet was just silly. I guess the paper couldn't resist that one bit of melodrama.

• Despite an extensive and lengthy investigation, spanning 16 days, families of the victims have accused police of withholding details in an effort to catch the killer

Of course the police are withholding information. And of course it's in an effort to catch the killer. SMH. There is probably a ton of information the police will never release. And I'm sure that includes possibilities they have to consider, that the family would just as soon not know about or have in the public domain, to make sure they have not wrongly eliminated or ignored any possible suspects.

 

[wary]

Was the underage drinking Band Field bodycam footage released because of FOIA? I thought MPD had just released it, possibly following a leak.

You’re probably right! Thanks.

 

[al66pine]

SPREADSHEET or FLOW CHART NEEDED???

....That’s more or less my general theory, and even that is on a wide spectrum. I’d need a spreadsheet or flow chart to even begin to sort out the various gradations of possibilities and eventualities,... too exhausting to fully contemplate....

snipped for focus. @Txbarfly Agreeing w this ^.

Yes, printing the various possibilities, theories, postulations, hypotheses, and suppositions would take paper the size of a KING SIZED BEDSHEET.
And that's if we omit rumors about a little green man in a Martian flying saucer landing on King Road in the wee hours that morning.

OTOH, the actual LE-confirmed facts, well, they fit on a 3" x 5" INDEX CARD. imo jmo moo

Four uni students fatally stabbed in off-campus house, so bizarre, so sad.