ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #11

[desert-blue]

I would ask you who in the USA has the mandate to investigate kidnapping ? is it not the FBI ?

If a mother has a child go missing in a remote forest should she dial the FBI in Washington , or the local sheriff and searchers ?

At what point should the local sheriff involve the FBI ? Should he not do a good physical search first? Even then , why bring the FBI in without any real indication of kidnapping ? . There is none. Only speculation. But the sheriff did anyway , I say good for him , I cannot find anything he did wrong.

The sheriff doesn't seem to think Deorr was kidnapped. When his investigation went in a "different direction," it seemed to me that finding any available cameras in the area would be important. I'm not sure why he would wait for the FBI to check for cameras as you suggested. Camera images could be important in figuring out other scenarios as well, so I would think the sheriff would look into that (perhaps before even calling in the FBI). That was my only point. I don't disagree that the FBI investigates kidnapping, but it generally starts with local LE.

 

[ILOKAL]

Post by Purplepixil:
Do you really believe that lying to a guilty suspect in order to obtain a confession is really "reprehensible"?? Really? IMO LE not using every trick in the book to obtain a confession from a guilty person is negligent. Would you really feel this way if a (guilty) suspect was in custody for a crime against you / your family / a loved one? If so you're a better person than I as I'd give LE permission to do whatever it takes (within legal restrictions) to obtain a guilty confession from a guilty person.

Reply:
I snipped to focus on what you addressed to me specifically.

To answer you, a resounding YES, I believe with all my heart that lying to a "guilty" suspect in order to obtain a "confession" is ABSOLUTELY reprehensible. But before I explain my position, just what you asked in that first sentence speaks volumes. Suspects are NEVER guilty! NEVER! In the US, a person is INNOCENT, not simply "not guilty", but INNOCENT until proven guilty in a Court of Law of competent jurisdiction. You've found the "suspect" guilty as soon as he has been placed under arrest. That's frightening to the core.

I'll tell you a very abbreviated version of a personal story. You may then have a better understanding of my position and false "confessions" that were "created" during interrogations.

My late (first) husband was a military officer and we were stationed in Europe. He was murdered by a soldier under his command because my husband was due to testify at the soldier's Article 32 investigation. The cold-blooded murder happened during a field training exercise. You can imagine the chaos that an officer was murdered. There were several suspects. During interrogations a "confession" was obtained from one of soldiers. One of the OTHER soldiers became an "eye witness" to the crime and testified at his trial.

To make this long, sad story short, because of the research I did, it became known to me that the "eye witness" was actually the one who committed the murder and the convicted soldier was completely innocent. I contacted the JAG officers that prosecuted the case with the information I found and the convicted soldier was set free. A new trial took place and the REAL murderer was convicted.

In order to obtain this false "confession", stories were created and lies were told by the investigators. So rather than a trial on the merits of the case, an innocent man was sent to prison. But for a person (me) who didn't think it made sense that the person who confessed was actually guilty, this innocent man would still be at Fort Leavenworth today.

I appreciate your time.

 

[ReadySet]

I'd have to think a bit on your question. But I will say that in the case of Hannah Graham that Police Chief was...marvelous. If you haven't read that case please do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Hannah_Graham

He chased her killer and told every step of the way and had the support of the whole city. That city even organized lunches to be brought into the police station every single day the search was on.

He showed video of her being followed on the square, told where her car was parked and told step by step where he was searching.

I felt at times like I was one of the team.

He solved the murder mystery in record time.

Albemarle County Sheriff Chip Harding is lobbying lawmakers for DNA for those that commit misdemeaners to be in the data base. Had Jesse Matthews DNA been in the data base this murder would not have happened, Morgans murder and the attempted rape would have been solved years earlier and Hanna might still be alive because he would have been off the streets.
http://wtvr.com/2015/01/28/hannah-graham-va-lawmakers-dna-database/

Chief Longo also brought justice for Morgan Harrington and the unnamed witness that was attacked by this beast a couple of years before Morgan.

Talk about a man that knows his stuff and isn't afraid of anything kudos to Charlottesville Police Chief Tim Longo.

BTW for those of you interested. 48 Hours season premiere is this Saturday night. It's the Hanna Graham Murder Case. Please watch it and watch the sheriff.

MOO of course.

I agree LE did a great job in those cases.

If there was video of little Deorr shortly before he went missing, and a suspicious person in that video, like in Hannah's case, then I imagine LE's response in this case would be different.

 

[Dee10]

ILOKAL I am so sorry for your loss, so sad. Thankfully, for the innocent person and your husband (may he rest in peace) you uncovered the truth.

I don't have a problem if the police lie to a suspect and say for instance "someone can place you there" or "the jig is up; we have your fingerprints" an innocent person will not confess if they know otherwise right? Today there has to be evidence to go along with a confession or even with an eye-witness pointing a finger IIRC there has to be some evidence backing up the accusation usually for charges to be laid. Trying a case is very expensive. In your case, it seems like there was manufacturing of evidence at trial which of course is wrong on every level.

The police nor the public have to assume anyone is innocent until a trial is over, only the judge & jury do. I can understand why you may feel otherwise though.

 

[ReadySet]

Post by Purplepixil:
Do you really believe that lying to a guilty suspect in order to obtain a confession is really "reprehensible"?? Really? IMO LE not using every trick in the book to obtain a confession from a guilty person is negligent. Would you really feel this way if a (guilty) suspect was in custody for a crime against you / your family / a loved one? If so you're a better person than I as I'd give LE permission to do whatever it takes (within legal restrictions) to obtain a guilty confession from a guilty person.

Reply:
I snipped to focus on what you addressed to me specifically.

To answer you, a resounding YES, I believe with all my heart that lying to a "guilty" suspect in order to obtain a "confession" is ABSOLUTELY reprehensible. But before I explain my position, just what you asked in that first sentence speaks volumes. Suspects are NEVER guilty! NEVER! In the US, a person is INNOCENT, not simply "not guilty", but INNOCENT until proven guilty in a Court of Law of competent jurisdiction. You've found the "suspect" guilty as soon as he has been placed under arrest. That's frightening to the core.

I'll tell you a very abbreviated version of a personal story. You may then have a better understanding of my position and false "confessions" that were "created" during interrogations.

My late (first) husband was a military officer and we were stationed in Europe. He was murdered by a soldier under his command because my husband was due to testify at the soldier's Article 32 investigation. The cold-blooded murder happened during a field training exercise. You can imagine the chaos that an officer was murdered. There were several suspects. During interrogations a "confession" was obtained from one of soldiers. One of the OTHER soldiers became an "eye witness" to the crime and testified at his trial.

To make this long, sad story short, because of the research I did, it became known to me that the "eye witness" was actually the one who committed the murder and the convicted soldier was completely innocent. I contacted the JAG officers that prosecuted the case with the information I found and the convicted soldier was set free. A new trial took place and the REAL murderer was convicted.

In order to obtain this false "confession", stories were created and lies were told by the investigators. So rather than a trial on the merits of the case, an innocent man was sent to prison. But for a person (me) who didn't think it made sense that the person who confessed was actually guilty, this innocent man would still be at Fort Leavenworth today.

I appreciate your time.

That certainly helps me understand your strong feelings. I am so sorry about your husband.

BBM Technically, you are right; legally a suspect is considered innocent.

But in reality and fact, a suspect is innocent, or guilty. And reality is all that matters to a missing child.

 

[Rayemonde]

ILOKAL I am so sorry for your loss, so sad. Thankfully, for the innocent person and your husband (may he rest in peace) you uncovered the truth.

I don't have a problem if the police lie to a suspect and say for instance "someone can place you there" or "the jig is up; we have your fingerprints" an innocent person will not confess if they know otherwise right? Today there has to be evidence to go along with a confession or even with an eye-witness pointing a finger IIRC there has to be some evidence backing up the accusation usually for charges to be laid. Trying a case is very expensive. In your case, it seems like there was manufacturing of evidence at trial which of course is wrong on every level.

The police nor the public have to assume anyone is innocent until a trial is over, only the judge & jury do. I can understand why you may feel otherwise though.

Just wanted to point out that innocent people confess to things all the time. But the police usually ask them to describe the crime scene or whatever, and if the suspect knows facts that have not been made public the police will know that the person probably *was* involved in some way.

EG if the police pressured an old man with dementia into confessing that he chopped someone up with an axe, but then they find the body and it turns out that the victim drowned and was not chopped up, then they would realise that it was a false confession. JMO.

 

[ILOKAL]

ILOKAL I am so sorry for your loss, so sad. Thankfully, for the innocent person and your husband (may he rest in peace) you uncovered the truth.

I don't have a problem if the police lie to a suspect and say for instance "someone can place you there" or "the jig is up; we have your fingerprints" an innocent person will not confess if they know otherwise right? Today there has to be evidence to go along with a confession or even with an eye-witness pointing a finger IIRC there has to be some evidence backing up the accusation usually for charges to be laid. Trying a case is very expensive. In your case, it seems like there was manufacturing of evidence at trial which of course is wrong on every level.

The police nor the public have to assume anyone is innocent until a trial is over, only the judge & jury do. I can understand why you may feel otherwise though.

Thank you, but just to be clear. No one "knew" it was a false confession even though he was lied to. There was no manufactured evidence at trial. The "eye-witness" (who was believed by investigators and the prosecutors) testified. Fortunately in the end, he was also convicted of perjury.

 

[ILOKAL]

That certainly helps me understand your strong feelings. I am so sorry about your husband.

BBM Technically, you are right; legally a suspect is considered innocent.

But in reality and fact, a suspect is innocent, or guilty. And reality is all that matters to a missing child.

Thank you.

We can't pick and choose how and when to apply The Constitution. We have a legal system in this county and EVERYONE is innocent until PROVEN guilty. There really are no exceptions and that's for your protection and mine. And just to be clear, we really aren't discussing technicalities. Hope you understand why.

 

[ILOKAL]

Just wanted to point out that innocent people confess to things all the time. But the police usually ask them to describe the crime scene or whatever, and if the suspect knows facts that have not been made public the police will know that the person probably *was* involved in some way.

EG if the police pressured an old man with dementia into confessing that he chopped someone up with an axe, but then they find the body and it turns out that the victim drowned and was not chopped up, then they would realise that it was a false confession. JMO.

Unfortunately, most false confessions are not that obvious and in reality it's not like on tv or in the movies.

 

[Rayemonde]

Lots of interesting reading about false confessions on the wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_confession

 

[Rayemonde]

I believe that it's the Reid Technique where you keep telling the suspect that you know he did it. It's resulted in many, many false confessions and wrongful convictions over the years.

Supporters argue the Reid technique is useful in extracting information from otherwise unwilling suspects, while critics have charged the technique can elicit false confessions from innocent persons, especially children. Indeed, Reid's breakthrough case resulted in an overturned conviction decades later...
In Canada, a Provincial Court judge ruled in 2012 that "stripped to its bare essentials, the Reid Technique is a guilt-presumptive, confrontational, psychologically manipulative procedure whose purpose is to extract a confession."[SUP][8][/SUP] John E. Reid and Associates maintains that "it’s not the technique that causes false or coerced confessions but police detectives who apply improper interrogation procedures."[SUP][8][/SUP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reid_technique

 

[neesaki]

Now that everyone wants to throw rotten tomatoes at me for my criticism of LE in this case.. i do want to ask a question. Many of you have followed far more missing children cases that i have. In how many have LE been this vague, this dismissive of every theory and this uncommunicative? If you can think of any, did you think LE was just being "careful"? Was the case ever solved? I would appreciate your input. I just want to add that IMO, LE, when we discuss this case, has been given more benefits of the doubt than the 4 POI have.

Anything i write is just my opinion.

Yes, that. LE doesn't believe it's an abduction, by human OR animal. Oh, they say they haven't entirely ruled it out, but it's very "remote". They also stated they've searched so thoroughly, that if Deorr had been up there they would have found him. So, that leaves us with no wandering away and lost in the woods scenario. No, I don't have a link right this instant, but I remember this. Does anyone else?

So what other options does that leave ? I can't think of anything else, other than that he believes that one or more of the POI's are responsible, and either Deorr was removed from that area, by them, or Deorr was never there, by them. That's it, that's what I have a problem with, he's stated he's all good with all the POI's, but yet he's indicating otherwise. JMO

 

[Suthrnqt]

Where's DeOrr???

 

[PainExpress]

Where's DeOrr???

He didn't just vanish. Someone knows something.

 

[wondering25]

Where's DeOrr???

i have been following the baby Doe.. Now baby Bella case, as i have some strong ties to Massachusetts. NO ONE would have ever fantasized that her mom and boyfriend would have murdered her and stuffed her body in a refrigerator and then dumped her body in the water. LE didnt have much to go on and begged the public for help.. erected over 80 billboards with her computer generated image all over Massachusetts and they finally got a tip last week.. the image was shared on SM something like 60 million times.

Allegedly, after the mom said her baby was dead and pointed a finger at the boyfriend she told someone.. even that someone "the bio dad' didnt report it. Finally she told someone else and that person told someone who called LE. My point is that massive publicity and what appears to be a real break in the case ( someone who was not afraid to call LE) helped bring in the perps. NO ONE reported this child missing even though some had strong suspicions something was off. Mom and boyfriend are both druggies.. IIRC nothing was ruled out by LE.

To answer your question:

IMO, Deorr never made it back from the trip to Leadore after going to the store. Someone knows and isnt talking. MOO

Anything i write is just my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Yes, that. LE doesn't believe it's an abduction, by human OR animal. Oh, they say they haven't entirely ruled it out, but it's very "remote". They also stated they've searched so thoroughly, that if Deorr had been up there they would have found him. So, that leaves us with no wandering away and lost in the woods scenario. No, I don't have a link right this instant, but I remember this. Does anyone else?

So what other options does that leave ? I can't think of anything else, other than that he believes that one or more of the POI's are responsible, and either Deorr was removed from that area, by them, or Deorr was never there, by them. That's it, that's what I have a problem with, he's stated he's all good with all the POI's, but yet he's indicating otherwise. JMO

I was just reading about this today. I'll post the article in entirety as it's a LE statement:

SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15

"Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved."

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

 

[minnermomma]

DeOrr Kunz at about minute 3.

https://youtu.be/cDKfBxNu6s8

Did you catch the #4, Rosemary Kunz that went missing in 2000 from Spirit Lake? Not sure where that is, or who she is but will just have to look into it for my own curiosity. Good video and thanks for finding it Mickshawn!

 

[neesaki]

I was just reading about this today. I'll post the article in entirety as it's a LE statement:

SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15

"Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved."

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

That's it, thanks much gliving.

 

[Dee10]

I was just reading about this today. I'll post the article in entirety as it's a LE statement:

SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15

I was just reading about this today. I'll post the article in entirety as it's a LE statement:

The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved."

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

Trimmed & BBM

This shows IMO that indeed a parallel investigation was starting it seems in the first few days of Deorr's disappearance & this is from the last interview with the Sheriff by Nate:

Transcript - Edited Version - 8-18-15: LEMHI SHERIFF OPENS UP ABOUT DEORR KUNZ CASE

Nate Eaton:
Bowerman says everyone at the campsite has had their cars and homes searched multiple times. Now, Bonneville County deputies and the FBI are working with Bowerman’s team to try and solve this case.”

Sheriff Bowerman:
“All four have taken…voluntarily taken polygraphs and right now that...those have been turned over to the FBI. We’ve given them lots of items to analyze…uh…behaviorally, and we’ve given them some physical evidence. I can’t go into those details but…we’re basically uh…trying to cover all of our bases.”

Nate Eaton:
3:52
“Where do you guys go from here?”

Sheriff Bowerman:
“Well, we wait until we get our report from the FBI. That’s going to be critical…and…uh…We’re still asking the public, uh, to help us if they have any information.”

Nate Eaton:
“The Sheriff says it will be six to eight weeks until they receive information back from the FBI. Meanwhile, they will continue to search for Deorr until he’s found. Reporting in Salmon, I’m Nate Eaton, East Idaho News.com.”

 

[theirmommy]

Did you catch the #4, Rosemary Kunz that went missing in 2000 from Spirit Lake? Not sure where that is, or who she is but will just have to look into it for my own curiosity. Good video and thanks for finding it Mickshawn!

I googled it. Rosemary was 70 when she went missing. Dogs eventually found hair belonging to her 1/2 mile south of the lake... http://www.nampn.org/cases/kunst_rosemary.html