ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #11

[kammiemc]

(modsnip)

But, man, my heart breaks for this other little boy.


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[kammiemc]

Unless he thought he had gone with his parents.

ETA: This is what was stated in the earlier stories according to GGP, but I'm a little confused about that now as the PI is now giving a different story. Just call me

Yeah, sorry, that's what I was trying to say! I am thinking that the story is closer to what the sheriff said GGP said--that he thought the toddler went with the parents. So why wouldn't he go into his camper? He didn't know he was supposed to be babysitting.
I think it is awful for someone who is positioning himself as an official of sorts on this investigation to announce publicly that GGP might have been neglectful and also selectively announce that GGP's axe and coveralls were seized. And I kind of can't believe the parents wouldn't shut him up unless they, too, want the public to believe that GGP should be up for neglect charges and possibly for doing something with an axe in his coveralls related to the toddler going missing. Are they thinking that he's an old man so it doesn't matter what people think about him? (But, meanwhile they can't take SM gossip about themselves?) This is just getting more and more upsetting.



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[Deleted member 718]

But the sheriff took his stand and dug in his heels and refused to assist in any remedy that would normally have been used when it is believed a child has been abducted. Then, Mr. Vilt paid DK a visit and FINALLY a possible abduction is being recognized.

Just my opinion.

SBM

My opinion is Bowerman pursued abduction as a very viable possibility.

BOISE -- The Lemhi County Sheriff's Office has called in some help from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC). The NCMEC has sent out one of their search and rescue specialists to help with the search for 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr.

snip

The specialist in DeOrr's case has been dispatched from Wyoming. So he's familiar with the type of environment the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office is searching. Lowery says the specialist is there to offer his expertise and make suggestions to help find DeOrr Kunz Jr.

ktvb.com July 16, 2015

 

[kammiemc]

SBM

My opinion is Bowerman pursued abduction as a very viable possibility.

BOISE -- The Lemhi County Sheriff's Office has called in some help from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC). The NCMEC has sent out one of their search and rescue specialists to help with the search for 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr.

snip

The specialist in DeOrr's case has been dispatched from Wyoming. So he's familiar with the type of environment the Lemhi County Sheriff's Office is searching. Lowery says the specialist is there to offer his expertise and make suggestions to help find DeOrr Kunz Jr.

ktvb.com July 16, 2015

It has occurred to me that the reason the sheriff was dismissing abduction as a real possibility is because the "other direction" he said the case took was specific in that it did not involve abduction. What I mean is that I don't think it was an oversight or a closed-minded stubbornness on his part. I think there was more precision in his decision, based on the behavioral and physical evidence he had. And that's why he called in the FBI, not as a double-check, but because he had enough reason to name four POI's and and turn this into a criminal investigation.
And that's why he don't care care about no stinking staring man driving an expensive-looking black Rube.


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[ILOKAL]

It has occurred to me that the reason the sheriff was dismissing abduction as a real possibility is because the "other direction" he said the case took was specific in that it did not involve abduction. What I mean is that I don't think it was an oversight or a closed-minded stubbornness on his part. I think there was more precision in his decision, based on the behavioral and physical evidence he had. And that's why he called in the FBI, not as a double-check, but because he had enough reason to name four POI's and and turn this into a criminal investigation.
And that's why he don't care care about no stinking staring man driving an expensive-looking black Rube.


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Although you may be right, as I recall, the sheriff dismissed the abduction theory from the very beginning. It may even have been as early as three days after little Deorr went missing. How do you account for that? It didn't seem as though this "new direction" was already in place, because if so, why wait another MONTH to call in the FBI to assist? That doesn't make sense. IMO

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

What is sleuthing a POI and what isn't? Things that I perceive as sleuthing that shouldn't be sleuthed are being sleuthed!

 

[Rayemonde]

http://590kid.com/2015/09/18/tips-about-missing-toddler-forwarded-to-idaho-fusion-center/

And he [Deorr Jr's father] also said Remember - when we were inside the store before we went back to the campground there was a man inside, he was mid fifties, white gray hair, he was staring obsessively at the little boy Deorr, Deorr Junior, and it made the mother and father feel very uncomfortable [because?] this guy was just looking at them. So I kind of put two and two together, and I understand today that Deorr and his wife - err his girl, she's not his wife - Jessica - Jessica met at [something] county with a sketch artist, he's supposed to do a sketch of the person they saw inside the store. And so hopefully we can put that together with the lady and her husband who saw the man up in the Palisides area, so that's how that came to be.

So Frank, I know when this story broke and we had this missing little boy - and I talked to so many people about this, I can't count the conversations that I had with people, and they all felt like something just is not - just isn't right about this, and as someone who's investigated these sort of cases - what does your gut tell you? I mean, you're working on behalf of the family and I understand that, but what is your gut telling you what happened to Deorr Kunz?

I believe that he actually was abducted because of the searches that took place, the specialised helicopter from the Montana National Guard with the special infared equipment, they put some spots out to the ground troops and the ground troops checked those out and they [something] it.

I put together a simulation - a reenactment - last week, or earlier this week, we put that together and I showed how a child could be abducted from the campground. And just because the searches - the cadaver dogs, the search dogs, the number of people who were up there searching - they would have overtaken the area that the little boy could have gotten to. He had cowboy boots that were too big for him, he liked those cowboy boots so he was clumsily - sometimes walking he would step out of them. It just didn't make sense that all the searches that took place couldn't find any parts of human remains, clothing - nothing. They checked dens, wolf dens, bear dens, eagles' nests, they checked all that - nothing came up.
And nobody knew who was in the campground when they came in on the Thursday night, because it was dark up there - and so very easily - there's an access road above the campground where someone could have been watching, there could have been this guy in the store in Leadore that was obsessed with this little boy and followed them and could have snatched him up. So there are a lot of things that are possibilities. And I know the Sheriff didn't put an Amber Alert out originally because it didn't fit the criteria originally because everybody was thinking the boy got lost in the campground, and when you don't find the boy in all the searches going on - that's why I kind of wanted to step in, kind of volunteered my time, because I wanted to get the word out to the general public.

So what's next, I mean what's the next big step here, and what are law enforcement angencies doing?

Well, right now law enforcement is doing the sketch of the man they first saw in Leodore, so that's gonna take place, and hopefully we can show this then to the lady and her husband and the four kids that were up in the Palisides area in Swan Lake - uh, Swan Valley - and so that will take place, and I've given some information to law enforcement, they followed up on it, and I'm impressed that law enforcement is doing their part. I don't think law enforcement has really made a big mistake in this, I think law enforcement want to recover this child, but [something] they're thinking he has to be lost, he wandered away from camp, but then that's not - the kind of inspiration - you have to think outside the box what else could have happened. So that's why I'm approaching this. I've gotten tips - I established the tip line - I've probably gotten over 100 tip calls, people giving me information, and I've checked that information and I know the Lemhi County Sheriff called the State Police Fusion Centre and that's fine, they should do that, but I had all these follow ups personally myself, I made calls to other locations, other law enforcement agencies, and I've gotten so many calls from people with black Rubicons that fit the description, and I've tried to put those together and tried to to come up with a scenario that might warrant further investigation based on the sightings.

 

[wondering25]

The PI has a background in LE. He has been enlisted to help this family in this most terrible loss. In fairness, everyone has been screaming that no one on the family side has been talking to MSM. Now, this gentleman has come out and is trying to bring forth an alternate ( and previously dismissed) theory and is getting Deorr's name back in the public consciousness. Do i think he has some nefarious motive here? No I do not. Is he right? Honestly, who knows? HOW CAN THIS HURT? At this point the parents seem to be behind him. a re-enactment was performed.. a sketch of the sinister man in the black Rubicon is going to be drawn.. and we will see where it takes us, right? Yes, some poor old man who drives a black Rubicon and is totally innocent may be swept into this.. what are the alternatives? Not following through? There may be some collateral damage to a a bystander .. in life there are no guarantees. 4 POI were named because they were there per LE.. maybe there is a 5th POI who was in the area. Many here were quick to want to put some blame on the 2 RSO in Leadore. Lots of sex offender and those who have NEVER OFFENDED can be suspects. Everyone has a first time..

In any event, the PI is trying..probably doing this free of charge, and has gotten our attention and that of the media. In addition, LE was there at the reenactment so he certainly has gotten their attention, also. With all the theories out there.. 1 is right.. the rest are wrong.
Ruling out everything is irresponsible IMO and LE kind of forced the parents' hand, don't you think? MOO

Just my opinion on all of this.

 

[sonjay]

The PI has a background in LE. He has been enlisted to help this family in this most terrible loss. In fairness, everyone has been screaming that no one on the family side has been talking to MSM. Now, this gentleman has come out and is trying to bring forth an alternate ( and previously dismissed) theory and is getting Deorr's name back in the public consciousness. Do i think he has some nefarious motive here? No I do not.

<snipped for focus>

I think that if your goal is to find the child, you don't immediately embark on a course of proving or disproving anyone's pet theory.

It appears that the PI immediately ruled out everything other than abduction, and he has set himself on a course of proving the abduction theory.

That's not how it works. You gather all the information and evidence and study it systematically, and you follow where the evidence takes you.

 

[SweetT]

Maybe it is just me but I really feel like the PI is circling the wagons, and new stuff is continuously being added to the original story. First there was a blue vehicle, black truck, now a black rubi. Details seem to keep being added. I can see why LE stated to call THEM with tips. If there truly was a black rubi that was questionable then it should have been included in the info from the start. Things are just not adding up to me and I feel the PI is just reaching for straws, slinging mud and trying to muddy up the whole thing. I used to be 100 percent behind the parents but this PI is making me wonder now.

 

[crh8]

I tried reading through the posts then i realized that I was behind by hundreds of them.
So where are we on this? What can be sleuthed at this point?
Who's cremains were dumped into the creek?
Where was this mystery man seen? (i think 3 different places) and by whom each time? Thank you for being patient with me.

 

[allmybecsloveme]

Only following this case for a few weeks and I hope they find this poor boy alive. I will say having a almost 26 month old myself I do not see she would ever wonder away at this age. I have a 21 year old as well, now she would wonder away in a store when she was 5. I just cannot grasp that a 2 year old in the middle of the woods at a campsite would wonder far from someone they knew. If I walk out of the room for a moment my daughter will scream. I am not accusing just baffled.

I have a 2.5 year old and she is an outgoing, wild little thing. She has a big personality and has never met a stranger in her life. If we took her camping I would have to have my eyes on her at all times. She would ABSOLUTELY wander off. Not every toddler is the same.

 

[jessie]

Thank you so much Rayemonde for your work on posting up the interview with F Vilt.

I find what he says quite worrying - "I believe he was abducted" ....then goes on to give his reasoning for this.
Later he speaks of the "simulation - re-enactment - SFB and I showed how a child could be abducted from the campground".
This does sound very narrow minded, focusing on the scenario he believes.

Is this what LE do, make a decision of what happened and fit the events to match?

Isn't it important, necessary, to assess the facts and evidence before deciding what happened?

Also I really hope he has passed on to LE all the tips his hotline has received.

Sorry I can't c/p on this tablet so hope I've posted correctly.

 

[kammiemc]

The PI has a background in LE. He has been enlisted to help this family in this most terrible loss. In fairness, everyone has been screaming that no one on the family side has been talking to MSM. Now, this gentleman has come out and is trying to bring forth an alternate ( and previously dismissed) theory and is getting Deorr's name back in the public consciousness. Do i think he has some nefarious motive here? No I do not. Is he right? Honestly, who knows? HOW CAN THIS HURT? At this point the parents seem to be behind him. a re-enactment was performed.. a sketch of the sinister man in the black Rubicon is going to be drawn.. and we will see where it takes us, right? Yes, some poor old man who drives a black Rubicon and is totally innocent may be swept into this.. what are the alternatives? Not following through? There may be some collateral damage to a a bystander .. in life there are no guarantees. 4 POI were named because they were there per LE.. maybe there is a 5th POI who was in the area. Many here were quick to want to put some blame on the 2 RSO in Leadore. Lots of sex offender and those who have NEVER OFFENDED can be suspects. Everyone has a first time..

In any event, the PI is trying..probably doing this free of charge, and has gotten our attention and that of the media. In addition, LE was there at the reenactment so he certainly has gotten their attention, also. With all the theories out there.. 1 is right.. the rest are wrong.
Ruling out everything is irresponsible IMO and LE kind of forced the parents' hand, don't you think? MOO

Just my opinion on all of this.

I agree that it is nice to see media outreach by anyone, including the PI. And because the people who enlisted his help to find an abductor, that's what he is doing. I don't think there is necessarily any validity in the staring man being tied to this case, but I understand why he would go that direction. But it's hard to ignore that he is working with an agenda. And, I have to say, I am actually mad about how he is throwing GGP under the camper. I understand why he might be trying to plant reasonable doubt for his clients should a case go to trial. But it just seems so cruel.

 

[ILOKAL]

The PI has a background in LE. He has been enlisted to help this family in this most terrible loss. In fairness, everyone has been screaming that no one on the family side has been talking to MSM. Now, this gentleman has come out and is trying to bring forth an alternate ( and previously dismissed) theory and is getting Deorr's name back in the public consciousness. Do i think he has some nefarious motive here? No I do not. Is he right? Honestly, who knows? HOW CAN THIS HURT? At this point the parents seem to be behind him. a re-enactment was performed.. a sketch of the sinister man in the black Rubicon is going to be drawn.. and we will see where it takes us, right? Yes, some poor old man who drives a black Rubicon and is totally innocent may be swept into this.. what are the alternatives? Not following through? There may be some collateral damage to a a bystander .. in life there are no guarantees. 4 POI were named because they were there per LE.. maybe there is a 5th POI who was in the area. Many here were quick to want to put some blame on the 2 RSO in Leadore. Lots of sex offender and those who have NEVER OFFENDED can be suspects. Everyone has a first time..

In any event, the PI is trying..probably doing this free of charge, and has gotten our attention and that of the media. In addition, LE was there at the reenactment so he certainly has gotten their attention, also. With all the theories out there.. 1 is right.. the rest are wrong.
Ruling out everything is irresponsible IMO and LE kind of forced the parents' hand, don't you think? MOO

Just my opinion on all of this.

I think you're spot on Wondering25. My thoughts exactly as I also posted more briefly. I also don't believe the PI is working on ONLY an abduction by stranger theory. He KNOWS how investigations work and I doubt he's not doing a unilateral investigation in other areas, without showing his hand. To add to your point that LE attended the Re-enactment, LE is also doing the sketch of the leering man.

 

[jessie]

<snipped for focus>

I think that if your goal is to find the child, you don't immediately embark on a course of proving or disproving anyone's pet theory.

It appears that the PI immediately ruled out everything other than abduction, and he has set himself on a course of proving the abduction theory.

That's not how it works. You gather all the information and evidence and study it systematically, and you follow where the evidence takes you.

Sorry sonjay, you'd already said what I was trying to say. I'm so slow on this tablet thingy, and you put it so much better than I.

 

[wondering25]

<snipped for focus>

I think that if your goal is to find the child, you don't immediately embark on a course of proving or disproving anyone's pet theory.

It appears that the PI immediately ruled out everything other than abduction, and he has set himself on a course of proving the abduction theory.

That's not how it works. You gather all the information and evidence and study it systematically, and you follow where the evidence takes you.

Isnt that what LE did? The sheriff seems to have ruled out everything, imo. Not an abduction, family is solid, creek and reservoir has no body in it, no evidence of a wild animal taking the baby. So, What remains? Absolutely nothing.. the camp area has not produced a single clue that we know about. Back to abduction.. no signs of the baby anywhere within 2.5 miles of a search area..either. LE has to either say the baby was never there ( which he has said 99%) sure he was.. or the baby was abducted (since area was cleared and family and IR are not suspects).

This would appear to rule out that the parents had anything to do with the baby being missing. i have no idea what is going on here. I am just defending the PI. Surely, if he KNEW the parents, or other POI were involved he wouldn't be wasting his time. He isn't a defense lawyer being paid grandly for his services.

Let the PI do his thing. Unless and until some FBI report results in an arrest, at least the family may feel they are doing something that could possibly be productive. JMO Something fruitful, even if it just increased public awareness may come of this.

Just my opinion on all of the above.

 

[jessie]

Please bear with me this isn't anything I know about. I've been reading up about cougars as they've been mentioned in the thread.

As I understand cougars don't have dens, but make beds as they move about. Also that they bury what is left of their kill.

The info I read stresses that children must always be with adults or a group, as from a cougars vision children having high voices and sudden movements are attractive as prey. The fact that cougars can leap up to 30 ft from standing, and their methods are silent and they are rarely seen, does make me wonder what are the chances little Deorr has fallen foul this way?

Is it totally out of the question?

 

[kammiemc]

Sorry sonjay, you'd already said what I was trying to say. I'm so slow on this tablet thingy, and you put it so much better than I.

I totes agree with you guys. That PI has an agenda. I'm not saying that the parents don't need someone to help them who is working with an agenda (I think it is helpful to them) but it's pretty obvious. I don't even get the feeling he is trying to hide it because he is pretty open about what he is trying to prove. I can see why LE would be highly annoyed by him.

 

[kammiemc]

Please bear with me this isn't anything I know about. I've been reading up about cougars as they've been mentioned in the thread.

As I understand cougars don't have dens, but make beds as they move about. Also that they bury what is left of their kill.

The info I read stresses that children must always be with adults or a group, as from a cougars vision children having high voices and sudden movements are attractive as prey. The fact that cougars can leap up to 30 ft from standing, and their methods are silent and they are rarely seen, does make me wonder what are the chances little Deorr has fallen foul this way?

Is it totally out of the question?

I don't think it's out of the question. Anything could be true at this point. It's up there for me in the few possibilities I can even imagine of what happened, based on what little we know. IMO.