ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

[pepelepolecat]

Can one of the persons knowledgeable about mountain lions comment on this.

Sheriff Bowerman:
"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him,"

Would a mountain lion normally remain in that 3 mile radius? How large of an area does a mountain lion normally hunt in?
TIA.

A domestic cat (like a house cat or a feral cat) can have a territory of up to nine miles or more. I can't imagine a mountain lion would have a smaller territory. If anything, I'd think it'd be much, much larger.

 

[bessie]

TeaTime, We dont know WHAT GGP and IR have said. We have never heard one word from GGP's mouth. If they saw Deorr in the morning but didnt see Deorr when the family returned from the store because IR was fishing for example and GGP was in the camper..or is a poor historian and doesnt know what he saw or when..

(rsbm)


We do know what ggp said, at least some of it, and it sounds to me as though the sheriff has faith in ggp's word. In fact, his non-abduction theory is based, in part, on ggp's account.

“Ya’ know, personally, I think an abduction is one of the least likely events. Primarily, the information we have is…grandpa is watching the child. He tells me he looks away momentarily. When he looks back, he’s gone, and he’s assumed he’s gone over the bank. Right where grandpa is sitting, he’s within 20-30 yards of the only roadway into the campground, and absolutely no one was seen at that lower campground coming or going...

 

[pepelepolecat]

Well, that's very interesting to learn, Cougars take their prey up into the trees? I had been going on the assumption that they buried them with leaves, twigs, dirt, whatever was at hand.
My question has been, how far will they carry the prey, if there are, such as in this situation, people in the area that they consider a threat. Would they take them farther outside the normal range? That said, I personally question whether LE has given enough credence to the wildlife predator scenario, UNLESS, they have evidence of something else that they still have not disclosed. Which is quite possible, IMO. And thanks, CanManEh for this information.

Leopards take their prey into trees. Mountain lions eat on the ground and bury their kill, as other posters have previously mentioned. They do not drag deer or anything else into trees. https://outdoornebraska.ne.gov/wild...dfs/Mountain Lions in Nebraska PowerPoint.pdf

 

[wondering25]

It sounds to me as though the sheriff has faith in ggp's word. In fact, his non-abduction theory is based, in part, on ggp's account.

“Ya’ know, personally, I think an abduction is one of the least likely events. Primarily, the information we have is…grandpa is watching the child. He tells me he looks away momentarily. When he looks back, he’s gone, and he’s assumed he’s gone over the bank. Right where grandpa is sitting, he’s within 20-30 yards of the only roadway into the campground, and absolutely no one was seen at that lower campground coming or going...

I would take that as gospel except the remark Bowerman also made about GGP's declining physical and mental health. I am questioning how reliable GGP is . Not that he is lying.. but that he might be suggestible, forgetful, not a good historian, something along those lines. For whatever it is worth, they had GGP going into the trailer during the re-enactment..it is confusing to say the least. JMO

Anything i write is just my opinion.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

How steep are both sides of the bank that GGP assumed baby D went over (if he even could have gone over it with those huge boots)?

 

[kammiemc]

[SUB][/SUB]

Yeah, sorry, I meant the question of whether DeOrr was actually ever at the shop/ store or not. Why would Bowerman tell the press that he couldn't confirm that DeOrr was ever at the store, unless he wanted the public to doubt the parents' version of events? Does he think that casting doubt on the parents will pressure them into telling the truth? I can't think of why else he would tell the press that he can't confirm DeOrr was ever at the store with his parents.

Maybe a reporter asked him specifically if the toddler was with the parents at the store. It sounded like he was answering that question. I guess he could have said "no comment" but that would raise even more suspicions. Maybe now that the FBI has done their analysis he feels like he can be more open.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bessie]

I would take that as gospel except the remark Bowerman also made about GGP's declining physical and mental health. I am questioning how reliable GGP is . Not that he is lying.. but that he might be suggestible, forgetful, not a good historian, something along those lines. For whatever it is worth, they had GGP going into the trailer during the re-enactment..it is confusing to say the least. JMO

Anything i write is just my opinion.

I've never met ggp, so I can't say whether or not his word is reliable. I do think it's worth noting that Sheriff Bowerman -- who has not only met ggp, but has interviewed him -- finds him to be a credible witness.

As for the trailer, I thought everyone understood that was not a part of the reeactment, but an incident referred to by the PI, which occurred the day of the reeactment. We discussed it at length awhile back.

 

[bessie]

[SUB][/SUB]

Yeah, sorry, I meant the question of whether DeOrr was actually ever at the shop/ store or not. Why would Bowerman tell the press that he couldn't confirm that DeOrr was ever at the store, unless he wanted the public to doubt the parents' version of events? Does he think that casting doubt on the parents will pressure them into telling the truth? I can't think of why else he would tell the press that he can't confirm DeOrr was ever at the store with his parents.

Maybe the answer is as simple as, he told the truth.

Now, what I'd like to know is how extensively have they searched the creek? And do they plan to search it again? Somehow, the water seems to be overlooked. If not in reality by the LE officials, certainly in these discussions. I've learned more about mountain lions than in all my years of watching the "Big Cat Diaries". But what about the water?

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I've never met ggp, so I can't say whether or not his word is reliable. I do think it's worth noting that Sheriff Bowerman -- who has not only met ggp, but has interviewed him -- finds him to be a credible witness.

As for the trailer, I thought everyone understood that was not a part of the reeactment, but an incident referred to by the PI which occurred the day of the reeactment. We discussed it at length awhile back.

I'm a bit confused bessie about GGP stepping into the trailer. PI Vilt states on his KID590 radio interview that he felt GGP was possibly neglectful after stepping into the trailer for a brief moment allowing someone to take Deorr. Just his personal theory but still pretty damning.

I don't remember the discussion about that being a separate incident at Timber Creek on the day of the reenactment?

http://590kid.com/2015/09/18/tips-about-missing-toddler-forwarded-to-idaho-fusion-center/ Part 3 @2:22

 

[bessie]

I'm a bit confused bessie about GGP stepping into the trailer. PI Vilt states on his KID590 radio interview that he felt GGP was possibly neglectful after stepping into the trailer for a brief moment allowing someone to take Deorr. Just his personal theory but still pretty damning.

I don't remember the discussion about that being a separate incident at Timber Creek on the day of the reenactment?

http://590kid.com/2015/09/18/tips-about-missing-toddler-forwarded-to-idaho-fusion-center/ Part 3 @2:22

I'll try to find it later. It was a thread or two back. The point was that he speculated ggp might have stepped into the trailer. But we have the sheriff saying ggp was watching the whole time except when he "looked away momentarily".

 

[scmom]

Bowerman: does not think Deorr was abducted, can't confirm Deorr was at the store, is 99% sure Deorr was at the campground.
Is that about the size of it?

 

[ILOKAL]

Well, that's very interesting to learn, Cougars take their prey up into the trees? I had been going on the assumption that they buried them with leaves, twigs, dirt, whatever was at hand.
My question has been, how far will they carry the prey, if there are, such as in this situation, people in the area that they consider a threat. Would they take them farther outside the normal range? That said, I personally question whether LE has given enough credence to the wildlife predator scenario, UNLESS, they have evidence of something else that they still have not disclosed. Which is quite possible, IMO. And thanks, CanManEh for this information.

According to several online sources, it's merely a wives tale that mountain lions carry their prey into trees. There may be other sources that say they do. I'm traveling and don't have time to further research it today. Maybe others will. I would hate to build a scenario on the wrong information. What I DID learn was those infrared devices couldn't detect Deorr if he had been attacked by a mountain lion :-( so I'm not sure why the sheriff doesn't seem to have considered that.

 

[giagreen]

Maybe the answer is as simple as, he told the truth.

Now, what I'd like to know is how extensively have they searched the creek? And do they plan to search it again? Somehow, the water seems to be overlooked. If not in reality by the LE officials, certainly in these discussions. I've learned more about mountain lions than in all my years of watching the "Big Cat Diaries". But what about the water?

You bring up a good point. Water is so powerful. Depending on how fast it ran you'd think it wouldn't take much for it to sweep little DeOrr down a ways. There is a number of reasons from there they missed him or won't ever find him.
I think its been easy for me to over look because they searched it. From the sounds of it they searched it really good. But they are human. Things do get missed. I hope they do search it again.

 

[giagreen]

According to several online sources, it's merely a wives tale that mountain lions carry their prey into trees. There may be other sources that say they do. I'm traveling and don't have time to further research it today. Maybe others will. I would hate to build a scenario on the wrong information. What I DID learn was those infrared devices couldn't detect Deorr if he had been attacked by a mountain lion :-( so I'm not sure why the sheriff doesn't seem to have considered that.

Your right. I can't find anything to support they do bring their prey into trees.
I see videos of them in trees and they use trees to help hunt but nothing says they eat up there. Sadly if DeOrr was attacked by a mountain lion I don't think there would ever be much to prove it. I think we would have what we do now and that's a big huge mystery.

 

[bessie]

You bring up a good point. Water is so powerful. Depending on how fast it ran you'd think it wouldn't take much for it to sweep little DeOrr down a ways. There is a number of reasons from there they missed him or won't ever find him.
I think its been easy for me to over look because they searched it. From the sounds of it they searched it really good. But they are human. Things do get missed. I hope they do search it again.

I have to refer to the Terrilynn Monette case again because it taught me a big lesson. I had so much faith in the high tech sonar searches that I was certain she was not in that bayou. No way, no how. And yet she was, indeed, in the bayou. Not only her body, but an entire car was missed. So surely, a tiny little boy's body could go undetected, especially if it were trapped under a rock or debris.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I'll try to find it later. It was a thread or two back. The point was that he speculated ggp might have stepped into the trailer. But we have the sheriff saying ggp was watching the whole time except when he "looked away momentarily".

Don't worry about finding it bessie! I guess it is all moot now because I think PI Vilt is off the case with him being MIA for 23 days and the documentary crew taking over.

PI Vilt probably felt the only way he could say an abduction could have happened was if GGP step into the trailer. That probably didn't go down too well.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Maybe the answer is as simple as, he told the truth.

Now, what I'd like to know is how extensively have they searched the creek? And do they plan to search it again? Somehow, the water seems to be overlooked. If not in reality by the LE officials, certainly in these discussions. I've learned more about mountain lions than in all my years of watching the "Big Cat Diaries". But what about the water?

The reservoir also concerns me, maybe more so than the creek. I remember quite early in the conversation someone saying that the reservoir was extremely silty. Would they have found him if he'd sunk into the silt at the bottom of the reservoir? I just have my doubts.

 

[haven71]

Many mention that the PI, Frank Vilt, has seemingly faded into obscurity.

I think maybe many of us are kind of expecting him to be the "spokesperson" for the family, simply because he's done a couple interviews. But the nature of a PI is to go undercover. Behind the scenes, quietly checking out leads. AFAIK anyway.

Still though...if an abduction where are the flyers and why hasn't a match been lit under the media? The only way I can understand that is if there is a suspected abductor he's tracking, because an unknown abductor would certainly warrant a zillion flyers (fliers?) and media outcry.

 

[scmom]

I thought that normally a body in water would float to the top in a short amount of time unless it were weighted down. Maybe in the creek a small body could get caught in debris or a hole but I can't understand how, if he were in the reservoir, his body wouldn't have surfaced within a week or so.

 

[Rayemonde]

http://www.postregister.com/article...missing-toddler-search-met-national-standards

Paywall article - basically Bowerman says attending a training conference confirmed to him that he did everything right in his search. And the FBI analysis hasn't told him anything he didn't already know.He's going to reinterview everyone to make sure he didn't miss anything. And he says it's surprising how many cases there are like this across the country.