ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

[Eloise]

Everybody pay attention to the fact it was a firefighter search group on foot who found the boys. Not the Bloodhounds .

It has always been my opinion that dogs are next to useless in these cases . A lot of people disagree with me (fine) but every time I try to compile a list of missing people found by dogs it amounts to almost nothing

Dogs trained to find contraband drugs are excellent . Trained cadaver dogs are excellent . Dogs chasing fleeing criminals are excellent . Coon-Hunting dogs are excellent. Duck & Goose Hunting retrieval dogs are excellent. But when it comes to tracking one or two people in a place where there are a lot of other people it does not work well

I am not finding fault with the dogs , I am finding fault with people who put too much emphasis on what the dogs do (or dont do)

actually drug detection dogs don't have great results either. Not when valuated independently.

Dogs have a place and a role to play in LE but they are over-used and over-trusted. I think they're useless in missing persons cases.

 

[desert-blue]

Apparently a news update aired on the 10:00 news in Idaho Falls tonight but the clip hasn't been uploaded yet...

https://www.facebook.com/LocalNews8/posts/10153698827138872

 

[desert-blue]

Here is the link to the story:
http://www.localnews8.com/news/3-months-still-no-sign-of-missing-toddler/35762562

It sounds to me like the filthy, bawling toddler sighting at the store in Leadore either didn't happen (or wasn't Deorr).

From the article:
'A receipt and cashier proves the parents trip to the only convenience store in town, but was the toddler with his mother and father?

"Somebody said they thought they saw a child in the vehicle while they fueled up, but they're not positive," Bowerman said.

The family went back to camp and a few hours later the mother called 911 saying her son was missing.'

 

[bessie]

Everybody pay attention to the fact it was a firefighter search group on foot who found the boys. Not the Bloodhounds .

It has always been my opinion that dogs are next to useless in these cases . A lot of people disagree with me (fine) but every time I try to compile a list of missing people found by dogs it amounts to almost nothing

Dogs trained to find contraband drugs are excellent . Trained cadaver dogs are excellent . Dogs chasing fleeing criminals are excellent . Coon-Hunting dogs are excellent. Duck & Goose Hunting retrieval dogs are excellent. But when it comes to tracking one or two people in a place where there are a lot of other people it does not work well

I am not finding fault with the dogs , I am finding fault with people who put too much emphasis on what the dogs do (or dont do)

Here's a short list I came up with after a quick google search.

August 2001 - Westmoreland County, PA

Officer, K-9 solve missing woman mystery
Xato cost $3,500, and his training cost an equal amount. Considering equipment and other expenses, a police force spends about $12,500 to put a K-9 officer and dog on patrol.

Along with drug sniffing and other duties, Xato was specially trained to find missing people.
When Yonek and Xato arrived at the missing woman's home, Yonek gave the dog a pair of the missing woman's socks to sniff, and then attached the dog's work collar.

'It's amazing. I get that collar out and it's like a lightbulb goes off in his head and he goes to work,' Yonek said.
The officer then attached the dog's 15-foot tracking leash, gave a command for tracking and searching, and Xato took off - sniffing asphalt and grass as he went.

It took less than five minutes for the dog to find the woman at a construction site on a dirt road, not far from her home.

'She was standing there, disoriented,' Yonek said. 'I started talking to her, saying 'You're all right,' just talking softly, and she started to catch on.'
http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_51411.html#axzz3o8ahSfTD

February 2013 - Macomb County, MI

Deputy’s Tracking Dog Finds Missing Woman with Alzheimer’s
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2013/02/deputys-tracking-dog-finds-missing-woman-with-alzheimers/

August 2013 - Polk County, IA

The missing Ankeny woman, Louise G was found Thursday night with the assistance of a tracking dog.
http://whotv.com/2013/08/08/missing-person-ankeny-police-seek-woman-2/

March 2014 - Anderson County, SC

More than 30 people were called in to search for the teen and a bloodhound named Dixie was able to find the girl about a hour later.
http://www.cleveland19.com/story/24800342/tracking-dog-praised-for-finding-missing-teen

July 2014 - Portland, ME

Ruth Brennan, 77, who has dementia, is reunited with relatives after a rescue dog finds her in dense woods in Waterford.
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/07/09/missing-south-portland-woman-found-alive-after-two-day-search/

November 2014 - Tawas, MI

Missing Tawas City girl, 2, found in woods by dog
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2014/11/06/missing-girl-tawas-michigan/18584645/

May 2015 - Apex, NC

K9 call of duty: NC police dog saves missing woman first week on the job
http://myfox8.com/2015/05/24/k9-cal...og-saves-missing-woman-first-week-on-the-job/

August 2015 - Cass County, MI

Missing woman found by police dog
http://www.heraldpalladium.com/news...cle_3a0536f3-c1bd-54aa-bd57-d303bcfefc0c.html

Sept 2015 - Chester County, NC

After Mayfield found her clothes, tracking dogs used their scent to find Lindsey's body behind a neighbor's shed about three hours later.
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/deputies-investigating-chester-co-womans-suspiciou/nnd7d/

 

[bessie]

Here is the link to the story:
http://www.localnews8.com/news/3-months-still-no-sign-of-missing-toddler/35762562

It sounds to me like the filthy, bawling toddler sighting at the store in Leadore either didn't happen (or wasn't Deorr).

From the article:
'A receipt and cashier proves the parents trip to the only convenience store in town, but was the toddler with his mother and father?

"Somebody said they thought they saw a child in the vehicle while they fueled up, but they're not positive," Bowerman said.

The family went back to camp and a few hours later the mother called 911 saying her son was missing.'

How does a statement from a person whose recollection is sketchy prove DeOrr was not at the store?

 

[desert-blue]

How does a statement from a person whose recollection is sketchy prove DeOrr was not at the store?

I don't think it does. But it doesn't prove that he was at the store either. It doesn't sound like the cashier saw Deorr. At least that's what I'm getting from reading the article and watching the news clip. Maybe I'm confused.

 

[Deleted member 718]

Here is the link to the story:
http://www.localnews8.com/news/3-months-still-no-sign-of-missing-toddler/35762562

It sounds to me like the filthy, bawling toddler sighting at the store in Leadore either didn't happen (or wasn't Deorr).

From the article:
'A receipt and cashier proves the parents trip to the only convenience store in town, but was the toddler with his mother and father?

"Somebody said they thought they saw a child in the vehicle while they fueled up, but they're not positive," Bowerman said.

The family went back to camp and a few hours later the mother called 911 saying her son was missing.'

Thanks for the new link desert-blue, especially the video. It's the first time I've seen Sheriff Bowerman speaking candidly about the missing facts. It really sounds like he can't positively place the Deorr Jr. at the Leadore store or the camp ground. This is most concerning.

"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him," said Bowerman."

 

[bessie]

This board is so quiet in the evenings.

I guess I'm going to think out loud here because at the moment I don't have any new insight to share.

From the get go, my mind told me "He was never at the campsite." There was no evidence to back this up, but I remember it popping into my head strongly. Which really means nothing, because a hunch is just a hunch. But it is possible. Dogs didn't pick up his scent (except the cadaver dogs did lead to the reservoir, but unfortunately the dumped cremains ruined that the credibility of that). We don't know (or I don't lol) if the dogs started at the campground which had Deorr's scent (in the air, or on the ground), or if the dogs were simply placed there at base camp before being released (or long-leashed, I suppose) by their handlers. So, there may have been no scent at all. That, or they were given an item such as a blanket retrieved from the truck to sniff first. I don't know of any evidence that placed him definitively or physically to the campsite, unless I missed something. Actually now that I think about it, there was the dirty diaper but it was discarded off-site somewhere? Call me a skeptic but that sounds a bit convenient to me. A family member drove away from the campsite to dispose of it? Wasn't it discarded after Deorr went missing? How about searching for baby Deorr instead of leaving the area to dispose of a stinky diaper? I hope I'm not just remembering a rumor, if so I guess the mods will delete. I know it was mentioned here though.

The fact that LE didn't find out until "during the investigation" that the parents actually arrived Thursday night...well, what's up with that? Why was that withheld? It is NOT irrelevant. Because if they truly were thinking he was abducted, wouldn't they question whether the abductor could've been lurking around the area the night before the disappearance??? It strikes me as very odd. That pretty much should've been the "opening statement" of the investigation!!! IMO.

This is so dang frustrating!

The comment about the diaper was made on FB by someone posting under DeOrr's grandmother's name. It probably was the grandmother, but since it was FB, we can't be sure. In any case, the post referred to a trash bag used by church members who were searching at the camprgounds. The poster said she deposited the diaper in the trash bag, and the information was provided to LE. No one drove anywhere to throw away a diaper.

As for the parents arriving Thursday night, we don't know when LE obtained that information. An error in the initial MSM reports which said Friday night is a definite possibility. It's also not out of the question that LE initially provided incorrect information to the media. (BTW, the same FB poster who posted about the diaper said the family arrived on Thursday night at 9:30 P.M.)

Can anyone provide a quote from the parents which says they arrived on Friday, and not Thursday?

 

[bessie]

Thanks for the new link desert-blue, especially the video. It's the first time I've seen Sheriff Bowerman speaking candidly about the missing facts. It really sounds like he can't positively place the Deorr Jr. at the Leadore store or the camp ground. This is most concerning.

"Then later that evening we had a helicopter up with a FLIR, which is a heat seeking source. They identified every animal that was in the region and if that child was in the that 3-mile radius, we would have found him," said Bowerman."

I recall similar statements from LE and TES when multiple sonar searches failed to locate Terrilynn Monette's car in a New Orleans bayou. It took a diver using a portable sonar device to hit on the car.

"EquuSearch said they have the ability to look through up to 1000 feet of water - much like they did in the Natalee Holloway case in Aruba. According to Tim Miller, founder of Texas EquuSearch, the company has looked through a number of bodies of water in City Park and they have ruled out the possibility of a vehicle being in those waters."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/terrily...r-in-new-orleans-expands-to-ponds-and-bayous/

"But her mind then turned to how much time had passed between her daughter's disappearance and her apparent discovery on Saturday by an off-duty policeman from Slidell. It also remains a mystery why Monette's car was overlooked during repeated searches of the bayou."

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2013/06/search_for_terrilynn_monette_m.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

[SeriouslySearching]

How does a statement from a person whose recollection is sketchy prove DeOrr was not at the store?

If the Sheriff had other information such as from the cashier after being asked directly, he would have said it. He wasn't hedging on the information. He didn't have it. The best he had was the person who "thought" they saw a child in the vehicle. He would have no reason to even bring that up if the cashier or someone else definitely saw him inside the store. Of course, all of that is only my opinion.

 

[Rayemonde]

So what about the "filthy, bawling" Deorr? Was that found not to be him? Or did that never happen?

 

[bessie]

If the Sheriff had other information such as from the cashier after being asked directly, he would have said it. He wasn't hedging on the information. He didn't have it. The best he had was the person who "thought" they saw a child in the vehicle. He would have no reason to even bring that up if the cashier or someone else definitely saw him inside the store. Of course, all of that is only my opinion.

Likewise, as far as we know, he has no statement saying DeOrr was NOT with his parents at the store.

 

[KYPastTracker]

Now I am really confused! Does that also mean no one saw them buy French fries for Deorr Jr at the store? Wouldn't the clerk remember them? Especially if a creepy old man was staring at him in the store? Or did the creep in the jeep stare outside the store? Or was that at a different store? But if so, why didn't the sheriff mention that? Why is LE doing a sketch then? I am so confused! What am I missing? I just woke up so maybe I'm not thinking clearly. Yeah..... That must be it! Maybe I'm dreaming! LOL!

 

[KYPastTracker]

:gaahoes this mean the FBI report is back and came up with nothing?
Why reinterview? I thought the family had been interviewed by the FBI already.
1. Ask new questions?
2. More in depth questions?
3. See if story remains the same?
4. ???

mind boggling...mind numbing....back to square one....this is crazy.

 

[SubtleGrace]

If they are back to square one, meaning the folks at the campsite, then perhaps that is where the FBI report is leading them?

 

[KYPastTracker]

Sounds like it to me. Sounds like no one has a clue including the FBI....unless we are wrong and the FBI report isn't back. But IMO indications are that it is back. And sheriff still reiterates he doesn't think it was an abduction. IMO, JMO, then, neither does the FBI.

 

[KYPastTracker]

I never saw where there was a report of blood on the overalls and axe. If there was, I would agree it was obviously not the toddler's. I have no idea why they were taken but if they were, that sounds like a plausible reason. Perhaps GGPA cut himself while chopping wood? Kind of a moot point since we don't even know the reason they were taken or even if they really were taken since that came from the PI and not LE.

 

[Rayemonde]

Rayemonde
Thank you for posting! Your post will not be visible until a moderator has approved it for posting.

What?? Am I in trouble? :s

Eta wait, this one posted? Was that just a glitch?

 

[KYPastTracker]

I don't know. Maybe a glitch? I didn't see any post from you that may have gotten you in trouble.

 

[desert-blue]

I am left wondering how the creepy man could have been staring at little Deorr if he (Deorr) wasn't in the store?

Also, did great-grandpa not see Deorr after the trip to Leadore? Is that perhaps why we have heard nothing from him?