ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[Deleted member 102539]

The sheriff said in a recent interview that he hasn't given up hope that DeOrr is alive, though... Klein has said DeOrr is dead but LE haven't.

Hhmmm :thinking:

What penalty had the parents to expect IF they had given little Deorr to another person (if this person is NOT belonging to a pedo ring or something)? Would they risk to be classified as murderers/abusers rather than as cruel parents?

 

[Donjeta]

Without other clues in the interview, I would agree. I only transcribed the portions that jumped out at me, particularly relating to what he wasn't saying.
Another part of the interview-

Interviewer: Did you lose any friends over this?
Isaac: I'm sure I have, but right at this point, I'm not sure who. Something I'm gonna have to figure out down the road.

This, to me, indicates that while people have may have changed their behavior towards him, he isn't confident with which relationships he's lost over it. When he says that people can change in the blink of an eye, that could be referring to the public's (or even friends') attitudes towards him, but I'm having trouble fitting "until it's too late," into that scenario.

Few people talk about what's going on in "the public" if they mean their friends. JMO.

People can start hating you via SM and you knew nothing about it until it's too late. You talk to someone, and then they realize who you are and suddenly start being snide and it takes you by surprise. Something like that?

 

[Trident]

Btw: Does somebody know WHY RW wasn't identified by his name when the drama unfolded?

THAT is another very good question in this case of shifting facts.

 

[Trident]

Well, I'll be. Skeptimistic (used by IR) is actually a word recognized by wikionary and your dictionary and others. Sorry, I'm hopeless at providing links from my iPad but just google the word. It means being skeptical and optimistic at the same time. No way of knowing if if IR knew this or if he just got the word jumbled up.

I'm reasonably certain he knew the meaning of skeptimistic. IR is a lot smarter than many people believe, IMO.

 

[Rayemonde]

Ggp wasn't identified by name for a while either. Iirc, IR was only named by LE after the MSM had found out his name and dug up his arrest record.

I don't know why they weren't named... Is it usual for LE to release the names of everyone who was there in a missing child case?

 

[Tr.]

Yeah, let me see... The original article's not working any more, but luckily someone copied and pasted the quote into an earlier thread (please always copy the full 10% we are allowed into threads, because the news articles quickly disappear and important information can be lost).
The quote was From Vernal's father, DeOrr's grandfather:



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015-1/page52

Sure, the bruises and marks on DeOrr in the pictures may be accidental, or they may not. It does seem suspicious that he has bruises that look like a hand mark, for instance. Maybe he fell into a railing or something, or maybe someone hit him. There's no way of knowing.

BTW, I happened across another case where the parents posted photos of their child with bruises on facebook. Alexis Long, murdered by her mother Jennifer Long. The Facebook photos were shown in court as evidence of past abuse after Alexis was murdered.



http://www.myajc.com/news/news/a-dangerous-life-mysterious-death-highlight-child/nbRRT/




Read more here: http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/news/local/crime/article48611070.html#storylink=cpy

Great research.
Pictures can absolutely be considered as evidence.
This will fall on some deaf ears but pics of bruises or what appear to be bruises can be presented, considered, refuted, argued, denied, thrown-out as, and also accepted as evidence of abuse.

Pictures are used everyday in court cases of all kinds including custody battles, emergency custody hearings, abuse allegations...etc.
CPS workers take pictures as ..guess what..evidence whenever they deem necessary. This includes pics of any marks that they may notice on a child's behind or back or face or anything that causes concern. They then present their evidence and findings within a case file to a judge.

Parents can submit photos of bruises on their children, in an emergency custody hearing, to convince a judge to order a temporary change of custody and an evaluation of the other parents ability to care for the child. This happens every day.

Here is a reference from The U.S. Dept. of Justice explaining the process of documenting abuse and the very important use of pictures as evidence.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/160939.pdf

 

[Tr.]

It sounds to me like GGP knew that DeOrr was injured, then died. In trying to lend support to VDK's accounts (with VDK placing emphasis on really odd, seemingly unimportant points), GGP actually contradicts VDK. I think VDK was trying to get the idea out there that DeOrr was FAST. Like, look away and he'd be GONE. But, GGP, knowing that DeOrr was injured, (maybe on the way to the campground, just before, or just after arriving) tries to offer up an excuse for how he could have gotten hurt with the "falling all the time" and the "too big boots" comments. Because surely GGP thought, with all the searchers there, that they would likely find DeOrr quickly and see whatever injuries he had, so he was trying to explain that away in advance. But, in doing so, he contradicts what VDK was trying to emphasize about him being fast.

Also, injuries that GGP thought could be explained away as the result of a fall, sound like head injuries, body injuries of the blunt force trauma type. Not asphyxiation, stab wounds, gunshot wounds.

This is off track a little, but I just wondered if perhaps one of them ran him over. VDK talked about the truck a lot. But, I still don't see why they wouldn't call 911 if that were the case. The only reason I can think of that would keep a parent from calling 911 when their child falls victim to a true accident is if they knew they'd get in trouble for some OTHER reason. Something that would be obvious just by the police showing up there. It would have to be something so evident that they would avoid calling the police at all costs. The only things that come to mind are:

1. Drugs.. would have to be an apparent lab or grow operation OR they would have to be undeniably obviously impaired and couldn't hide it.

2. Signs of other trauma on DeOrr that would become evident and not be explained by the accidental injuries he sustained.

What else??

I think you covered it. Evidence of neglect might be a another reason.
I'll go out on a limb and say I suspect that when Deorr is found he will have broken rib bones.

 

[pepelepolecat]

JMO I didn't take that quote as referring to the people on the camping trip, necessarily. He was asked about how his life changed afterwards, so he could be thinking about people who changed their behavior towards him after Deorr disappeared.

That's a good point. A lot of people pointed the finger of blame at him right from the start -- and it could be that people he thought were his friends did it, too.

 

[Tr.]

Just curious...to anyone who might want to share, what was your initial theory about Deorr and how has it changed as new information came to light?

Initially, I knew of course it very well could be a child who wandered off and died of exposure, was taken by an animal, drowned in the creek...but from the get-go things seemed off to me (thanks to the infamous first interview). I wondered at the time if it was a planned abduction (remember Jessica saying "who would hurt us this way, knowing his much he means to us?". I envisioned a possible drug scenario where JM and DK released Deorr as collateral (a sickening thought) until they could cough up some dough to cover a drug debt.

The sheriff and Klein both seemed to dismiss any kind of drug involvement though.

When we all began to talk about accidents and cover-ups, I came up with the same theory I feel strongest about still today. Little Deorr may have been killed totally by accident/negligence or could've suffered a beating that lead to his demise. It has been my opinion that there was an accident of some sort and that it was covered up to hide signs of chronic abuse, possibly internal injuries, etc. that would be obvious if an autopsy were to be performed. Makes me sick, but this scenario makes the most sense to me, and nothing seems to contradict that it could happen. I am taking everything I've learned about into account. We have very little information to go on, and most of what we thought we had was taken away in an instant when SB revealed the poly results, pointed out the ever-changing stories, and named the parents as suspects.

JMO. What's yours?

This mirrors the evolution of my thoughts as well. I do think that drugs are involved in that one of the suspects is using and that has contributed to financial and "marital" stress in the home.
jmo

 

[courtneyb]

I

I think you covered it. Evidence of neglect might be a another reason.
I'll go out on a limb and say I suspect that when Deorr is found he will have broken rib bones.

Or healed old fractures that don't correlate with any hospital visits.

You see how outraged JM has seemed? And that was on TV, where she was trying to hide it. That frightens me.



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[Hatfield]

It's interesting that IR said "people can change in the blink of an eye and you don't even realize it until it's too late." I can't help but feel like he is saying someone changed, acted in a way that he had not seen or expected in that person, then it was too late to do anything or to change the outcome. In all the talk about abuse, it almost sounds like he is "leaking" what may have happened to the baby. Just my thought when I read that.

Excellent observation.

I agree. Maybe they were being kind and nice people while sober but they turned drunk and belligerent after too many drinks at the Thursday night stop. Then maybe back at camp a big argument got way out of control and Deorr was hurt in the process.

 

[Tr.]

I tried increasing the contrast of the pic to see if it makes it clearer...

Increased contrast:
View attachment 89617

Even more increased contrast:
View attachment 89618
In this one I think his nose looks bruised! Just above that little cut...

Plus the outside of his nostrils have got red marks on them, as if someone has pinched his nose forcefully. But maybe he had a cold and the skin got chapped from someone blowing his nose a lot.

I looked up what bruising from a slap looks like, and it leaves a reverse image of the hand - the spaces in between the fingers and around the hand bruise.

View attachment 89619
https://www.netterimages.com/child-...rgency-medicinetrauma-john-a-craig-25740.html

Nice work...thanks some more.

 

[Hatfield]

I

Or healed old fractures that don't correlate with any hospital visits.

You see how outraged JM has seemed? And that was on TV, where she was trying to hide it. That frightens me.



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That was an eye opener for sure.

There are things that happened on that trip that could contribute to someone snapping.

-Being hungry
-Drinking and/or drugs
-uncomfortable sleeping conditions
-being tired and cranky
-having others around sometimes leads someone to try to show off or act more aggressive
with their partner. Self esteem related.

 

[Tr.]

I

Or healed old fractures that don't correlate with any hospital visits.

You see how outraged JM has seemed? And that was on TV, where she was trying to hide it. That frightens me.



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So interesting for you to say that about JM because I would say the exact same thing about VDK.
My hinky meter does not reliably read women no matter how many quarters i feed it.

 

[Tr.]

Absolutely. I believe IR is easily manipulated. He thinks little Deorr was there because the parents said so. Even though IR said he saw him, I have my doubts.
The more I watch the videos, the more I think VK is covering for JM. He seems to show genuine emotion which I take to be from guilt. The quiver in his voice and the teary eyes almost make me believe he has genuine remorse. JM, as I said earlier, nada, zip.

This is so interesting...because I hear lie after lie when VDK speaks...fake emotions, constant diversions from topic and a true struggle to portray himself as believing what he says. jmo

 

[Rayemonde]

This is so interesting...because I hear lie after lie when VDK speaks...fake emotions, constant diversions from topic and a true struggle to portray himself as believing what he says. jmo

I think he seems really nervous/ flustered as though he's scared of getting caught out. And yes, I think he feels guilty about what happened. Whereas JM in that first interview is cool as a cucumber... No nerves, or guilt, or grief that I can see. JMO.

 

[giagreen]

I

Or healed old fractures that don't correlate with any hospital visits.

You see how outraged JM has seemed? And that was on TV, where she was trying to hide it. That frightens me.



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What interview are you talking about that she seems outraged?

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[DatelineFan]

Btw: Does somebody know WHY RW wasn't identified by his name when the drama unfolded?

The ONLY thing I can think of is that if a witness is also classified a victim, media is not allowed to publish their name.

I'm not saying he's a victim here, but that's what I know based on experience. I can't think of any other reason... This has bothered me, too.

 

[courtneyb]

What interview are you talking about that she seems outraged?

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There are two interviews in which she looks furious to me. One is the one with Vilt, where they cut to JM and VDK, standing there in the orange shirts. He looks like he is trying to look solemn, but she looks furious at having to be there. She even looks at VDK once with apparent anger/disgust. The second one is the one on the sofa where she doesn't utter a word, looking down the entire time. I, like someone else who said so here recently, did not think she was looking down because she was distraught and crying. She looks like she is barely containing her anger. The way they are holding onto her so tightly doesn't say "support" to me, it says "keeping her under control".


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[giagreen]

There are two interviews in which she looks furious to me. One is the one with Vilt, where they cut to JM and VDK, standing there in the orange shirts. He looks like he is trying to look solemn, but she looks furious at having to be there. She even looks at VDK once with apparent anger/disgust. The second one is the one on the sofa where she doesn't utter a word, looking down the entire time. I, like someone else who said so here recently, did not think she was looking down because she was distraught and crying. She looks like she is barely containing her anger. The way they are holding onto her so tightly doesn't say "support" to me, it says "keeping her under control".


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I didn't realize the first one with them in orange shirts was an interview I've only seen the puctures.
But I guess to me the 2nd one she looks sad...and probably on something like xanx. Who knows.

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