ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[teeandcee]

Lovely pics of DeOrr and his family arranged in a slideshow - heartbreaking

I couldn't finish watching. It was too sad. Poor little fella. I hope whatever happened he didn't suffer.

 

[Penelope]

I find it very odd that GGrandfather is deemed by LE to be too incapacitated both mentally and physically to be considered a POI, yet we are relying on statements he made as to what he thought happened such as timing, thinking he was with his parents, didn't know he was supposed to be watching him, etc. Either he is a reliable source of information or he isn't..but LE leads us to believe he isn't.

If friend (who was supposedly unknown by the parents until this camping trip) was also considered to be watching the child, then it would only seem natural that his presence would have been noted early on as another person weighing in on what happened, yet he was never mentioned in parent interview or even by LE in the initial descriptions of people's reports of what happened.

That leads me to think that either he was inside the tent (if there was one) or asleep or somehow otherwise not involved in watching the child. His answer in the interview was so non-committal in regards to DeOrr that it was not clear if he was present or aware of the child, although LE has now said he was at least physically present.

I am not sleuthing him, I am just puzzled that given the description of GG-grandfather's limited ability to provide reliable info, that this friend was not the main person that the parents and LE would have quoted as a source of information right away.

I TOTALLY AGREE. And add these additional comments onto what you wrote...

If Grandfather has been deemed too incapacitated, WHY WOULD DEORR'S PARENTS HAVE THE G-GRANDFATHER WATCH DEORR WHILE THEY GO FOR A WALK? It doesn't make sense unless - (and this is conjecture)
- They asked the friend instead of the g-grandfather.
- They did not ask either, just left Deorr sleeping in the truck.
- They did not ask either, just assumed the g-grandfather or friend would watch him
- Deorr was never there at all - the friend and g-grandfather just assumed he was. Something happened to him prior to his supposed arrival at the campsite and he never made it there.

 

[IDTater]

Many sources state lions often hunt during the day in wilderness areas and most children have indeed been attacked during the day. Mountain lion attacks have increased significantly as have documented sightings. There are plenty cats in the Salmon-Challis National Forest where hunting of them as big game is allowed.

I just wanted to link some of the hunting info that I found on Idaho F&G. Based on the map, I believe that they were camping in unit 37.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/mapcenter/

The most recent statistics available, that I could find, on lion hunts in Idaho is from 2012. It indicates one lion was taken in unit 37 that year. Previous years also show one or no lions taken in that unit.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/stats.aspx?season=general&game=lion&yr=2012#lion

 

[ClaireNC]

I find it very odd that GGrandfather is deemed by LE to be too incapacitated both mentally and physically to be considered a POI, yet we are relying on statements he made as to what he thought happened such as timing, thinking he was with his parents, didn't know he was supposed to be watching him, etc. Either he is a reliable source of information or he isn't..but LE leads us to believe he isn't.

If friend (who was supposedly unknown by the parents until this camping trip) was also considered to be watching the child, then it would only seem natural that his presence would have been noted early on as another person weighing in on what happened, yet he was never mentioned in parent interview or even by LE in the initial descriptions of people's reports of what happened.

That leads me to think that either he was inside the tent (if there was one) or asleep or somehow otherwise not involved in watching the child. His answer in the interview was so non-committal in regards to DeOrr that it was not clear if he was present or aware of the child, although LE has now said he was at least physically present.

I am not sleuthing him, I am just puzzled that given the description of GG-grandfather's limited ability to provide reliable info, that this friend was not the main person that the parents and LE would have quoted as a source of information right away.

He might have been fishing or something when all the commotion began and really not know all that transpired. I get the feeling that he was instructed to say "He just disappeared". Kind of like saying "no comment." On the other hand, if he wasn't there when "it" happened, why wouldn't he just say so?

 

[teeandcee]

There is a new case on WS about a teacher who went missing Friday in Eldorado County, CA while dirt biking in the national forest there. He became separated from his friend and went missing. There have been numerous mountain lion attacks in California, to include some attacks on bikers, at least one of which was fatal.

I bet I know where this is too without even looking. There's a park (not sure if it's a national park or what) that is notorious for aggressive mountain lions. The nature vs. nurture debate with those particular lions is an ongoing theme in my head.

 

[ClaireNC]

Many sources state lions often hunt during the day in wilderness areas and most children have indeed been attacked during the day. Mountain lion attacks have increased significantly as have documented sightings. There are plenty cats in the Salmon-Challis National Forest where hunting of them as big game is allowed.

There really was a lot of mountain lion discussion in the earlier threads. I think it is VERY, VERY unlikely. I have already stated my reasons. The chances being killed by a mountain lion is something like 1 in 30 million, whereas the likelihood of dying by drowning is 1 in 1,113.

Here are some statistics on the likelihood of dying for various reasons. The chance of dying from a predator attack are so low, they are not even on the chart. : http://www.nsc.org/learn/safety-knowledge/Pages/injury-facts-chart.aspx

Furthermore, the increase in mountain lion sightings and attacks is mostly in California, where it is much more heavily populated than Idaho. I have read some estimates that there are only 2,000 mountain lions in all of Idaho. Idaho has so much raw wilderness land and natural prey that cougars do not need to interact with humans, or, prey on small children.

 

[ILOKAL]

I just wanted to link some of the hunting info that I found on Idaho F&G. Based on the map, I believe that they were camping in unit 37.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/mapcenter/

The most recent statistics available, that I could find, on lion hunts in Idaho is from 2012. It indicates one lion was taken in unit 37 that year. Previous years also show one or no lions taken in that unit.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/stats.aspx?season=general&game=lion&yr=2012#lion

That makes sense since usually one lion occupies a large territory. Once that lion is killed, another lion would move in. A mother and her cubs will occupy a territory which might overlap somewhat into another lion's territory, especially an adult offspring female.

 

[persimmon]

I have a question for any parents who might be able to answer based on experience with their own toddlers. Starting at the campsite, I would assume that the parents went exploring by way of a footpath that led directly to the creek where the father saw the minnows he wanted to show DeOrr. Depending on the destination, say creek or toilets...there are only so many footpaths leading away from the camp. Would a toddler know to follow a footpath or would they just wander through vegetation etc if they went off in search of parents?

 

[desert-blue]

I opt for the last item. My conjecture only, mind you!

This would explain why no trace of him can be found anywhere at the campsite. Maybe the store sighting was the evening before.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I have a question for any parents who might be able to answer based on experience with their own toddlers. Starting at the campsite, I would assume that the parents went exploring by way of a footpath that led directly to the creek where the father saw the minnows he wanted to show DeOrr. Depending on the destination, say creek or toilets...there are only so many footpaths leading away from the camp. Would a toddler know to follow a footpath or would they just wander through vegetation etc if they went off in search of parents?

Mine would have followed a path.

 

[mommylicious]

Mine would have followed a path.

Mine as well.

 

[ILOKAL]

There really was a lot of mountain lion discussion in the earlier threads. I think it is VERY, VERY unlikely. I have already stated my reasons. The chances being killed by a mountain lion is something like 1 in 30 million, whereas the likelihood of dying by drowning is 1 in 1,113.

Here are some statistics on the likelihood of dying for various reasons. The chance of dying from a predator attack are so low, they are not even on the chart. : http://www.nsc.org/learn/safety-knowledge/Pages/injury-facts-chart.aspx

Furthermore, the increase in mountain lion sightings and attacks is mostly in California, where it is much more heavily populated than Idaho. I have read some estimates that there are only 2,000 mountain lions in all of Idaho. Idaho has so much raw wilderness land and natural prey that cougars do not need interact with humans or prey on small children.

Attacks on humans don't necessarily occur when a lion is hungry. A mother with cubs hunts three times more than a single adult male. Mountain lions notoriously hunt for and kill more prey than they can consume. I don't think "statistics" play into the instant disappearance of a small child. The circumstances, IMO, dictate what more than likely happened given the area as well as the behavior of the apex predators in the area. IMO, there's really only two real possibilities. Drowning or mountain lion. The sheriff seems to be waiting for that three-week mark which is when he said a drowned body would surface. I don't believe he was abducted by a human, because that would require the abductor to be as elusive as a mountain lion, and I don't see that as probable, given the area and the circumstances.

 

[desert-blue]

I have a question for any parents who might be able to answer based on experience with their own toddlers. Starting at the campsite, I would assume that the parents went exploring by way of a footpath that led directly to the creek where the father saw the minnows he wanted to show DeOrr. Depending on the destination, say creek or toilets...there are only so many footpaths leading away from the camp. Would a toddler know to follow a footpath or would they just wander through vegetation etc if they went off in search of parents?

I think my kids would stay on a path - they don't like the vegetation scratching them and spider webs and what-not. Being short, however, may open up paths that an adult might not see or take?

 

[catswhiskers]

I watched the slideshow of little Deorr. This looked like something that is done for a memorial service to celebrate the life and mourn the death of someone. I do not know the origin of this but the "speaker" in the text indicates these are the mother's thoughts. This seemed to be a professionally done presentation. Photos, music, copy etc. Is there in fact a service planned? A pancake breakfast? A spaghetti dinner? Some kind of fundraiser? I am not understanding......I find it premature, or out of context or something. Where did it originate? JMO

I didn't get that feeling about it at all. I have seen similar clips shared by families of missing children in the past, and I think they are like all the other images and posters created by friends and family and just another way of keeping the child in the public's thoughts - and yes even tugging at heartstrings. It might jog a memory or prompt someone who has some suspicions to come forward.

I found it linked on the Where is DeOrr Kunz Jr fb page, with thanks given to a family member. Definitely not sleuthing that person or anything - but they have posted a wealth of news links on their own page, some I don't think I'd seen before.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

This would explain why no trace of him can be found anywhere at the campsite. Maybe the store sighting was the evening before.

Was it confirmed that it was him at the store?

 

[ClaireNC]

I bet I know where this is too without even looking. There's a park (not sure if it's a national park or what) that is notorious for aggressive mountain lions. The nature vs. nurture debate with those particular lions is an ongoing theme in my head.

I agree it is a case of nature vs. nurture with those particular mountain lions. They have lost their fear of people. It is the same with bears in many parts of the country. When I lived and camped in NJ it was very common to see bears in my yard and in the campgrounds. They bears have come to relate people with food. In the wilderness areas of Idaho and Montana, it is rare to see bears when camping. The bears avoid humans.

 

[teeandcee]

Attacks on humans don't necessarily occur when a lion is hungry. A mother with cubs hunts three times more than a single adult male. Mountain lions notoriously hunt for and kill more prey than they can consume. I don't think "statistics" play into the instant disappearance of a small child. The circumstances, IMO, dictate what more than likely happened given the area as well as the behavior of the apex predators in the area. IMO, there's really only two real possibilities. Drowning or mountain lion. The sheriff seems to be waiting for that three-week mark which is when he said a drowned body would surface. I don't believe he was abducted by a human, because that would require the abductor to be as elusive as a mountain lion, and I don't see that as probable, given the area and the circumstances.

This is my reasoning as well. Here is a video of a mountain lion that is stalking this person out of very assertive curiosity, however, imagine how this would turn out if it was a toddler squealing/toddling off instead of an adult facing the animal. IMO if this cat was truly hungry or aggressive or desperate this man would be dead. Notice how the cat tries to get behind the man. Notice how it closes ground when the guy turns his back and runs. It's very interesting to see.

[video=youtube;d4FbHzeCJjM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4FbHzeCJjM[/video]

 

[Cardinal47]

This would explain why no trace of him can be found anywhere at the campsite. Maybe the store sighting was the evening before.

That's what I have always thought but without any word from the store clerk it's hard to make an assessment. Sigh.

 

[StormyNights]

I live in Wisconsin. Believe it or not we have a lion loose in the city.(Milwaukee) He has been evading capture for quite a while now. It's amazing how stealthy he is! As for kids following a path or not, I think it really depends on the child. I can say for SURE my two girls would stick to a path but my son.....heck no! He would be off exploring in a heart beat. Kids are so quick and they do things that we think they would NEVER do. I have heard parents of missing little ones say that their child would NEVER go near water because they are afraid of it. Only to end up being found in the water. I just have a gut feeling our little guy is in that water somewhere. Search and rescue divers are only human and they can miss something several times over. I think we, at WS, has seen that to be the case many times. It breaks my heart. I just can't see abduction as being the reason he is gone. I would never take if off the table, but it just doesn't seem likely to me. I just hope this poor little man is found, alive or deceased, his family needs him back. My heart goes out to them.

 

[*JMO*]

He might have been fishing or something when all the commotion began and really not know all that transpired. I get the feeling that he was instructed to say "He just disappeared". Kind of like saying "no comment." On the other hand, if he wasn't there when "it" happened, why wouldn't he just say so?

"EastIdahoNews.com spoke with Reinwand briefly Monday morning on his doorstep. He confirmed Deorr was with him and the great-grandfather before he went missing, but Reinwand declined to answer further questions.
“He just disappeared,” Reinwand said."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/

This quote leads me to believe that Reinwand was present at the campsite when the baby disappeared.