ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #8

[starfire]

Deorr Sr said they had never been to the campground before. The GGF apparently had, but it had possibly been many years. It would be interesting to know if Isaac had been there before and, if so, how familiar he is with the layout of the campground area and all the ATV/motorcycle and other roads and trails that lead off from there.

 

[babyback]

.

For all practical purposes Cremated remains are sterile ashes without odor

A normal tracking dog searches for a live person , or the recent path of a living person , and a ton of ashes would not confuse the dog

A Cadaver dog follows the scent of a decaying human body , and the scent has a long lifespan , and the scent of cremated remains would have absolutely no effect on the search

Time to end the cremains controversy. It is irrelevant . Best wishes.

Unless the oven wasn't quite hot enough to distroy ALL of the bones, etc. Which has sometimes been known to happen.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

If the reservoir is higher, wouldn't the stream be flowing out of the reservoir here? IR was downstream from the parents, if I'm not mistaken, so his star would need to be downstream ("up" on this map) from the parent's star. I think. I might be confused...

So if Deorr DID go over the bank towards the creek he would have come across IR first?

I must say, having spent 20 minutes going over the maps, it seems like an odd place to risk bringing a young child and an old man plus his mate from AA. Miles from anywhere, poor phone reception, lions (no tigers) and bears.... it all seems like a mighty strange set up and I'm getting more suspicious by the minute.

 

[starfire]

When talking about the cremains in the unedited video, he says, "they deposited the cremains not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene."

Good catch. He may have meant "potential" but the word crime was there.

 

[Cardinal47]

Well that was simple enough, no? Just ask the source directly when you doubt their accuracy. Whoever DID decide to contact Nate had perfect timing. If what Nate said is true and he did JUST yesterday speak to the sheriff who then set the story straight, it's hard to tell how an earlier inquiry would have been answered.

I AM now and will continue to be amazed how so-called journalists publish so much incorrect information. In this case Nate had NO source whatsoever who provided him the information he published as "fact", so he can't even say he got it wrong. He didn't misunderstand; he didn't through inadvertence mis-speak; and he didn't mis-quote anyone. He simply had NO idea and didn't care enough to find out. That's not sloppy work, it's SHODDY work.

And as an afterthought when the reporter interviewed the PI the PI told him they arrived Thursday evening and since the reporter had written numerous times Friday morning arrival in his articles and his interview with NG that should have been a clue to check into the facts. MOO

MOO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

PS those maps posted above look the same don't they? Can someone less technically inept than me do a side-by-side pretty please?

 

[ClaireNC]

Well that was simple enough, no? Just ask the source directly when you doubt their accuracy. Whoever DID decide to contact Nate had perfect timing. If what Nate said is true and he did JUST yesterday speak to the sheriff who then set the story straight, it's hard to tell how an earlier inquiry would have been answered.

I AM now and will continue to be amazed how so-called journalists publish so much incorrect information. In this case Nate had NO source whatsoever who provided him the information he published as "fact", so he can't even say he got it wrong. He didn't misunderstand; he didn't through inadvertence mis-speak; and he didn't mis-quote anyone. He simply had NO idea and didn't care enough to find out. That's not sloppy work, it's SHODDY work.

Should I point out that just yesterday you were holding Nate's word as gospel?

 

[Jules71]

That is not where the stream is located. See this map I posted a few weeks ago. This map is flipped around with north facing down. The blue line is approximately where the creek is.

View attachment 80220

Its the same in mine.

Yours on left, mine on right.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Cardinal47]

Does anybody happen to know the name of that reservoir? I would like to take some time and try to find some close up pictures to see just how clear the water really is. TIA

 

[haven71]

Air-scent handlers generally don't do discrimination/trailing work with their dogs, instead letting the dogs find and report on any human who is in the area. In practice, this is not usually a drawback: anyone in the area is a potential witness with information about the search subject, and so needs to be interviewed. On the other hand, discrimination-trained air-scenting dogs can be a particularly flexible, useful SAR resource.
An air-scenting dog's lack of specificity can be a problem in a highly contaminated area. If a search area isn't cleared of hunters, hikers, or other searchers (the time necessary is highly dependent on local conditions), a dog team can waste a lot of time finding many wrong people, or even pockets of residual scent. More experienced dogs, especially if they've done some training in semi-crowded park and suburban environments, have some ability to compensate for these problems.

 

[Onebest]

snip for brevity

Did SAR employ tracking, cadavar, AND air scent dogs? I didn't realize til I read up on it that scent dogs but they only follow a human scent. They don't sniff the belongings of a missing person first. That fact obviously complicates things when other people were nearby. Whose scent are they following? Could be anyone's! I would think that since GGP, IR, and parents were the last at the campsite (before the searchers and after Deorr disappeared) that an air scent dog would most likely follow the scent of the more recent humans in the area. I guess it's possible that someone carried, as opposed to being dragged by an animal, him outside the search perimeter, however far that could be.

snip~~Its fairly common to have dogs called out with multiple diciplines since no one really knew what to look for even from the get go. Was he in the creek, did he walk off, was he carried off? no one knows.

We do not know what K9s were deployed other then the cadaver dogs that hit on the cremains in the water. These dogs might only be searching for the scent of human remains, not looking for live people and it doesn't matter too much who contaminates the area as long as they are well....alive.... and stay out of the way.

IF a trailing dog is "scent specific" it could be scented on an item of the person they were looking for. That in itself is tough since most items have more then one persons scent on it. Same can be true with Air scenting dogs. If they are scent specific, (meaning ONLY looking to find the person they are scented on) that is what they would attempt to do.

SO MUCH of this answer depends on the training of the K9's utilized, the condition of the scene once they were deployed ie contamination, and what scent there was to follow. Hope this helps but its very confusing and we don't know the types of K9s (besides the cadaver dogs) that were utilized. I tend to personally believe that after the first few hours with all the people up there wandering everywhere over the campsite, it would make a trailing job really really hard if not impossible. And after 12-24 hours its almost impossible although K9 handlers will argue that point ad nauseam. Scent specific air scent dogs might have had a chance to pick up on him if he was out there and alive.

At this point running a coordinated search with cadaver dogs might be useful but maybe? its been done. we do not know. The SAR teams who were called I believe would try to support the SO in any manner possible with this information and I personally believe it most likely been thoroughly discussed. JMO of course, I wasn't there.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

As is often said in statement analysis, if the subject didn't say something, we can't say it for him. The sheriff didn't say 100% sure DeOrr was there...so we can't say it for him. The sheriff didn't say he thinks DeOrr will be found alive...so we can't say it for him.

 

[babyback]

Does anybody happen to know the name of that reservoir? I would like to take some time and try to find some close up pictures to see just how clear the water really is. TIA

Stone Reservoir

 

[Cardinal47]

Should I point out that just yesterday you were holding Nate's word as gospel?

That's true but to be fair I think of the story about the blind men and the elephant. Each person touched a different part of the elephant and each thought it's something different.

We each latch onto something we believe to be true and that becomes our truth.

The story

In various versions of the tale, a group of blind men (or men in the dark) touch an elephant to learn what it is like. Each one feels a different part, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then compare notes and learn that they are in complete disagreement.

The stories differ primarily in how the elephant's body parts are described, how violent the conflict becomes and how (or if) the conflict among the men and their perspectives is resolved.

In some versions, they stop talking, start listening and collaborate to "see" the full elephant. When a sighted man walks by and sees the entire elephant all at once, the blind men also learn they are all blind. While one's subjective experience is true, it may not be the totality of truth. If the sighted man was deaf, he would not hear the elephant bellow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Sigh...

 

[haven71]

Did SAR employ tracking, cadavar, AND air scent dogs? I didn't realize til I read up on it that scent dogs but they only follow a human scent. They don't sniff the belongings of a missing person first. That fact obviously complicates things when other people were nearby. Whose scent are they following? Could be anyone's! I would think that since GGP, IR, and parents were the last at the campsite (before the searchers and after Deorr disappeared) that an air scent dog would most likely follow the scent of the more recent humans in the area. I guess it's possible that someone carried, as opposed to being dragged by an animal, him outside the search perimeter, however far that could be.

Air scenting dogs and trailing dogs can be taught to discriminate and be given a personal article to get the scent. Tracking dogs rely on the changes in the microbes in the ground to track footsteps/movement and not on the human sent, although tracking dogs can also be given an article to get a scent.

Yet...
Air-scent handlers generally don't do discrimination/trailing work with their dogs, instead letting the dogs find and report on any human who is in the area. In practice, this is not usually a drawback: anyone in the area is a potential witness with information about the search subject, and so needs to be interviewed. On the other hand, discrimination-trained air-scenting dogs can be a particularly flexible, useful SAR resource.
An air-scenting dog's lack of specificity can be a problem in a highly contaminated area. If a search area isn't cleared of hunters, hikers, or other searchers (the time necessary is highly dependent on local conditions), a dog team can waste a lot of time finding many wrong people, or even pockets of residual scent. More experienced dogs, especially if they've done some training in semi-crowded park and suburban environments, have some ability to compensate for these problems.

 

[pepelepolecat]

.

For all practical purposes Cremated remains are sterile ashes without odor

A normal tracking dog searches for a live person , or the recent path of a living person , and a ton of ashes would not confuse the dog

A Cadaver dog follows the scent of a decaying human body , and the scent has a long lifespan , and the scent of cremated remains would have absolutely no effect on the search

Time to end the cremains controversy. It is irrelevant . Best wishes.

This article certainly implies that that is not the case -- the trainer says she uses cremains to train dogs. If cremains have no smell, then why would they be used in training dogs?

http://tdn.com/news/local/a-little-...cle_72bccd80-9cca-11e2-8be0-0019bb2963f4.html

eta: another source saying the same thing http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Training/DeGreef_2011.pdf

 

[starfire]

.

For all practical purposes Cremated remains are sterile ashes without odor

A normal tracking dog searches for a live person , or the recent path of a living person , and a ton of ashes would not confuse the dog

A Cadaver dog follows the scent of a decaying human body , and the scent has a long lifespan , and the scent of cremated remains would have absolutely no effect on the search

Time to end the cremains controversy. It is irrelevant . Best wishes.

It sounds like LE thought it was relevant.

“It’s pretty disappointing,” Bowerman said to HLN. “Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area.”
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...ack-campground-search-efforts-for-deorr-kunz/

 

[katydid23]

.

For all practical purposes Cremated remains are sterile ashes without odor

A normal tracking dog searches for a live person , or the recent path of a living person , and a ton of ashes would not confuse the dog

A Cadaver dog follows the scent of a decaying human body , and the scent has a long lifespan , and the scent of cremated remains would have absolutely no effect on the search

Time to end the cremains controversy. It is irrelevant . Best wishes.

If all of the above is true, why do you think the sheriff said the opposite?

 

[starfire]

Did SAR employ tracking, cadavar, AND air scent dogs? I didn't realize til I read up on it that scent dogs but they only follow a human scent. They don't sniff the belongings of a missing person first. That fact obviously complicates things when other people were nearby. Whose scent are they following? Could be anyone's! I would think that since GGP, IR, and parents were the last at the campsite (before the searchers and after Deorr disappeared) that an air scent dog would most likely follow the scent of the more recent humans in the area. I guess it's possible that someone carried, as opposed to being dragged by an animal, him outside the search perimeter, however far that could be.




Yet...
Air-scent handlers generally don't do discrimination/trailing work with their dogs, instead letting the dogs find and report on any human who is in the area. In practice, this is not usually a drawback: anyone in the area is a potential witness with information about the search subject, and so needs to be interviewed. On the other hand, discrimination-trained air-scenting dogs can be a particularly flexible, useful SAR resource.
An air-scenting dog's lack of specificity can be a problem in a highly contaminated area. If a search area isn't cleared of hunters, hikers, or other searchers (the time necessary is highly dependent on local conditions), a dog team can waste a lot of time finding many wrong people, or even pockets of residual scent. More experienced dogs, especially if they've done some training in semi-crowded park and suburban environments, have some ability to compensate for these problems.

Not sure if they used all 3. This article mentions scent and cadaver dogs were used:

“Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR, diver’s, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, ATV’s, and over 300 people, were used,” Bowerman said, “With absolutely no sign of the victim.”
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...ack-campground-search-efforts-for-deorr-kunz/

 

[Cardinal47]

This pictures shows a very clear lake and not too deep around the entry.

I removed the picture and video since I have been advised it's not the correct reservoir.

Sorry.