ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

[LinasK]

You bring up a good point about the jury not knowing the back story here. There seem to be some holes that should probably be filled in even though I realize she is not on trial for CVs murder, it would better explain how the group operated and planned the demise of their spouses and the children. For instance, when Lori disappeared for 2 months, she spent alot of that time in Hawaii but also stayed at Alex's house and I believe left her "stuff" there, whatever that might be. She also actively avoided CV's attempts to have her served with divorce papers, then, gets back together with him for a few months to cement her plans as the beneficiary under his life insurance policy, all the while writing fake letters from CV to CD asking him to come ghost write a book for CV! It is all quite diabolical and was planned for many months.

ETA: Also, some of the texts read today refer to the intervention that CV, Brandon Boudreaux and Lori's brother Adam were planning for Lori. Not sure if any of that info came in earlier, either.

Okay I'm confused. Why write letters supposedly from Charles to Chad asking him to ghost write a book?

 

[Ruminations]

I have not read the loin fire novella nor do I intend to. But I do think it is grounds for reversable appeal. It does not address any facts at issue at trial. It, at best shows the parties have a romantic relationship. But they are married so that is stipulated. It should have been excluded as irrelevent and prejudicial.

It is not a crime to have an affair.

They were not married to each other (on earth) at the time of the middle-school erotica episode.

Chad was married. Lori was widowed allegedly by her her own conspiracy to commit murder for a day or two. (Although the story seemed an account of the past- when she,too, was married.)

Even though an affair is not a crime, I think it is 100% part of evidence. It demonstrates a motive explicitly cited in opening statements: sex.

That vomit-inducer story is more probative than prejudicial. The jury won't convict because they almost needed their air-sick bags. They will convict because Lori murdered for several reasons- including love/sex/lust.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

Okay I'm confused. Why write letters supposedly from Charles to Chad asking him to ghost write a book?

So Chad has a pretext to fly to TX and hook-up.

MOO

 

[LinasK]

It would be interesting to hear some expert comments on this. PE can be produced by forcing air through the skin into the veins at high pressure. It does not take much, as little as 50-60 psi aimed where teh vessels are close to the surface.. This mechanism has caused some industrial accidents and there are OSHA regulations in this area.

I've been looking into this tonight trying to figure out if there might be ways to cause PE that are not usually seen so may not be recognized by LE or physicians.

Here is a link listing causes of of air embolism: Air Embolism: Causes, Symptoms, and Diagnosis

It lists 5 potential causes:
1. Injections for air into arteries or veins. A needle injection would leave an injection mark but using compressed air would not
2. Lung trauma
3. Explosions and blast injuries
4. Blowing air into the vagina during oral sex (I did NOT make that up but it could only possibly apply to Tammy)
5. Scuba diving

In scuba diving there are two mechanisms to cause air embolism. The first most people have heard of, the "bends" when nitrogen dissolves in you blood at depth and then forms bubbles if you surface too fast. That would not apply here. The other is a lung over-expansion injury which can occur if you surface without exhaling and the compressed air in your lungs explodes the small air sacs.

I could imagine CAUSING a PE by overexpanding someone's lungs by forcing compressed air in. It does not take much, 30 psi would be enough and that can easily be produced by a tire pump.

Air embolisms can also cause heart attacks (think Joe Ryan)

Air embolisms are rare. Most occur from scuba diving. And yet we have several in close proximity to Chad!

Yes, Tammy did not die of an embolism but there would be plenty of edema associated with lung over expansion.

Very weird if it is all coincidence!

Thank you for posting this. I've long had a suspicion that this was done to Alex. The timing of his death is just too coincidental.

 

[LinasK]

So Chad has a pretext to fly to TX and hook-up.

MOO

Gotcha! So he has an excuse for Tammy.

 

[Nikynoo]

Okay I'm confused. Why write letters supposedly from Charles to Chad asking him to ghost write a book?

That that they could have a legitimate reason for Chad to travel to Lori. In short, so they could be togetherrrrrrr

 

[meanmaryjean]

Thank you for posting this. I've long had a suspicion that this was done to Alex. The timing of his death is just too coincidental.

Except an AIR embolism is not what killed him.
"Embolism" just means something is floating around in the circulation that should not be there. It can be air, but it can also be fat (can happen after long bone fractures), amniotic fluid, or (most commonly) a clot that has broken loose. The clot broken loose and lodged in the lungs is what killed Alex. He was at extremely high risk for this given his occupation and adding the insane amount of driving he did.

I've been a nurse 40+ years and have seen plenty of pulmonary embolisms - including one that nearly took my daughter's life. I cannot think of a single way to cause one intentionally.

Now- did Chad and Lori have a motive to kill Alex? Hell, yes! But I honestly believe his death was a coincidence.

 

[Teche]

One of the detectives stated that surveillance cameras were placed at or by MG’s house. Did LE gather any useful information?

 

[Teche]

Day 23: Vallow Daybell showed no remorse after husband’s death, FBI special agent says

Law enforcement “knew very quickly” Lori Vallow Daybell had lied to the police about the children’s disappearance, the FBI agent said.

www.yahoo.com

Before the text messages were presented to the courtroom, Hart said he reviewed several communications between the Daybells that he felt were relevant to Tylee and JJ’s deaths. When asked by the prosecution how it was relevant, Hart responded that the Daybells “discussed their deaths.” Those text messages weren’t admitted Friday, but Hart is expected to continue testifying Monday.

When the prosecution asked Hart whether he found any evidence of remorse in Vallow Daybell’s texts regarding the death of Charles Vallow, Hart said, “None.”

The defense pointed out during Hart’s testimony that Hart wasn’t showing the entire text exchange. But Hart responded, when questioned by the defense, that there were simply too many texts so he chose messages he felt were relevant.

On July 13, 2019, Chad Daybell texted Vallow Daybell that he said he believed Tammy Daybell would be dead by July 23, 2019, and that he could be with Vallow Daybell after he dealt with all the “hoopla.” Several people said Chad Daybell had told them he had a vision Tammy Daybell would die before she turned 50, according to Hart’s testimony. Tammy was 49 years old when she was killed.

“I need so badly to just gently kiss you … for hours,” Chad Daybell texted Vallow Daybell in another string of text messages before Tammy’s death. “It would likely lead to other activities.”

“Likely or luckily?” Vallow Daybell texted back.

“It would LUCKILY lead to nakedness,” Chad Daybell responded.

Hart also said that Chad Daybell characterized Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow and the children as “obstacles.” Court adjourned for the weekend at 11:55 a.m.

I wonder if Chad’s kids are now having a change of heart regarding Tammy’s death and his affair.

 

[Teche]

I've been following this case for whatever, like 3+ years and to again look at some of the charts/scales and hear some of the beliefs by the witnesses just blows my mind. The person next to you at the grocery store probably think they live part time on planet Xelarvis. And they're just thinking, you're just too stupid, you just don't get it.

These jurors are being fed years worth of info to process in say 6 weeks. Sitting around on Cinco de Mayo trying to wrap their heads around this case. Tacos...not just any tacos. Satan tacos...Not just any satan tacos...the ones you send and store in Antarctica.

I will say, I got a good laugh at JA. Reading it in text format was funny...Hearing the actual audio had me absolutely rolling.
"She says she believed that Chad had been an apostle of Jesus in a prior life. Chad told her he had lived “multiple” lives over millions of years. “He was regenerating as all these great people, right?” Archibald asks. “Yes.” Audrey says. Chad never said he was a “loser” in the 1700s – he was always someone great, someone cool."

Satan entered Lori because her credit card payment to UPS was declined. Antarctica was a no-go.

 

[Kemug]

I wonder if Chad’s kids are now having a change of heart regarding Tammy’s death and his affair.

Those poor "kids". Assuming they are probably now realising what really happened, they must be filled with so many conflicting emotions. At least they have each other to talk to. I wonder if Chad's parents still believe in Chad.

 

[Gardenista]

Am I confused? If I understand correctly, there is no such thing as a "mental health" (or insanity) defense in Idaho. Idaho Code 18-207 says "Mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct."

So I don't understand this back and forth debate over her not choosing such a defense, when one was not possible at all. Am I missing something?

I'm confused about this as well, but the defense did file a notice they they were not going to raise a mental health defense. It seems it has something to do with calling experts to negate an element of the crime. After hearing Prior say he is going to call experts, it makes me wonder if Chad is going to go for a mental health defense

Here is the notice

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010323Notice%20of%20Intent%20Not%20to%20Raise%20Mental%20Health%20Defense.pdf

And here is the law mentioned in the notice

Section 18-207 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

 

[Gardenista]

But this says Idaho allows a guilty but insane verdict

Idaho mom Lori Vallow Daybell used 'money, power and sex,' prosecutors say in her murder trial

Prosecutors claim in murder trial of Lori Vallow Daybell, accused of killing her two kids, that she used "money, power, and sex," to her advantage.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Snail-Overlord]

Except an AIR embolism is not what killed him.
"Embolism" just means something is floating around in the circulation that should not be there. It can be air, but it can also be fat (can happen after long bone fractures), amniotic fluid, or (most commonly) a clot that has broken loose. The clot broken loose and lodged in the lungs is what killed Alex. He was at extremely high risk for this given his occupation and adding the insane amount of driving he did.

I've been a nurse 40+ years and have seen plenty of pulmonary embolisms - including one that nearly took my daughter's life. I cannot think of a single way to cause one intentionally.

Now- did Chad and Lori have a motive to kill Alex? Hell, yes! But I honestly believe his death was a coincidence.

Thanks for sharing. Curious if you know: in your experience, is a pulmonary embolism pretty obvious in terms of its symptoms? Like would a doctor usually be able to pretty quickly and accurately narrow down the diagnosis?

His death genuinely does seem like it could have been coincidence and on its own, a death via pulmonary embolism doesn’t seem unusual or suspicious. Especially given that he was under a lot of additional stress at the time. But the timing is just so weird and my brain is having trouble getting past that! So I start to wonder

Edit: correcting grammar

 

[meanmaryjean]

Thanks for sharing. Curious if you know: in your experience, is a pulmonary embolism pretty obvious in terms of its symptoms? Like would a doctor usually be able to pretty quickly and accurately narrow down the diagnosis?

His death genuinely does seem like it could have been coincidence and on its own, a death via pulmonary embolism doesn’t seem unusual or suspicious. Especially given that he was under a lot of additional stress at the time. But the timing is just so weird and my brain is having trouble getting past that! So I start to wonder

Edit: correcting grammar

Yes. PE is pretty easy to diagnose esp. with imaging studies.

 

[Gut_feeling]

Yes, normally it would not be suspicious to me but I wonder in this case. Alex's death was so convenient! As I detailed in my post, there are also air embolisms and even a coroner may not determine the difference. Both block blood flow so it would be easy to see evidence of blocked blood flow and assume blood clots.

There is an organization (DAN) associated with Duke University that functions as the "poison control center" for diving injuries. Most physicians outside of coastal areas are completely unfamiliar with diving injuries and call DAN when presented with a potential diving injury. It would not be unreasonable to think that a coroner/ME in Idaho/Utah/Arizona might completely miss a lung injury with an unusual cause such as inflating with a compressor or bicycle pump.

I know it's farfetched and I am generallt skeptical of conspiracies. But we've already decided there was a conspiracy here so exploring how far-reaching it might have been I don't think is too crazy!

On a personal note, a coworker and friend died of a PE a few years ago. He was in very good shape, an athlete, fit, no health issues. Collapsed waiting for his short flight home after a 4 hour airplane flight. 60 years old. So I agree, it happens.

Alex's autopsy mentions multiple blood clots in his lungs. A blood clot was removed and "filed" (as evidence of the clot).

 

[Snail-Overlord]

Yes. PE is pretty easy to diagnose esp. with imaging studies.

Thank you!

 

[Love Never Fails]

IF she wasn't present for Charles' murder, perhaps she believed Lori's version. IMO she knew about Lori's religious delusions, but didn't suspect that her and JJ's lives were in danger from her own Mother and uncle. Tammy also had no idea what Chad was planning for her.

Because of the patriarchal ideas of the LDS church, and because Tammy helped Chad in selling his books, I wonder if Chad gently told her on several occasions that she was going to die before she turned 50?

 

[fred&edna]

Not at all important but... does anyone know what they were doing with a bunch of those silicone rings? Were they used as hair ties? Or wedding bands for the beach etc (so the real malachite rings didn't sustain any damage)? Or some spiritual tools? Or some kink thing? lol

 

[Tanager]

I appreciate everyone's research! I am going to admit to being too lazy to conduct it myself, other than in a super-unscientific googly way.

I may be going a tinch batty from this case. I really do think AC was killed or persuaded to kill himself in some form. The timing, and what he said about being a fall guy are just screaming out to me. I do think he had an underlying condition, and maybe he ceased taking important meds or added meds or some other substance that would exacerbate his condition. He could have intentionally engaged in physical behaviors/activity that contributed to/escalated his death. I also think that LVD and CD may have conducted some form of psychological warfare on him using cult speak that either stressed him to the level of physical vulnerability or forced a suicide. I don't know what they did, but they did something. It would never stand up in court, but...

I can picture one of them saying, "There is some psychic S about to hit the fan, so you need to consume a bunch of some (harmful) substance to protect yourself." He was VERY suggestible. It feels like their kind of MO.

There are so many untimely and young deaths associated with the case. I am 55, and everyone my age in my life who has died young has died accidentally (car, etc.) or from a serious documented chronic medical issue. All of the key people dying in this case died prior to 60, suddenly. It happens, but dropping dead on the young side does not happen in a cluster this frequently, particularly when there are the same two people reaping benefit upon benefit. I need a mathematician to weigh in on the odds.

Maybe I don't want to admit that I am "old" and sudden death is now on the menu.