ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

[Nikynoo]

I'm confused about this as well, but the defense did file a notice they they were not going to raise a mental health defense. It seems it has something to do with calling experts to negate an element of the crime. After hearing Prior say he is going to call experts, it makes me wonder if Chad is going to go for a mental health defense

Here is the notice

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR22211624/010323Notice%20of%20Intent%20Not%20to%20Raise%20Mental%20Health%20Defense.pdf

And here is the law mentioned in the notice

Section 18-207 – Idaho State Legislature

legislature.idaho.gov

I don’t recall Prior saying this. But in relation to your link and Lori, I think the defence may try and state that she requires medical treatment or may require medical treatment in the future and the court should take that into account. I didn’t see anything in the link that indicates a reduction in the length of sentence, only that if treatment is required and is given and then ended, the defendant still needs to complete the remainder of the sentence. The time spent receiving treatment for the mental illness is treated as time served.

 

[Nikynoo]

But this says Idaho allows a guilty but insane verdict

Idaho mom Lori Vallow Daybell used 'money, power and sex,' prosecutors say in her murder trial

Prosecutors claim in murder trial of Lori Vallow Daybell, accused of killing her two kids, that she used "money, power, and sex," to her advantage.

www.usatoday.com

This article contained within your link is what I think JA will argue - she did not think she was killing a human, but a zombie. I don’t think it will fly, but it will be interesting to hear the argument.

Insanity in the State of Idaho

States remain free to adopt a framework for addressing the relationship between mental illness and criminal responsibility.

www.apa.org

 

[Gardenista]

I don’t recall Prior saying this. But in relation to your link and Lori, I think the defence may try and state that she requires medical treatment or may require medical treatment in the future and the court should take that into account. I didn’t see anything in the link that indicates a reduction in the length of sentence, only that if treatment is required and is given and then ended, the defendant still needs to complete the remainder of the sentence. The time spent receiving treatment for the mental illness is treated as time served.

In Chad's hearing on Thursday, Prior said he would be calling 7 or 8 experts

 

[aafromaa]

Because of the patriarchal ideas of the LDS church, and because Tammy helped Chad in selling his books, I wonder if Chad gently told her on several occasions that she was going to die before she turned 50?

Hmmm…Well…that could explain why she willingly increased her life insurance policy after leaving it the minimum amount all those years - she would have turned 50 before the next annual enrollment came up - and if she thought she was going to die before then she may have wanted to leave something for her children.

 

[Nikynoo]

Thanks for sharing. Curious if you know: in your experience, is a pulmonary embolism pretty obvious in terms of its symptoms? Like would a doctor usually be able to pretty quickly and accurately narrow down the diagnosis?

His death genuinely does seem like it could have been coincidence and on its own, a death via pulmonary embolism doesn’t seem unusual or suspicious. Especially given that he was under a lot of additional stress at the time. But the timing is just so weird and my brain is having trouble getting past that! So I start to wonder

Edit: correcting grammar

My dear dad died of a massive pulmonary embolism. It blocked both branches/airways to the lungs. In the 10 days before he died he had returned to the UK from Mexico. In the weeks before that, he had long haul trips to and return to China and of course, the outward journey to Mexico. My dad saw our doctor for leg swelling and shortness of breath about 5 days before he died. My dad was 68 and relatively fit and looking at his health records, didn’t have any heart or chest problems.

I do know that he had difficultly keeping hydrated in China and I know that the shortness of breath began in Mexico.

In my non medical opinion, the doctor should have spotted it, but I think being dehydrated together with four long haul flights contributed massively to the PE. For information, death is more or less instantaneous.

 

[raja]

I appreciate everyone's research! I am going to admit to being too lazy to conduct it myself, other than in a super-unscientific googly way.

I may be going a tinch batty from this case. I really do think AC was killed or persuaded to kill himself in some form. The timing, and what he said about being a fall guy are just screaming out to me. I do think he had an underlying condition, and maybe he ceased taking important meds or added meds or some other substance that would exacerbate his condition. He could have intentionally engaged in physical behaviors/activity that contributed to/escalated his death. I also think that LVD and CD may have conducted some form of psychological warfare on him using cult speak that either stressed him to the level of physical vulnerability or forced a suicide. I don't know what they did, but they did something. It would never stand up in court, but...

I can picture one of them saying, "There is some psychic S about to hit the fan, so you need to consume a bunch of some (harmful) substance to protect yourself." He was VERY suggestible. It feels like their kind of MO.

There are so many untimely and young deaths associated with the case. I am 55, and everyone my age in my life who has died young has died accidentally (car, etc.) or from a serious documented chronic medical issue. All of the key people dying in this case died prior to 60, suddenly. It happens, but dropping dead on the young side does not happen in a cluster this frequently, particularly when there are the same two people reaping benefit upon benefit. I need a mathematician to weigh in on the odds.

Maybe I don't want to admit that I am "old" and sudden death is now on the menu.

I have to agree with you on this. I have a hard time believing it was a death by natural causes. The timing is just so suspect. There is always a chance they missed something at the autopsy I suppose. We will more than likely ever know.

 

[Nikynoo]

In Chad's hearing on Thursday, Prior said he would be calling 7 or 8 experts

What kind of experts? I definitely think they will challenge the cause of death for Tammy, but what else?

 

[Snail-Overlord]

I appreciate everyone's research! I am going to admit to being too lazy to conduct it myself, other than in a super-unscientific googly way.

I may be going a tinch batty from this case. I really do think AC was killed or persuaded to kill himself in some form. The timing, and what he said about being a fall guy are just screaming out to me. I do think he had an underlying condition, and maybe he ceased taking important meds or added meds or some other substance that would exacerbate his condition. He could have intentionally engaged in physical behaviors/activity that contributed to/escalated his death. I also think that LVD and CD may have conducted some form of psychological warfare on him using cult speak that either stressed him to the level of physical vulnerability or forced a suicide. I don't know what they did, but they did something. It would never stand up in court, but...

I can picture one of them saying, "There is some psychic S about to hit the fan, so you need to consume a bunch of some (harmful) substance to protect yourself." He was VERY suggestible. It feels like their kind of MO.

There are so many untimely and young deaths associated with the case. I am 55, and everyone my age in my life who has died young has died accidentally (car, etc.) or from a serious documented chronic medical issue. All of the key people dying in this case died prior to 60, suddenly. It happens, but dropping dead on the young side does not happen in a cluster this frequently, particularly when there are the same two people reaping benefit upon benefit. I need a mathematician to weigh in on the odds.

Maybe I don't want to admit that I am "old" and sudden death is now on the menu.

Not a mathematician but sharing from personal experience: my grandfather unexpectedly had a massive heart attack in his 40s. He was helping my mom move a couch up stairs into a new apartment, and then suddenly, heart attack. No prior health concerns; ex-smoker. It did not kill him, but it would have had he not been taken to the hospital immediately. He needed a heart transplant, lived for almost 30 more years after that.

I think sometimes there can be problems brewing in someone’s body that aren’t causing any symptoms that would warrant a doctor visit, and sometimes those changes can happen at an unusually young age. IMO, genetics does play a huge role; people with the same lifestyles can have vastly different heath outcomes due to their genes. I’ve tested my own DNA and have found I happen to have a relatively common gene associated with a majorly increased risk of stroke, heart attack, and other cardiovascular events — go figure. I would be curious to know if the Cox family had any history of cardiovascular troubles. If they did, that could offer some insight

(IMO)

 

[Nikynoo]

Hmmm…Well…that could explain why she willingly increased her life insurance policy after leaving it the minimum amount all those years - she would have turned 50 before the next annual enrollment came up - and if she thought she was going to die before then she may have wanted to leave something for her children.

She should have included the children as beneficiaries.

 

[Nikynoo]

I have to agree with you on this. I have a hard time believing it was a death by natural causes. The timing is just so suspect. There is always a chance they missed something at the autopsy I suppose. We will more than likely ever know.

There was another autopsy done I believe (or a review undertaken of the original autopsy. IIRC, it was only done on samples taken at the original. Again IIRC the FBI was present for both.

 

[Ruminations]

Alex's autopsy mentions multiple blood clots in his lungs. A blood clot was removed and "filed" (as evidence of the clot).

So the ME faked findings in the autopsy --- to?

Cover for Lori and Chad?

That's implausible.

The only possible murder/suicide is one that was attempted and not detected but the PE also killed him or killed him first.

MOO

 

[KMouse]

I have a bad feeling that he's going to claim persecution like historic figures. go to trial , get convicted. DP takes forever. In the meantime he releases more of his nonsense via groupies who visit him while he's incarcerated

Absolutely. He'll be a martyr. He'll write his nonsense from jail and his groupies will be led to believe that they will still be the chosen ones. Wonder how much get gets sent to him for canteen money.

 

[Ruminations]

What kind of experts? I definitely think they will challenge the cause of death for Tammy, but what else?

Interestingly, the host of Mormon stories, a fantastic you tube channel, says he was approached by Prior to be an expert on the LDS church.

He has deeply covered how going "deep" into the theology does logically lead to off shoots like Chad's. Even though "headquarters" does not teach it to the general churchgoer. Off shoots think the church has liberalized to apostasy. The church when pushed says the cults are apostasy. And leaders might get excommunicated for claiming to be s prophet.

When push comes to shove, reading deep and studying what does not get taught in the church, LDS literature supports the off shoots, even if "headquarters" does not.

That's why there are conflicting emotional responses to cases like this. "That's not real LDS," competes with "The LDS church is a cult itself and caused it."

What I have learned is, they are both right! I get the impression most Mormons never learn know or care about the "extreme" teaches embedded in scripture, but not encourage by the church.

It's not a matter of interpretation, either. Like"Spate the rod and spoil the child," which justifies or forbids beating children, depending on how you read it.

Books like "The second Comforter," a cult favorite, spend a lot of ink saying, "they didn't tell you this, but...."

BTW, a lot of this stuff also is ancient. Such as possession. Jesus apparently did castings. But personally being a prophet gives the church pain, but their own scriptures back it up.

So things could get interesting if Chad's defense is, this is no cult, this is mainstream!

MOO

 

[aafromaa]

Trying to get a couple of things straight in my mind….

When in October 2019 did LV & MB go to Hawaii? They were already there when AB arrived but when did they get there? It had to be on or before the 18th/19th if she was there when TD died.

What day did AB join them? AB says LV told her shortly after she got there that TD had died in her sleep about a week ago. It couldn’t have been a week ago since LV returned to Rexburg on Wed the 23rd - the day of TD’s Rexburg Memorial which was only 4 or 5 days after TD died. AB said they spent most of their time on the beach & went for a bike ride so it could have been that she was there only a day or two before LV returned to Rexburg but do we know what day she got there?

How long did AB stay with LV in Rexburg before returning to MO? AB & MB flew back to ID on Sun 10/27. It’s hard to tell how long she was there from what I heard of her testimony. She said she spent the night and they went to the Temple & that LV threatened to cut her up in pieces that evening when she was headed upstairs to pack to leave the next day. So it sounds to me like she stayed Sun night and they went to the temple on Mon & she left on Tue the 29t. But she talks about CD sometimes leaving in the evenings and then returning to spend the night as if it was more than just two nights. Do we know when she left Rexburg?

While none of this matters too much in LV’s trial, it would help me as I’m still trying to decide how involved I think AB or MB or others in the Casting Circle were in all this.

I guess I cannot understand why you wouldn’t make a phone call to LE when you first realized back in the summer that something is off and CD is talking about marrying LV when TD dies before she’s 50 and LV is talking about evil spirits and weapons and her brother killed her husband. Or why you don’t at least talk to GD when you see him after his mother has died and you know his dad is with LV and at least tell him your suspicions that CD & LV were involved in TD’s death. Or why you don’t at least call LDS leadership and tell them that there are a couple of kooks teaching really strange things contrary to the LDS doctrine and people around them are dying and ask them to look into it.

And I’m still having a really hard time thinking MB/MP was not aware of all of this and even participated in the attempt on BB.

I believe that both MP & AB are truly sorry now that they were ever even associated with LV or CD. But at the moment I’m leaning toward feeling that MP should be charged with the attempted murder of BB. I’m not sure that anything AB did would be criminal- unless it is careless disregard for life by not going to LE before TD died as it was already clear to her that was where this was heading. But I’m pretty sure that if either of these two had gone to LE with what they did know that TD would still be alive today and it certainly would not have taken so long for LE to find the remains of Tylee & JJ.

Having said that….I also believe that someone in AB’s life needs to get her some help. I think she is riddled with guilt and that she needs help to work through this before it destroys her. Hopefully the LDS Church is reaching out to her to give her some guidance to find a path to forgiveness and a way to move forward. I know nothing about her family but she seems to be facing this all alone and I do feel bad for her.

 

[KonaHonu]

Except an AIR embolism is not what killed him.
"Embolism" just means something is floating around in the circulation that should not be there. It can be air, but it can also be fat (can happen after long bone fractures), amniotic fluid, or (most commonly) a clot that has broken loose. The clot broken loose and lodged in the lungs is what killed Alex. He was at extremely high risk for this given his occupation and adding the insane amount of driving he did.

I've been a nurse 40+ years and have seen plenty of pulmonary embolisms - including one that nearly took my daughter's life. I cannot think of a single way to cause one intentionally.

Now- did Chad and Lori have a motive to kill Alex? Hell, yes! But I honestly believe his death was a coincidence.

This is exactly the kind of expert opinion I am looking for. How does a pathologist diagnose a blood clot after death? My suspicion is that they see evidence of blocked blood flow then ASSUME it was a blood clot given the circumstances. So in Alex's case they would assume blood clot because he had risk factors. Had he just been scuba diving they might have listed air embolism as COD. Is there actually a way to differentiate?

 

[meanmaryjean]

This is exactly the kind of expert opinion I am looking for. How does a pathologist diagnose a blood clot after death? My suspicion is that they see evidence of blocked blood flow then ASSUME it was a blood clot given the circumstances. So in Alex's case they would assume blood clot because he had risk factors. Had he just been scuba diving they might have listed air embolism as COD. Is there actually a way to differentiate?

Yes, on autopsy they would see a clot blocking a pulmonary artery and "downstream" of the clot they see damaged lung tissue from lack of blood flow. There is no assumed - they would.open that blood vessel and extract and measure the clot.

 

[Nikynoo]

This is exactly the kind of expert opinion I am looking for. How does a pathologist diagnose a blood clot after death? My suspicion is that they see evidence of blocked blood flow then ASSUME it was a blood clot given the circumstances. So in Alex's case they would assume blood clot because he had risk factors. Had he just been scuba diving they might have listed air embolism as COD. Is there actually a way to differentiate?

No. The blood clot is still in situ when the autopsy is carried out, it doesn’t disappear. In PE the clot gets stuck cutting off the air supply to the lungs.

 

[Love Never Fails]

My dear dad died of a massive pulmonary embolism. It blocked both branches/airways to the lungs. In the 10 days before he died he had returned to the UK from Mexico. In the weeks before that, he had long haul trips to and return to China and of course, the outward journey to Mexico. My dad saw our doctor for leg swelling and shortness of breath about 5 days before he died. My dad was 68 and relatively fit and looking at his health records, didn’t have any heart or chest problems.

I do know that he had difficultly keeping hydrated in China and I know that the shortness of breath began in Mexico.

In my non medical opinion, the doctor should have spotted it, but I think being dehydrated together with four long haul flights contributed massively to the PE. For information, death is more or less instantaneous.

I’m so sorry to hear that. I think it is more common than people realize. Your dad was young. But PE can really happen at any age.

 

[Love Never Fails]

I wonder if Chad’s kids are now having a change of heart regarding Tammy’s death and his affair.

I’m not sure if they will ever publicly turn against him. They likely want to remember the times that were good and pretend they were real. I believe Chad always had a very evil side and as long as his family went along with it, all was good. I would love to see them tell him to his face during the punishment phase of his trial what a monster he is. But I suspect they won’t.

 

[Nikynoo]

I’m so sorry to hear that. I think it is more common than people realize. Your dad was young. But PE can really happen at any age.

Thank you