Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #62

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  • #801
Very interesting piece from Lori Hellis: Insanity and Idaho - What Lori Might Do (9/8/21)

"Proof that Lori’s mental illness predated the crimes and may have been much more severe than anyone suspected is at the center of her defense, even in Idaho. If the defense can build a case that Lori was delusional and believed God was telling her that her husband and children were dark spirits, it’s only a quick jump to the claim that Lori did not have the mental capacity to form the intent."
I’m sorry, but what motive would she ever have to admit she didn’t believe God was talking to her? Even if she’s crazy (and I don’t doubt her sanity one bit) she’s not stupid. Nor does she have a conscience. Unless the court insists she’s faking this woman is never going to trial. And I don’t think this court will ever be that brave. All we can hope is Chad doesn’t decide to play the same game.

ETA But I don’t think Chad would be able to play it nearly as convincingly.
 
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  • #802
It's true there are different types of mental evaluations. We really don't know what type of evaluation LVD may or may NOT have undergone in AZ. And, I agree... being in prison/jail would push many (if not most) people to face declines physically, mentally, and/or emotionally. While I actually respect many trained mental health professionals, I also believe there are greatly differing psychological opinions even with the same type of mental health evaluations of the very same patient (seen in many many court cases, as well as other documentation). She's had years of practice at skate n' fake so I'm personally going to stick with that viewpoint. :)

At least the prosecution can make sure the jury knows about these other 'evaluations.'

(Still holding on to the idea of a jury....)

jmho ymmv lrr
 
  • #803
So the new attorney has let MM resume his babysitting role? IMO LV will never get “better” as long as MM is around to influence her. Never. Unless they remove him they might as well quit wasting everyone’s time with competency evaluations and hearings. LV and MM know her only chance to avoid A guilty verdict is by avoiding trial altogether. And feigning incompetence is a game LV IMO can and will play for the rest of her life. I suspect MM is there to remind her of that every day. And w/access to her (lack of) progress reports he’ll be sure to give her the heads up if she accidentally shows signs of recovery in plenty of time to relapse.
I have no way to confirm he is there visiting with LVD. I can only confirm who is there. Occasionally I have seen JA there. But more often than not it’s just MM. Is there other clients? Maybe. Is it odd to see both there sometimes? Definitely. Does that mean LVD is there? Unknown. Just hoping to help to connect further dots of who’s where and when. Hope this clears things up.

All jmo moo imo
 
  • #804
I'm going to guess it was by being cute and flirty with whoever was doing the evaluation.

For some reason cute and flirty doesn't work with my theory of skating/faking a mental evaluation in this instance - although it may have worked with male LE officers. :)

jmo
 
  • #805
I’m sorry, but what motive would she ever have to admit she didn’t believe God was talking to her? Even if she’s crazy (and I don’t doubt her sanity one bit) she’s not stupid. Nor does she have a conscience. Unless the court insists she’s faking this woman is never going to trial. And I don’t think this court will ever be that brave. All we can hope is Chad doesn’t decide to play the same game.

Yeah, but for competence, it wouldn't matter whether God was talking to her as long as what she was hearing from Him showed an understanding of the charges against her. You can be nuttier than a fruitcake and still competent to stand trial.
 
  • #806
I'm still not convinced she's at the jail. This is obviously not a short term fix. I don’t think MM is just visiting her all day, almost every day. JMO
True, but Casey Anthony managed to hang around her lawyer's office all day prior to her trial.
 
  • #807
I'm still not convinced she's at the jail. This is obviously not a short term fix. I don’t think MM is just visiting her all day, almost every day. JMO
I can only confirm what I see, which is MM or JA stopping by or leaving. I don’t have an “in” to know if LVD is at the women’s detention center. I’m just hoping to connect further dots of who’s where and when. It does seem odd to see MM down here so often when it’s such a drive away from the Boise area. But it’s not unlikely for lawyers to have multiple clients so it’s really just a guessing game as to LVD whereabouts.

All jmo moo imo
 
  • #808
For some reason cute and flirty doesn't work with my theory of skating/faking a mental evaluation in this instance - although it may have worked with male LE officers. :)

jmo

I think that's how she skates and deflects. I don't think she knows any other way to relate to men.
 
  • #809
  • #810
I’m sorry, but what motive would she ever have to admit she didn’t believe God was talking to her? Even if she’s crazy (and I don’t doubt her sanity one bit) she’s not stupid. Nor does she have a conscience. Unless the court insists she’s faking this woman is never going to trial. And I don’t think this court will ever be that brave. All we can hope is Chad doesn’t decide to play the same game.

ETA But I don’t think Chad would be able to play it nearly as convincingly.


There is a difference between sanity and competence. Hearing voices others don’t hear might indicate mental illness. But it doesn’t necessarily indicate incompetence. I happen to believe (but not know) that Lori believes dead gods, saints, relatives have spoken to her. I believe that she believed that, among other times, when she was at the police station reporting her purse stolen by Charles. She was insane. She was also fully competent, and able to say what she needed to say to try to get the police on her side.

It doesn’t matter if she is hallucinating; there are people who suffer with hallucinations and are fully able to advocate for themselves.

What does matter is if she has lost her ability to, for instance, “turn off” the crazy when around people (like the police) who won’t respond well. She could have lost this ability, and she could have lost the ability to participate in her defense. When was the last time we have seen Lori? How would we know?

I could be wrong, of course. There is the Chin, a very effective and long-lasting malingerer. However, I disagree that she has no motive to stop displaying symptoms like hearing God and company.

1) Lori wanted the trials together. Her incompetence makes it less likely to occur her way.

2) Chad wants the trials separated, and his kiddults are already floating the theory that he was framed. Lori is unable to respond to this if she is faking incompetence. I have trouble imagining her able to sit by; she is no stranger to (family) court, and has never been one to let the legal professionals make her case while she speaks when spoken to.

3) Whenever Lori wants anything, she would have to go about getting it without using the competence she is pretending to have lost. That means she has almost no control over her environment, which I think we agree she values.

4) Remember, no competence means no manipulation. No batting eyes. No, ha-ha-ha I don’t want to be found competent. No flirting a soda out of your cell mates visitor. No getting the guard to share the lunch his wife packed for him. How long could Lori keep that up?

5) If Lori wants to avoid death, she is much better off telling her side of the story and blaming Chad and Alex as much as possible, not letting Chad get his narrative out first with Lori silenced by choice. Otherwise, Chad will blame everything possible on her, and as soon as she becomes competent, she’s facing death.

Colby said something about his mother just saying everything’s going to be all right- when obviously it already wasn’t. Maybe he saw the beginnings of a person who was no longer that charming liar on body cams and was now a scarily, disconnected and unrealistic person- with suggestions like calling Jesus to the stand.

IMO- and with no inside scoop.
 
  • #811
I have the impression that the Cox family has a lot of experience with the US court system in quite a few states.
 
  • #812
  • #813
  • #814
It's true there are different types of mental evaluations. We really don't know what type of evaluation LVD may or may NOT have undergone in AZ. And, I agree... being in prison/jail would push many (if not most) people to face declines physically, mentally, and/or emotionally. While I actually respect many trained mental health professionals, I also believe there are greatly differing psychological opinions even with the same type of mental health evaluations of the very same patient (seen in many many court cases, as well as other documentation). She's had years of practice at skate n' fake so I'm personally going to stick with that viewpoint. :)
I wonder why RW backed off from initially questioning the evaluation? Upon a review the state's expert probably concluded that the reasoning for her diagnosis would be difficult to dispute.
 
  • #815
There is a difference between sanity and competence. Hearing voices others don’t hear might indicate mental illness. But it doesn’t necessarily indicate incompetence. I happen to believe (but not know) that Lori believes dead gods, saints, relatives have spoken to her. I believe that she believed that, among other times, when she was at the police station reporting her purse stolen by Charles. She was insane. She was also fully competent, and able to say what she needed to say to try to get the police on her side.

It doesn’t matter if she is hallucinating; there are people who suffer with hallucinations and are fully able to advocate for themselves.

What does matter is if she has lost her ability to, for instance, “turn off” the crazy when around people (like the police) who won’t respond well. She could have lost this ability, and she could have lost the ability to participate in her defense. When was the last time we have seen Lori? How would we know?

I could be wrong, of course. There is the Chin, a very effective and long-lasting malingerer. However, I disagree that she has no motive to stop displaying symptoms like hearing God and company.

1) Lori wanted the trials together. Her incompetence makes it less likely to occur her way.

2) Chad wants the trials separated, and his kiddults are already floating the theory that he was framed. Lori is unable to respond to this if she is faking incompetence. I have trouble imagining her able to sit by; she is no stranger to (family) court, and has never been one to let the legal professionals make her case while she speaks when spoken to.

3) Whenever Lori wants anything, she would have to go about getting it without using the competence she is pretending to have lost. That means she has almost no control over her environment, which I think we agree she values.

4) Remember, no competence means no manipulation. No batting eyes. No, ha-ha-ha I don’t want to be found competent. No flirting a soda out of your cell mates visitor. No getting the guard to share the lunch his wife packed for him. How long could Lori keep that up?

5) If Lori wants to avoid death, she is much better off telling her side of the story and blaming Chad and Alex as much as possible, not letting Chad get his narrative out first with Lori silenced by choice. Otherwise, Chad will blame everything possible on her, and as soon as she becomes competent, she’s facing death.

Colby said something about his mother just saying everything’s going to be all right- when obviously it already wasn’t. Maybe he saw the beginnings of a person who was no longer that charming liar on body cams and was now a scarily, disconnected and unrealistic person- with suggestions like calling Jesus to the stand.

IMO- and with no inside scoop.
Good post. I think you’re right that Lori wouldn’t be able to stand not manipulating people for very long. But I’m not convinced doing so would change her competency status as long as she also says God told her carrots are evil and that she had been married to Guard X in a previous life. If believing God speaks to her and she’s just following his orders when he does is the foundation behind her “incompetency” (and some seem to think it is) then I’m afraid she can have her manipulation cake and eat her incompetency cake too. JMO
 
  • #816
If we look at "competence" and the ability to participate in a trial, how did Warren Jeffs, leader of FLDS group manage to be convicted? The guy still thinks that he is a direct prophet.
Warren Jeffs Update: Where the Polygamous Prophet is Today | Heavy.com

And Ron Lafferty, was deemed "competent.
Condemned killer Ron Lafferty competent, judge rules

And of course, Brian David Mitchell.
Dr. Michael Welner Describes Evaluating Elizabeth Smart's Kidnapper Brian David Mitchell
Different Judges?
 
  • #817
So the new attorney has let MM resume his babysitting role? IMO LV will never get “better” as long as MM is around to influence her. Never. Unless they remove him they might as well quit wasting everyone’s time with competency evaluations and hearings. LV and MM know her only chance to avoid A guilty verdict is by avoiding trial altogether. And feigning incompetence is a game LV IMO can and will play for the rest of her life. I suspect MM is there to remind her of that every day. And w/access to her (lack of) progress reports he’ll be sure to give her the heads up if she accidentally shows signs of recovery in plenty of time to relapse.
Apart from seemingly dedicating an inordinate amount of time to his client, I'm not sure if MM is actively helping her to fake it (if she is doing that). He could probably be reprimanded for any such actions. If he is sane and she's not I don't see how he could be feeding her delusions and making her worse. Chad could do that, but he doesn't have access to her any more. I hope her competency is restored and if not, she's not in a good place anyway. I wonder if she'd have to renounce some of her beliefs in order to be restored.
 
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  • #818
  • #819
Apart from seemingly dedicating an inordinate amound of time to his client, I'm not sure if MM is actively helping her to fake it (if she is doing that). He could probably be reprimanded for any such actions. If he is sane and she's not I don't see how he could be feeding her delusions and making her worse. Chad could do that, but he doesn't have access to her any more. I hope her competency is restored and if not, she's not in a good place anyway. I wonder if she'd have to renounce some of her beliefs in order to be restored.
If she were regularly consulting with her lawyer, wouldn't that be seen as understanding the charges against her and being able to participate in her own defence?
 
  • #820
Apart from seemingly dedicating an inordinate amound of time to his client, I'm not sure if MM is actively helping her to fake it (if she is doing that). He could probably be reprimanded for any such actions. If he is sane and she's not I don't see how he could be feeding her delusions and making her worse. Chad could do that, but he doesn't have access to her any more. I hope her competency is restored and if not, she's not in a good place anyway. I wonder if she'd have to renounce some of her beliefs in order to be restored.
I agree if he’s sane and she’s not he wouldn’t have influence on her status. However I happen to believe neither of them are insane and he’s encouraging her to feign incompetence. Of course, that is just my opinion.
 
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