Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #62

[Nurse Gen]

You may well be right. But a lot of people might not consider that to be justice. Also - I am wondering whether Lori would keep quiet in the event of Chad testifying against her. If/when Chad casts shade on her, she might suddenly become angrily competent again, and insist on giving evidence in court. Not that anyone would believe her lies of course.

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I believe that Lori is incompetent.

Incompetent is not the same as mentally ill. One can be incompetent (ex. very low IQ) with no mental illness. One can be mentally ill and competent. Ex. is the Lori Vallow we “know,” IMO, from 2018-2019. I think things have changed. I think she is now both mentally ill and incompetent.

It is very hard to fake incompetence. Refusing medicine is making the kind of decision and reasoning and cause and effect awareness one would need to defend herself in court, so that wouldn’t work.

Lori is highly manipulative, and if she chose to manipulate by faking incompetence, she would have to cease manipulating in every other way.

Institutionalized, there is almost nothing to do play manipulative social games with your peers to the get the advantage in scarce resources. People like Lori (the competent Lori we remember from 2019) can succeed quite well in such an environment. The competent Lori would find a way to be everyone’s favorite, and always get the most favors and rewards. Guards would let her borrow their phone in an office. She would get the best contraband smuggled in, perhaps even at the hands of the staff. When others obtained little luxuries or contraband, they would share with her, the queen of the institution. That is, if she had the freedom to play institution games. Faking incompetence means giving all that up.

People who aren’t manipulative learn to be or at least are hyper vigilant to avoid being abused.

How long could Lori exist in such a competitive environment without revealing her ability to “play,” and thus her competence.

Mental health professionals know how to assess for malingering. A really good faker- and I doubt that includes Lori because I can’t see her managing without competing or reacting to things- is going to make an error eventually.

I guess the longest lasting faker was “The Chin?” He was nothing like this band of narcissistic criminals.

Edited to add: I hope the trials do not get separate. Chad has waived his right to a speedy trial. I hope Lori is restored to competence (if I am right she is legit) or makes a mistake (if others are right and she is faking) soon. And they are tried together. Prior is going to go hard on blaming Lori and Alex (Gibb, the raccoon——who has an angry litter of little dexterous soldiers with a motive to strangle Tammy—-anyone but Chad). Chad, as manipulative and arrogant as he is, goes passive in the face of authority, but Prior won’t allow that because it is not a good defense. Lori is incapable of being un reactive to an attack. There would be less duplication of the prosecutions case, too. Together is more efficient. And Lori will force more out of Chad than the prosecution can in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

So the new attorney has let MM resume his babysitting role? IMO LV will never get “better” as long as MM is around to influence her. Never. Unless they remove him they might as well quit wasting everyone’s time with competency evaluations and hearings. LV and MM know her only chance to avoid A guilty verdict is by avoiding trial altogether. And feigning incompetence is a game LV IMO can and will play for the rest of her life. I suspect MM is there to remind her of that every day. And w/access to her (lack of) progress reports he’ll be sure to give her the heads up if she accidentally shows signs of recovery in plenty of time to relapse.

@Ruminations and @Colorado303 IMO you have captured the essential questions. My years of experience as the nurse manager on just the sort of psych unit where we think LV may be had me nodding my head in complete agreement.
Then @Colorado303 reminded me that LV may NOT be in a psychiatric unit. What if she IS at the jail, getting therapy via telehealth, so no observant and trained mental health staff watching her 24/7? That could provide some opportunities for faking without getting caught JMOO

 

[Ruminations]

This is JMO, Lori is so used to being in control. And one of the things you lose when you're incarcerated is any control over your life. I'm sure that every minute of every day the only thought LVD has, is how am I going to get out of here to regain some sort of control. The only tool she has now is MM. I can almost hear her (LVD) in my mind asking MM, is there anyway you can get me moved to better surroundings. This is where the Psychic Unit comes into play. MM probably telling LVD if you agree to a Psychic Evaluation we can get you moved to a facility where you can have more freedom. Anyone who has ever spent anytime in County lock-up will tell you they would rather be in prison, because County Lock-up is awful by comparison. So LVD agrees thinking she might be able to regain some control. But because LVD is a ward of the state and has been deemed Indigent she isn't going to a private Metal Hospital, she is gong to a State Correctional run Facility.. Hugh difference, but still better than County Lock-up.
Like to take a moment and give a big shout out to the men and women who work in these Correctional facility. A lot of times these people get a bad wrap. But not all are bad. And while yes, sometime these Inmates who are in these Correctional Mental Health Units are rewarded in some way for any progress made in their treatment, they are very small. And the staff that work in these facilities are trained to be very aware when an Inmate is trying to garner special privilege. And you can believe LVD knows everything that CD has said or any plans he might be making where she is concerned. Old saying goes, If you (staff) want to know if a rumor is true in a Correctional setting, go ask an Inmate. They have an information highway that is uncanny. So to end my rant, I'm going to say I have faith in this Judge. I want to believe he is doing all that he can to ensure he crosses all of Ts and dots all of his Is to make sure this case moves forward.

Mark Means is hardly the epitome of appropriate lawyer behavior, but he knows much better than to say to Lori that he can get her into a hospital if she would agree to a psych evaluation unless he thought she either needed or requested such eval. If she requested it, he could think, “who am I to say?” But this would suggest some competence, and would go together with a 90 day restoration if she were recognizing herself becoming more incompetent while having the ability to request such an eval IMO. If he felt she needed it and was trying to overcome some resistance, I could maybe see him encouraging her to see any bright side she was amenable to, such as the change in lock up surroundings.

But, fully believing MM likely leaked discovery, tweeted like an adolescent, appears to have little familiarity with criminal law—- The man is a jerk IMO. Still, I do not believe he counseled Lori to fake incompetence. I also do not believe he knowingly allowed her to do so after advising her against it.

Even if he is part of the 144k, he would want to keep his law license until the beginning of the end of the world.

MM would have no reason to believe Lori would do anything other than blame him if she were caught feigning illness to escape justice. IMO


On another topic, county lockup’s and state prisons vary from county to county and state to state. I don’t know which is better for Lori given her particular “options.” In jail, it is largely an unconvicted population, or people convicted of more minor crimes. Somehow, I ‘d rather break bread with people who don’t want to jeopardize their upcoming trials or who are serving a few months for leaving the scene of an accident than with hardened, convicted criminals who may have little to lose and some street cred to gain by vigilantism. Especially if I were accused of killing children. But that’s just me.

 

[Ruminations]

This is JMO, Lori is so used to being in control. And one of the things you lose when you're incarcerated is any control over your life. I'm sure that every minute of every day the only thought LVD has, is how am I going to get out of here to regain some sort of control. The only tool she has now is MM. I can almost hear her (LVD) in my mind asking MM, is there anyway you can get me moved to better surroundings. This is where the Psychic Unit comes into play. MM probably telling LVD if you agree to a Psychic Evaluation we can get you moved to a facility where you can have more freedom. Anyone who has ever spent anytime in County lock-up will tell you they would rather be in prison, because County Lock-up is awful by comparison. So LVD agrees thinking she might be able to regain some control. But because LVD is a ward of the state and has been deemed Indigent she isn't going to a private Metal Hospital, she is gong to a State Correctional run Facility.. Hugh difference, but still better than County Lock-up.
Like to take a moment and give a big shout out to the men and women who work in these Correctional facility. A lot of times these people get a bad wrap. But not all are bad. And while yes, sometime these Inmates who are in these Correctional Mental Health Units are rewarded in some way for any progress made in their treatment, they are very small. And the staff that work in these facilities are trained to be very aware when an Inmate is trying to garner special privilege. And you can believe LVD knows everything that CD has said or any plans he might be making where she is concerned. Old saying goes, If you (staff) want to know if a rumor is true in a Correctional setting, go ask an Inmate. They have an information highway that is uncanny. So to end my rant, I'm going to say I have faith in this Judge. I want to believe he is doing all that he can to ensure he crosses all of Ts and dots all of his Is to make sure this case moves forward.

Mark Means is hardly the epitome of appropriate lawyer behavior, but he knows much better than to say to Lori that he can get her into a hospital if she would agree to a psych evaluation unless he thought she either needed or requested such eval. If she requested it, he could think, “who am I to say?” But this would suggest some competence, and would go together with a 90 day restoration if she were recognizing herself becoming more incompetent while having the ability to request such an eval IMO. If he felt she needed it and was trying to overcome some resistance, I could maybe see him encouraging her to see any bright side she was amenable to, such as the change in lock up surroundings.

But, fully believing MM likely leaked discovery, tweeted like an adolescent, appears to have little familiarity with criminal law—- The man is a jerk IMO. Still, I do not believe he counseled Lori to fake incompetence. I also do not believe he knowingly allowed her to do so after advising her against it.

Even if he is part of the 144k, he would want to keep his law license until the beginning of the end of the world.

MM would have no reason to believe Lori would do anything other than blame him if she were caught feigning illness to escape justice. IMO


On another topic, county lockup’s and state prisons vary from county to county and state to state. I don’t know which is better for Lori given her particular “options.” In jail, it is largely an unconvicted population, or people convicted of more minor crimes. Somehow, I ‘d rather break bread with people who don’t want to jeopardize their upcoming trials or who are serving a few months for leaving the scene of an accident than with hardened, convicted criminals who may have little to lose and some street cred to gain by vigilantism. Especially if I were accused of killing children. But that’s just me.

 

[Ruminations]

Good post. I think you’re right that Lori wouldn’t be able to stand not manipulating people for very long. But I’m not convinced doing so would change her competency status as long as she also says God told her carrots are evil and that she had been married to Guard X in a previous life. If believing God speaks to her and she’s just following his orders when he does is the foundation behind her “incompetency” (and some seem to think it is) then I’m afraid she can have her manipulation cake and eat her incompetency cake too. JMO

Fair enough—-

At the risk of arguing excessively:

If all of her bat- crazy statements just happen to get her what she wants, her game will be over.

It is like the dark people happening to be those interfering with plans or searching for the deceased children- all the dead relatives telling Chaddy what he wants to hear about videogames, towns of residence, death percentages...

It is hard to believe Chad was sincere when he was conveniently getting the messages he wanted. Same would occur with Lori.

MOO.

 

[fred&edna]

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I believe that Lori is incompetent.

Incompetent is not the same as mentally ill. One can be incompetent (ex. very low IQ) with no mental illness. One can be mentally ill and competent. Ex. is the Lori Vallow we “know,” IMO, from 2018-2019. I think things have changed. I think she is now both mentally ill and incompetent.

It is very hard to fake incompetence. Refusing medicine is making the kind of decision and reasoning and cause and effect awareness one would need to defend herself in court, so that wouldn’t work.

Lori is highly manipulative, and if she chose to manipulate by faking incompetence, she would have to cease manipulating in every other way.

Institutionalized, there is almost nothing to do play manipulative social games with your peers to the get the advantage in scarce resources. People like Lori (the competent Lori we remember from 2019) can succeed quite well in such an environment. The competent Lori would find a way to be everyone’s favorite, and always get the most favors and rewards. Guards would let her borrow their phone in an office. She would get the best contraband smuggled in, perhaps even at the hands of the staff. When others obtained little luxuries or contraband, they would share with her, the queen of the institution. That is, if she had the freedom to play institution games. Faking incompetence means giving all that up.

People who aren’t manipulative learn to be or at least are hyper vigilant to avoid being abused.

How long could Lori exist in such a competitive environment without revealing her ability to “play,” and thus her competence.

Mental health professionals know how to assess for malingering. A really good faker- and I doubt that includes Lori because I can’t see her managing without competing or reacting to things- is going to make an error eventually.

I guess the longest lasting faker was “The Chin?” He was nothing like this band of narcissistic criminals.

Edited to add: I hope the trials do not get separate. Chad has waived his right to a speedy trial. I hope Lori is restored to competence (if I am right she is legit) or makes a mistake (if others are right and she is faking) soon. And they are tried together. Prior is going to go hard on blaming Lori and Alex (Gibb, the raccoon——who has an angry litter of little dexterous soldiers with a motive to strangle Tammy—-anyone but Chad). Chad, as manipulative and arrogant as he is, goes passive in the face of authority, but Prior won’t allow that because it is not a good defense. Lori is incapable of being un reactive to an attack. There would be less duplication of the prosecutions case, too. Together is more efficient. And Lori will force more out of Chad than the prosecution can in my opinion.

The ongoing discussion of competency, mental illness, legal malingering, etc has been very interesting. I may not agree with every opinion but I respect all that have been shared. And, I really liked your post @Nurse Gen as I also believe location (in-patient treatment) makes a difference. I've been doing quite a bit of reading and found the articles and commentary within the JAAPL (Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law) have provided me with interesting information regarding Performance Validity Tests, and a number of other related topics.

 

[LinasK]

Lori compared herself to Moroni. She had a persecution complex and was convinced that those who were after her were dark. The two Rexburg detectives who did a welfare check for JJ were deemed dark translated beings. Are Lori and Chad still playing the light/dark game when in court? Are the prosecutors and judge dark, too? If she thinks those are evil forces, then she's not embarrassed for getting caught.

Well of course! It's like a criminal saying that a prosecutor is biased because they want to prosecute them.

 

[Nurse Gen]

The ongoing discussion of competency, mental illness, legal malingering, etc has been very interesting. I may not agree with every opinion but I respect all that have been shared. And, I really liked your post @Nurse Gen as I also believe location (in-patient treatment) makes a difference. I've been doing quite a bit of reading and found the articles and commentary within the JAAPL (Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law) have provided me with interesting information regarding Performance Validity Tests, and a number of other related topics.

Thanks @fred&edna, and I completely agree with you about this discussion! I'm hoping that @Colorado303 and @Ruminations DO "argue incessantly" lol because their brilliant analyses are keeping me engaged in the aspects of this case that help us know if Justice will ever prevail. JMOO I ♡ WS

 

[BeachSky]

That's how I see it, too. Chad wasn't wealthy nor was he good looking. In fact, he's downright pudgy and slug-like.

Lori was always teetering on the edge of being a religious extremist and Chad took advantage of that. He played her. He convinced her to kill her husband and her kids.

That must have been such a power rush for Chad, who was also convincing himself that he could be a leader of sorts.

Lori's as nutty as a fruitcake but Chad is downright evil.

Maybe someday CDs kids will wake up & realize they could of been killed. Plenty of room out there in the pet cemetery.
I still can’t believe Chad went frolicking in HI knowing the bodies of murdered children were buried by him in HIS backyard. Yeah, his own kids were in and out of that house..fix a pop tart, coffee, possibly sit looking out the window overlooking the b/yard with the dead children.
Seriously.
CD is one scary monster IMO!!!

 

[Gigiky]

Maybe someday CDs kids will wake up & realize they could of been killed. Plenty of room out there in the pet cemetery.
I still can’t believe Chad went frolicking in HI knowing the bodies of murdered children were buried by him in HIS backyard. Yeah, his own kids were in and out of that house..fix a pop tart, coffee, possibly sit looking out the window overlooking the b/yard with the dead children.
Seriously.

They both are!

 

[GRT]

I don't know if Lori is or isn't competent, but I'm not a fan of that designation anyway.

JMOO -- when someone commits a crime, it doesn't really matter whether they think they were doing something else when they committed it -- they still committed it.

If a person really thinks someone's head is a huge lemon and they squeeze it until the person dies--that person is just as dead as if they squeezed it for some other reason.

I feel as though trials should go on no matter what. At sentencing, the judge/jury can take the mental state of the defendant into consideration in deciding if he/goes to a maximum security prison or a hospital for the criminally insane. But, it shouldn't put a trial on hold.

JMOO

 

[GRT]

Maybe someday CDs kids will wake up & realize they could of been killed. Plenty of room out there in the pet cemetery.
I still can’t believe Chad went frolicking in HI knowing the bodies of murdered children were buried by him in HIS backyard. Yeah, his own kids were in and out of that house..fix a pop tart, coffee, possibly sit looking out the window overlooking the b/yard with the dead children.
Seriously.
CD is one scary monster IMO!!!

Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's such an enhanced level of evilness -- as though he could kill at will and was untouchable.

"One scary monster" is right!

 

[indicolite22]

Yeah, it's unbelievable. It's such an enhanced level of evilness -- as though he could kill at will and was untouchable.

"One scary monster" is right!

I think initially, when things went down, Chad was quite arrogant. Not only he buried bodies in his yard under his family's noses, he thought he was clever in his raccoon message by mentioning tree limbs and fun times. IMO using his back yard was likely his idea. Not sure if he thought that nobody would look there or that the case would not cause enough attention due to the start of the apocalypse. If he later sold the property, he would lose control over it.

After the police got involved, Chad likely became quite fearful that he would get caught. MG reported that he sounded very nervous when he asked her to lie about JJ's whereabouts. He also pretended to police that he didn't know Lori well when they were already married.

 

[mickey2942]

I am interested in the charges done in AZ against LV.

Lori Vallow, accused in kids' deaths, indicted on new charge in Arizona: Conspiracy to murder ex-husband

1. What evidence was presented to the Grand Jury, I wonder, in regards to this crime, that resulted in the Grand Jury findings for charges against LVD?
2. Does anyone think that these charges will result in anything?

INMO, the fact that LVD was not charged, and there was basically zero investigation. I wonder if the fact that LVD and AC got away with murder in AZ, and were able to just drive away to another state made them believe that they could easily kill Tylee and JJ as well?

And convinced CD that he could kill Tammy, with no problems as well.

They almost got away with it. When I think of their happy, joyfulness on the beach wedding, frolicking about, they seem almost giddy. I think part of that "giddiness" was the fact that they believed that they got away with murder.

 

[Riverdoc]

The ongoing discussion of competency, mental illness, legal malingering, etc has been very interesting. I may not agree with every opinion but I respect all that have been shared. And, I really liked your post @Nurse Gen as I also believe location (in-patient treatment) makes a difference. I've been doing quite a bit of reading and found the articles and commentary within the JAAPL (Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law) have provided me with interesting information regarding Performance Validity Tests, and a number of other related topics.

Oh, interesting! I didn’t know JAAPL was following, I will have to look!

 

[Riverdoc]

I think initially, when things went down, Chad was quite arrogant. Not only he buried bodies in his yard under his family's noses, he thought he was clever in his raccoon message by mentioning tree limbs and fun times. IMO using his back yard was likely his idea. Not sure if he thought that nobody would look there or that the case would not cause enough attention due to the start of the apocalypse. If he later sold the property, he would lose control over it.

After the police got involved, Chad likely became quite fearful that he would get caught. MG reported that he sounded very nervous when he asked her to lie about JJ's whereabouts. He also pretended to police that he didn't know Lori well when they were already married.

It’s also a quantum of narcissism to believe and go forward to marry another woman SO SOON after the death of your children’s mother and believe that family and friends would have no reaction and just accept it in stride and without explanation.

 

[indicolite22]

I am interested in the charges done in AZ against LV.

Lori Vallow, accused in kids' deaths, indicted on new charge in Arizona: Conspiracy to murder ex-husband

1. What evidence was presented to the Grand Jury, I wonder, in regards to this crime, that resulted in the Grand Jury findings for charges against LVD?
2. Does anyone think that these charges will result in anything?

INMO, the fact that LVD was not charged, and there was basically zero investigation. I wonder if the fact that LVD and AC got away with murder in AZ, and were able to just drive away to another state made them believe that they could easily kill Tylee and JJ as well?

And convinced CD that he could kill Tammy, with no problems as well.

They almost got away with it. When I think of their happy, joyfulness on the beach wedding, frolicking about, they seem almost giddy. I think part of that "giddiness" was the fact that they believed that they got away with murder.

The investigation into Charles' death by Chandler PD was taking place behind the scenes. That much we learned from the PD's document dump. They received several tips and insider info from Charles' and Lori's family right after the murder. Investigations take time. It was determined that Charles was shot again while lying on the floor and that no resuscitation took place. Lori could (once again) try to pin it all on Alex but there likely is proof (communication) that makes it a conspiracy. The grand jury suggested that Chad be indicted as well, which didn't happen. Perhaps it would be harder to prove that he participated in that particular attempt, although we know that it was Chad who declared Charles possessed by an evil spirit.

 

[mickey2942]

Respectfully @indicolite22 I don't believe that there was any "behind" the scenes investigation happening in Arizona after Charles Vallow's death.

Not until the Chandler PD had a spotlight on their "investigation" into Charles Vallow's death. That was when the "investigation" started.

 

[indicolite22]

Respectfully @indicolite22 I don't believe that there was any "behind" the scenes investigation happening in Arizona after Charles Vallow's death.

Not until the Chandler PD had a spotlight on their "investigation" into Charles Vallow's death. That was when the "investigation" started.

Chandler PD recently released 2500 documents (albeit some heavily redacted, lots of duplicates and media correspondence) where you can also read their exhanges with family and the FBI. The documents lead us to believe that they were onto Lori and Alex early on.

Crucial evidence was found at the crime scene which they must have processed otherwise it would have been lost.

 

[fred&edna]

Oh, interesting! I didn’t know JAAPL was following, I will have to look!

I just found JAAPL as a great source of information regarding the topics (mentioned in my post) being discussed here on WS. I didn't say JAAPL was "following" this case but maybe they should!

 

[mickey2942]

Chandler PD recently released 2500 documents (albeit some heavily redacted, lots of duplicates and media correspondence) where you can also read their exhanges with family and the FBI. The documents lead us to believe that they were onto Lori and Alex early on.

Crucial evidence was found at the crime scene which they must have processed otherwise it would have been lost.

I believe that they dropped the ball, no matter how they spin it now. For whatever reason, they realized there was no case, with three people, LVD, AC, and Tylee all telling the same story, that it was domestic violence/self defense. The investigation was not aggressive at all. Whatever they did "behind the scenes", wasn't enough to save Tylee and JJ, or Tammy, for that matter.

New records show how police investigated Vallow, Daybell after Arizona homicide