Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Tammy Daybell, 49, Sept & Oct 2019 *Arrests* #62

[indicolite22]

I believe that they dropped the ball, no matter how they spin it now. For whatever reason, they realized there was no case, with three people, LVD, AC, and Tylee all telling the same story, that it was domestic violence/self defense. The investigation was not aggressive at all. Whatever they did "behind the scenes", wasn't enough to save Tylee and JJ, or Tammy, for that matter.

New records show how police investigated Vallow, Daybell after Arizona homicide

In July, just a few weeks after Charles' died, Kay shared text messages from Lori telling her that JJ would not be allowed to attend Charles' memorial service and that she was moving the kids back to Hawaii, where she, Charles and the kids lived a few years back.

At this point, Chandler Police say Lori and Alex were both investigative leads in the case. When Kay emailed with officers about Lori potentially going to Hawaii, an officer responded saying it would be difficult to interview her in person but if they find probable cause for arrest then it shouldn’t be too hard to extradite her.

Lori Vallow Daybell case: A breakdown of evidence in 2,500 emails released by Chandler Police | 12news.com

Chris Bertram, a criminal justice consultant and former deputy Unified Police chief, told 2News the case and new probable cause statement are “complicated.”

“I can tell you that if you tried to tell people this when Charles died, I think a lot of police officers would have dismissed it as, really? This seems way out there,” Bertram said. “A year and a half later, everything really makes sense.”

Bertram said the document relies heavily on cell phone records and GPS trackers on Charles Vallow’s rental car — information he is “surprised” they didn’t have earlier.

New police docs show Charles Vallow's killing was 'intentional and part of a master plan'

 

[Satchie]

I believe that Lori is incompetent.

Incompetent is not the same as mentally ill. One can be incompetent (ex. very low IQ) with no mental illness. One can be mentally ill and competent. Ex. is the Lori Vallow we “know,” IMO, from 2018-2019. I think things have changed. I think she is now both mentally ill and incompetent.

It is very hard to fake incompetence. Refusing medicine is making the kind of decision and reasoning and cause and effect awareness one would need to defend herself in court, so that wouldn’t work.

Lori is highly manipulative, and if she chose to manipulate by faking incompetence, she would have to cease manipulating in every other way.

Institutionalized, there is almost nothing to do play manipulative social games with your peers to the get the advantage in scarce resources. People like Lori (the competent Lori we remember from 2019) can succeed quite well in such an environment. The competent Lori would find a way to be everyone’s favorite, and always get the most favors and rewards. Guards would let her borrow their phone in an office. She would get the best contraband smuggled in, perhaps even at the hands of the staff. When others obtained little luxuries or contraband, they would share with her, the queen of the institution. That is, if she had the freedom to play institution games. Faking incompetence means giving all that up.

People who aren’t manipulative learn to be or at least are hyper vigilant to avoid being abused.

How long could Lori exist in such a competitive environment without revealing her ability to “play,” and thus her competence.

Mental health professionals know how to assess for malingering. A really good faker- and I doubt that includes Lori because I can’t see her managing without competing or reacting to things- is going to make an error eventually.

I guess the longest lasting faker was “The Chin?” He was nothing like this band of narcissistic criminals.

Edited to add: I hope the trials do not get separate. Chad has waived his right to a speedy trial. I hope Lori is restored to competence (if I am right she is legit) or makes a mistake (if others are right and she is faking) soon. And they are tried together. Prior is going to go hard on blaming Lori and Alex (Gibb, the raccoon——who has an angry litter of little dexterous soldiers with a motive to strangle Tammy—-anyone but Chad). Chad, as manipulative and arrogant as he is, goes passive in the face of authority, but Prior won’t allow that because it is not a good defense. Lori is incapable of being un reactive to an attack. There would be less duplication of the prosecutions case, too. Together is more efficient. And Lori will force more out of Chad than the prosecution can in my opinion.

I wonder if she could have become severely depressed, even suicidal. That seems possible to me and could cause the loss of her usual persona/ways of interacting with the world.

In such a case, a person could be improved by time/medication, and could still be found guilty at trial.

 

[Gigiky]

The reason I ask the question about AC shooting CV. And seeming not to be charge. Is because it appeared it wasn't until after AC dies, Lori goes to jail and the children were found. Then they are now charging Lori with conspiring with AC to murder CV. If this is the way it went down all I can say is, Way to drop the ball.

Also wondering if AC was cremated?

Quoting myself from a previous post. And I do believe that LE really dropped the ball here.

 

[Satchie]

Blame, blame, blame. I guess it makes some people feel better, knowing other people can't sleep at night, like Lori's nephew, who feels terrible because he thinks he "should have" somehow stopped CV from going over to Lori's, etc, etc.

IMO, enough people have already suffered because they had the great misfortune to be caught up in this.

IMO, the people who caused these deaths are AC, LV and CD.

To all appearances, these 3 were sane adults who had been fully educated, at taxpayers expense, to understand the basic rules of our society.

Alex had already served time for attacking an ex-husband of LV, and that didn't discourage them.

IMO no one else should be blamed and held responsible. The buck stops there

JMO

 

[Ruminations]

I don't know if Lori is or isn't competent, but I'm not a fan of that designation anyway.

JMOO -- when someone commits a crime, it doesn't really matter whether they think they were doing something else when they committed it -- they still committed it.

If a person really thinks someone's head is a huge lemon and they squeeze it until the person dies--that person is just as dead as if they squeezed it for some other reason.

I feel as though trials should go on no matter what. At sentencing, the judge/jury can take the mental state of the defendant into consideration in deciding if he/goes to a maximum security prison or a hospital for the criminally insane. But, it shouldn't put a trial on hold.

JMOO

If a person really thinks a head they squeezed was a giant lemon, they might still be competent to stand trial. Especially if they understand that the jury will believe it was a head and homicide occurred, not the making of lemonade.

If that person understands that they can, 1) take the stand and take their chances that the jury has mercy on them, 2) not testify and hope that holes can be punched in the prosecutor’s case, little physical evidence—-If the person understands that option 2 gives them a chance at full acquittal but little chance for mercy in sentencing—- That option 1 means that their psychosis is never private again—-what possible sentences are if found guilty under each strategy—-and the person can make a decision, they are competent.

Competence is not the same as sanity.

Dr. John Matthias gave a statistic that nearly all people who are incompetent to stand trial are psychotic. But only about half of psychotics are incompetent. (I don’t know if he meant in the population at large, or just the population pending trial for a serious crime. I hope the latter.)

IMO, that means your hypothetical defendant has a 50/50 chance of being competent.

 

[Ruminations]

I agree with Satcie, Micky and Indie.

The murderers are the murderers. It doesn’t matter if the police were doing their work very well or very poorly.

The police did do their work rather poorly, IMO. It seems to me the officers on the scene already noted that Alex came out of his room to shoot rather than barricading himself, climbing out a window, calling 911. They should have detained Alex to give themselves 24 hours to let him sweat, see what the other do. (Make funeral plans? Throw a pool party?) Then charged him with something and let him out on bail- with travel restrictions. It really smells like the police treated this shooting differently than others, although locals might know better.

The police were investigating, however. They were not doing nothing. By December, they already seemed to really want to keep our little hit man angel alive. Bless his heart, as Gibb said, astonishingly expressing feeling for someone other than herself, and equally astonishingly doing so about a man who apparently was victimized by having to kill without a particular motive.

 

[mickey2942]

And, I will say, that it is easy to do a post analysis "would have, should have, could have"...

Not blaming Chandler PD at all. That was not my intent.

Just that LVD, AC, and CD were probably sure that getting away with murder was easy, based on the experience in AZ, with the death of Charles Vallow.

 

[LinasK]

I agree with Satcie, Micky and Indie.

The murderers are the murderers. It doesn’t matter if the police were doing their work very well or very poorly.

The police did do their work rather poorly, IMO. It seems to me the officers on the scene already noted that Alex came out of his room to shoot rather than barricading himself, climbing out a window, calling 911. They should have detained Alex to give themselves 24 hours to let him sweat, see what the other do. (Make funeral plans? Throw a pool party?) Then charged him with something and let him out on bail- with travel restrictions. It really smells like the police treated this shooting differently than others, although locals might know better.

The police were investigating, however. They were not doing nothing. By December, they already seemed to really want to keep our little hit man angel alive. Bless his heart, as Gibb said, astonishingly expressing feeling for someone other than herself, and equally astonishingly doing so about a man who apparently was victimized by having to kill without a particular motive.

I would have taken Lori down to the station for questioning by herself right then given that she was the spouse. Seems like those detectives fell for the giggling, twirling her blonde hair "sorry neighbors" routine.

 

[Tortoise]

Lori compared herself to Moroni. She had a persecution complex and was convinced that those who were after her were dark. The two Rexburg detectives who did a welfare check for JJ were deemed dark translated beings. Are Lori and Chad still playing the light/dark game when in court? Are the prosecutors and judge dark, too? If she thinks those are evil forces, then she's not embarrassed for getting caught.

That's your opinion that she was convinced that anyone was dark. It's my opinion based on the evidence that she didn't believe in dark ratings or zombies.

1. MG said Lori sometimes expressed doubts about the belief system and Chad. I don't think there is such a mental condition as a doubted or half held delusion. So it has to be willful belief, not mental illness. I wouldn't even call it a belief. I'd say it's wresting the scriptures as MG phrased it, Lori elevated herself amongst select few religious types to be above criticism.

2. Lori followed Charles to Houston where she had no protection from Charles if she believed he wasn't Charles. She invited him into her home on the day he was murdered even though she says he wanted to kill her. If she thought he was trying to kill her for her insurance she didn't get a protection order, refuse to let him come in, notify police when she claims he threatened her, or change her life insurance beneficiary. It's boloney.

3. Lori gave a different excuse to her family, and to her friend April, for splitting up with Charles, telling them Charles was having an affair. She knew not to inflict her zombie nonsense on more than a select few gullible individuals. When you have to demonize someone through lies you know they are not naturally a demon.

4. Lori knew a prayer to release Charles's spirit from his body wasn't going to do it. She needed a gun. That is not delusion.

5. Lori knew MG wouldn't accept the slaying of a seven year old child so she had to lie about sending him to Kay and she had to change JJ's environment to make him act out. She also had to hide her location from MG. She knew there was a limit to her confidences. Consciousness of guilt.

6. Lori knew she would need an earthquake to hide their murders but she also knew these would not happen naturally. ZP was recruited for her purported skills. Again, you can't have a delusion about end times that requires you to set it up. Needing a disaster to cover up your criminal deeds shows consciousness of guilt.

I'm sure there's much more. This case is drowning in consciousness of guilt. IMO

 

[Ruminations]

That's your opinion that she was convinced that anyone was dark. It's my opinion based on the evidence that she didn't believe in dark ratings or zombies.

1. MG said Lori sometimes expressed doubts about the belief system and Chad. I don't think there is such a mental condition as a doubted or half held delusion. So it has to be willful belief, not mental illness. I wouldn't even call it a belief. I'd say it's wresting the scriptures as MG phrased it, Lori elevated herself amongst select few religious types to be above criticism.

2. Lori followed Charles to Houston where she had no protection from Charles if she believed he wasn't Charles. She invited him into her home on the day he was murdered even though she says he wanted to kill her. If she thought he was trying to kill her for her insurance she didn't get a protection order, refuse to let him come in, notify police when she claims he threatened her, or change her life insurance beneficiary. It's boloney.

3. Lori gave a different excuse to her family, and to her friend April, for splitting up with Charles, telling them Charles was having an affair. She knew not to inflict her zombie nonsense on more than a select few gullible individuals. When you have to demonize someone through lies you know they are not naturally a demon.

4. Lori knew a prayer to release Charles's spirit from his body wasn't going to do it. She needed a gun. That is not delusion.

5. Lori knew MG wouldn't accept the slaying of a seven year old child so she had to lie about sending him to Kay and she had to change JJ's environment to make him act out. She also had to hide her location from MG. She knew there was a limit to her confidences. Consciousness of guilt.

6. Lori knew she would need an earthquake to hide their murders but she also knew these would not happen naturally. ZP was recruited for her purported skills. Again, you can't have a delusion about end times that requires you to set it up. Needing a disaster to cover up your criminal deeds shows consciousness of guilt.

I'm sure there's much more. This case is drowning in consciousness of guilt. IMO

I fully agree that Lori was very aware of social expectations up to and including that murder is wrong. I agree that she was interpreting scripture to meet her own needs, and aware that some would buy it, and others would not, hence her environment-adjusted explanations for her bizarre behavior.

I think it is possible she did believe she was a translated being and related voodoo. But it really doesn’t matter, because she was obviously aware that she was doing wrong as far as the ordinary earthlings were concerned, and aware of our ordinary earthling laws. I agree she had consciousness of (earthly) guilt whether she believed her stuff or not.

I loved the (1.) paragraph of your post. My mind had to chew on the concept of a semi-delusion like Turkish taffy. Finally, I concluded that “wishful thinking” fits the bill. Who knows; maybe Lori was engaging in wishful thinking more than experiencing delusions.

 

[fred&edna]

I loved the (1.) paragraph of your post. My mind had to chew on the concept of a semi-delusion like Turkish taffy.

RSBM and OT!

While your post wasn't directed at me, this bit did make me I think "mind taffy" should be a thing! Very appropriate to describe mental puzzlement

 

[BeachSky]

Lori Ryan Vallow Daybell very competently tried to remove Rob Wood as the prosecutor.

She’s like a sniper who killed for money & power.I have no doubt Kay Woodcock , Melanie Gibb, Mr Wood - anyone that got in her way could of been next in her scope.

She had a meltdown over dead Charles Vallows denied Ins money
She was using dead Tylee ‘s debit card
She kept spending the dead kids survivor benefits from their dead fathers
She helped spend dead Tammys life Ins money

Crazy like a lazy entitled murdering fox
Follow the money$$$
MOO

 

[Colorado303]

Respectfully @indicolite22 I don't believe that there was any "behind" the scenes investigation happening in Arizona after Charles Vallow's death.

Not until the Chandler PD had a spotlight on their "investigation" into Charles Vallow's death. That was when the "investigation" started.

Agree 100%

 

[Colorado303]

I believe that they dropped the ball, no matter how they spin it now. For whatever reason, they realized there was no case, with three people, LVD, AC, and Tylee all telling the same story, that it was domestic violence/self defense. The investigation was not aggressive at all. Whatever they did "behind the scenes", wasn't enough to save Tylee and JJ, or Tammy, for that matter.

New records show how police investigated Vallow, Daybell after Arizona homicide

I have, do and always will believe if CPD had investigated thoroughly and in a timely manner JJ, Tylee and possibly Tammy and Alex would still be alive.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

I have, do and always will believe if CPD had investigated thoroughly and in a timely manner JJ, Tylee and possibly Tammy and Alex would still be alive.

JMO

Agree.

 

[GRT]

That's your opinion that she was convinced that anyone was dark. It's my opinion based on the evidence that she didn't believe in dark ratings or zombies.

1. MG said Lori sometimes expressed doubts about the belief system and Chad. I don't think there is such a mental condition as a doubted or half held delusion. So it has to be willful belief, not mental illness. I wouldn't even call it a belief. I'd say it's wresting the scriptures as MG phrased it, Lori elevated herself amongst select few religious types to be above criticism.

2. Lori followed Charles to Houston where she had no protection from Charles if she believed he wasn't Charles. She invited him into her home on the day he was murdered even though she says he wanted to kill her. If she thought he was trying to kill her for her insurance she didn't get a protection order, refuse to let him come in, notify police when she claims he threatened her, or change her life insurance beneficiary. It's boloney.

3. Lori gave a different excuse to her family, and to her friend April, for splitting up with Charles, telling them Charles was having an affair. She knew not to inflict her zombie nonsense on more than a select few gullible individuals. When you have to demonize someone through lies you know they are not naturally a demon.

4. Lori knew a prayer to release Charles's spirit from his body wasn't going to do it. She needed a gun. That is not delusion.

5. Lori knew MG wouldn't accept the slaying of a seven year old child so she had to lie about sending him to Kay and she had to change JJ's environment to make him act out. She also had to hide her location from MG. She knew there was a limit to her confidences. Consciousness of guilt.

6. Lori knew she would need an earthquake to hide their murders but she also knew these would not happen naturally. ZP was recruited for her purported skills. Again, you can't have a delusion about end times that requires you to set it up. Needing a disaster to cover up your criminal deeds shows consciousness of guilt.

I'm sure there's much more. This case is drowning in consciousness of guilt. IMO

Good, well-thought-out post!

I tend to think she was deluded, though, because I keep coming back to the fact that she was infatuated with Chad, and he was neither physically attractive nor did he have the financial security she was used to. The only thing that could have attracted her was the idea that she could be a goddess.

When she found out Charles had made Kay the beneficiary of his policy, she made the comment it must have been "Ned." To me, that's a clear indication that Lori believed in Chad's light/dark, zombie, possession teachings.

I agree she was secretive--at Chad's urging--but she still let some things slip to MG. I'm not surprised that she didn't share her theories with everyone---that's pretty much par for the course with cult-type thought. The "believers" think regular folks don't have "eyes to see and ears to hear." They think regular folks are the ones following the wrong ideology.

She agreed that JJ and Tylee were zombies and needed to die--but those zombie labels were coming directly from Chad. I think it's interesting how her kids had to die but not his. To me, that indicates that he didn't want kids around, especially not think-for-herself Tylee (so unlike complacent Emma), and bouncing-off-the-wall JJ.

To me, Lori is like a suicide bomber and Chad is the one who plans the attack and straps the bomb on her. They are both murderers, but Chad is by far the worst of the two.

JMOO

 

[Boxer]

I believe that they dropped the ball, no matter how they spin it now. For whatever reason, they realized there was no case, with three people, LVD, AC, and Tylee all telling the same story, that it was domestic violence/self defense. The investigation was not aggressive at all. Whatever they did "behind the scenes", wasn't enough to save Tylee and JJ, or Tammy, for that matter.

New records show how police investigated Vallow, Daybell after Arizona homicide

MOO CPD listened to Charles with a faint but detectable derision, while the deputy at Charles death allowed LVD to flirt while relating events, and did not question her leaving instead of waiting for police.

 

[indicolite22]

I have, do and always will believe if CPD had investigated thoroughly and in a timely manner JJ, Tylee and possibly Tammy and Alex would still be alive.

JMO

Just for comparison to illustrate that investigations take time: Rexburg PD received crucial information (from FBI) about Chad's September 9 "raccoon" text to Tammy on June 1st 2020, which was over 8 months after the children's disappearance.

https://ksltv.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Affidavit-of-Probable-Cause.pdf

 

[Kemug]

Maybe for my next life, I'll be a blonde!

 

[Gigiky]

JMO, But I just keep thinking if it were LVD intention to run off with CD and have some romantic involvement with him, then why o why didn't she just give JJ to KW. And I'm sure LVD mother would have taken TR or even TR Aunt. To think that she did all of this to be free of the children so she could get their money makes me so sick to my stomach.
And now It's all about LVD rights and her mental health status. It is an abomination to those children's memory. It breaks my heart.

And I'm sorry for stating the obvious. Just having a moment this morning thinking about about these beautiful children.