Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 #4

[LHS]

I think the church is relevant to the discussion because it appears to be what brought them together. Chad writes books and sells them primarily to LDS members and that is how the two met I believe, as Lori got into his books. They then began appearing/public speaking at the PAP gatherings along with other well known LDS members. It is not something that can be discounted as it is/was a big part of their lives and so is intertwined IMO.

The beliefs of LDS people have brought together MILLIONS of couples. Very very few of them behave like this. What sets these two apart is what should be the issue. They aren't your average LDS couple in any way imaginable. LDS people look to marry other LDS people because it's FAR easier. And because you cannot be sealed in the temple unless both parties are LDS and worthy to do so.

MOO - Yes it's the springboard to their wacky beliefs. Yes it has relevance, but it's not ONLY the LDS beliefs that drive these two. I'm actively LDS, and I'm nothing like either one of them.

This has really got me wondering now. I know only one Mormon amongst our many relations and that person is into genealogy to track down older relatives who have mostly deceased. Is that the reason so they can be baptised in the LDS religion? All other relatives AFAIK are not LDS and are a mix of Roman Catholic or Protestant. So if those dead relatives get baptized LDS after there death, unknown to us, what about their Catholic or Protestant baptism/communion when they were alive? This seems wrong to me TBH.
So much for not discussing the church but I don't really think that will be possible on this thread, no matter how hard we try. If posters don't want to see it then there is the good old scroll and roll.

This has been explained before, but I will do so again for clarification. I came here to clarify what is mainstream LDS beliefs, and what is not. This case has a lot of tangled up beliefs.

The baptisms performed are not forced upon anyone. We believe strongly in agency and the ability to choose. They are an OPTION. This means that we believe they may choose to accept them or reject them and stick with their former beliefs.

I mentioned in my explanation of this practice that I know there has been some controversy about them baptizing groups of dead people, I think (but could be remembering wrong) that they were people killed in the holocaust. While the focus is largely on relatives for which genealogy has been done, I believe they have also done this for historically significant figures like the founding fathers and presidents of the US. I think I've even heard Hitler mentioned which makes me wonder if this means he'll dodge hell in Mormon belief if he accepts the baptism.

The Mormon leaders (don't remember if past, like Joseph Smith/Brigham Young) or more recent have said that the second coming can't happen until this has been done for everyone who has ever lived and never had the chance to become a Mormon while on earth.

My feeling is that while I get people objecting to "their people" being baptized in proxy, if they don't believe in Mormonism, why does it matter?

The LDS church has prohibited members from baptizing holocaust victims because this is what their families have requested. It was done out of respect. Now and then someone makes a mistake and doesn't know about that particular instruction, and people are understandably upset.

Hitler is on the "no go" list. That's one for God to deal with. Same for Gov. Boggs who issued the extermination order in Missouri (making it legal to kill LDS people there).

No LDS leader has said the 2nd coming can't happen till all temple work is done. That's completely impossible as there are many generations of people all over the world with no records. We actually believe temple work is a HUGE part of the period of time known as the Millennium AFTER Christ returns.

 

[BigAl16]

I must respectfully disagree. I suspect fellow congregants at the Lutheran church would agree, that there is quite literally nothing within Lutheran doctrine that would be of any benefit in explaining what Dennis Rader (BTK) did. Just because a person was once connected to or associated with "ABC", doesn't mean that ABC can explain anything they've done since.

moo

I'm not familiar with Dennis Rader specifically, but in a generic sense, I agree with your point. In this situation the main players, especially Lori and Chad, have spent most of their lives as extremely devout LDS from all signs. Yes, both seem to have gone off the tracks, but in a way that Chad appears to be taking the LDS beliefs what he thinks is the right way (based on his visions). While the mainstream Mormons can rightfully point at Chad and say 'what he's doing isn't mainstream LDS" there still appears to be a lot of the core LDS beliefs in where Chad and Lori are, with their own perversions added to it.

 

[Jethro4WS]

So they could've all been heading toward Las Vegas on November 28th? And met up with Alex and his soon-to-be in Las Vegas by the 29th?

I suspect Lori and Chad left that apartment shortly after law enforcement showed up on the 11/26. I expect they stayed the night elsewhere and then left early the next day - at least out of the county, if not out of the state. Whether they went to Las Vegas or not isn't known yet but based on the circumstance and which players were where at the time it seems very possible to me that they did go to Las Vegas.

 

[Redvines86]

Something else from Chad's blog that bothers me is this, he had a blog entry where is say he had a dream his youngest child would get killed by a car in the K-Mart parking lot. So he called Tammy and she was going to K-Mart with the kids, so he had her come pick him up at work and he carried their child into the store himself. He talked in the blog about his belief that he could change the time line by his actions. Then, when he expressed to our famous author friend that Tammy was going to die, not one word did he say or action did he take to stop that happening. So which is it Chad, you can change timelines or not? MOO, I think there was no dream, Chad wanted Tammy dead. I certainly think our famous author bringing this up has done Chad no favors.

 

[LHS]

Also while I'm addressing beliefs and which ones are out there in cult land, and which are mainstream LDS - There is ZERO doctrine about levels of evil spirits, or levels of outer darkness (some call that hell). However, I agree with the poster pages back that it's a reasonable jump for Lori to make given that I can guess what she's been reading and where that idea came from. There are many who either claim to have more information than the leader of the church, or who want to speculate on things because it's interesting. A lot of them end up on the outside of the church if they aren't careful, but some remain inside, just on the outer edges in "iffy" land. There are books circulating in these groups of preppers about evil spirits and information about them. I've read one of these books and I think the author ended up outside the church in the end. However, that's where I think she's getting these concepts.

Just to state it again - you can tag me in anything you have questions about regarding LDS doctrine and where something Chad or Lori have said has come from. I'm in prepping groups myself, but I'm not involved in AVOW, or PAP or any cultish behavior... I know some of those who are, and I know what a lot of their reading materials are. If it helps, I can clarify anything as to whether it's a mainstream LDS belief, or whether it's on the fringes... or simply WAY out in la la land.

 

[tresir2012]

I'm saying that if Mormon belief is reality (a concession I'm not going to make, but will assume for the sake of discussion only) then Hitler has been baptized in proxy. In the afterlife, but I believe before judgement day, he'll have the option of accepting or rejecting that baptism. If he rejects it then come judgement day I'm guessing he'll be banished to what Mormons call Outer Darkness. In essence their version of hell. A place that, in Mormon belief you've got to be an extremely bad person to land in. If he accepts the baptism then I'm not positive what happens. A baptism on earth washes your sins away prior to that point, so if it is the same he's home free, so to speak. But I think he might have to do some repentance for his past sins as well. Then he'll get into heaven, however the Mormon heaven has 3 levels and my memory isn't good enough to take a stab at which one Adolph might end up in.

However, once a person has died, unless they are someone as evil as Hitler, won't they have already entered Heaven via their own religion? So I don't really see the point of baptizing dead relatives again.
If the religious posts end up too numerous perhaps a sub thread for LDS queries would be a possibility.

 

[afitzy]

I just made an account, as a local Mormon rexburg citizen, to make a plea to my fellow members to quit being so defensive about our faith. Just because someone isn’t mainstream doesn’t mean they can’t fully participate in our weekly services with us. And to be honest emotional healing and alternative health Etc is fairly common in LDS culture. (Hello oil MLMs) We have a wide variety of opinions and beliefs even among active weekly members. I don’t think people in this forum are having a hard time grasping that. I’m frustrated at people in these fringe groups claiming full mormonism but of course this has to do with our faith an beliefs — for crying out loud it’s about a man who had dreams/visions as a teenager that set him up as a prophet leading a small group of religious followers, the literal way our faith was founded—of course members will be more susceptible to these types of claims. And the recent ramping up of changes from SLC and some of the things said has effected the timeline these fringe groups see their actions with. Don’t take this as an opportunity to do missionary work and quote articles of faith. Just help give people context to what LV & CD might have been thinking and focus on our task. Yes some of our beliefs sound out there and it’s hard to admit how easily they can be twisted. But this defensiveness and bickering needs to stop MOO

@Idaholocal, thank you for this clear reminder of the focus here in the thread which is to try and find 2 missing children. I do have to say though that the folks that have chimed in with LDS explanations and links have been very helpful - so thanks to them!

I get what you are saying about people that you see each week in your services having a range of possibly different and non-agreeing beliefs. I don't think this is necessarily unique to LDS religion so I'm sure folks here can identify with this idea even if they aren't LDS.

But given that you are local Rexburg, I'm curious if you do find it strange that CD held a leadership role in his ward and YET seemed to have this double life with ideas and beliefs associated with AVOW that are very far afield from LDS doctrine (I'm not putting LORI into this category as her status as a local member of any ward in Rexburg is unknown - do you perhaps know?). It seems like there is this range of beliefs within the LDS community that is 'ok' and then there seems to be where CD and LD went which was quite far afield. Was CD hiding his beliefs from his fellow ward members in Rexburg or Salem or wherever he attended services?

I've been trying to figure out if CD did this all quite intentionally in terms being active in his role and supporting his wife with her re-baptizing efforts etc., to fit into his local Rexburg community, maintain his publishing business to support his family and possibly even deceive his wife of many years (although this is speculation on my part as we don't really know what TD beliefs might be).

From what we have learned about Rexburg is that its over 90% LDS in terms of population. So, it kinda makes sense that CD wanted to fit in and wanted to be part of his local LDS ward etc. and he seemed to want this connection also for his family etc.

I do wonder though how many other local folks that could be in your weekly services could also be part of such groups as AVOW and yet continue to show up and be members in good standing of their local wards for purposes of social/community reasons? It almost seems like there is this 'don't ask, don't tell' mentality on some of these more fringe beliefs that if the local leadership knew about might get more folks ex-ed. I just wonder how many local folks in his ward understood precisely where CD was in terms of his beliefs? Or, was it all hidden and so a total surprise for local ward members to all the sudden see CD become a worldwide news topic?

I know this won't help find the children but it might help understand more about Chad and where he might be hiding with Lori and also how many others perhaps could be supporting them or even with them? Do we know where Melani and her new husband are as they are local Rexburg - are they on the run with Chad and Lori?

MOO

 

[Spudbear]

Did I read mention that they thought the end of the world was July 2020? Seems like things really ramped up starting in July 2019. Then in a few months span you have Charles’ murder, disappearance (and unknown status) of the 2 kids, Tammy’s paint gun incident, Brandon’s attempted shooting, Tammy’s likely murder, Lori and Melani’s quick marriages, Alex’s suspicious death, Lori and Chad on the run.

MOO but I can see a scenario where Chad and Lori correspond, talk, and plan for the end of the world, which includes the two of them running off together. Chad perhaps thinks this is more fantasy but it becomes very real for Lori. Lori sets things in motion by manipulating Alex into shooting Charles. She is now single and the pressure is on Chad. The kids are disappeared because they saw Charles was not killed in self defense. Chad begins to use his convenient “visions” to “foresee” Tammy’s death. Either he finally goes through with it or Lori takes the lead (possibly planning the paint gun incident and Brandon’s shooting to free up Melani as well), paving the way for a quick marriage. Either Alex knew too much, was willing to talk, or was abandoned when they split town and facing the end of the world took his life.

I suspect Joseph’s earlier death was unrelated but possibly also orchestrated by Lori - a starting place for homicidal tendencies which corresponds with the 1.5 year timeframe from when Lori “changed” per reports from family. Again, MOO.

Does anyone know if Melani and her new husband are also missing?

I feel this is a very likely scenario. I think it likely started a year prior with Joe Ryan’s death. It seems like Tammy was a well liked, down to earth woman, MOO but I wonder if Tammy pushed back on some of his delusions and view of himself, and at the same time Lori was in Chad’s ear giving him the validation he craved, and that is when Chads “visions of Tammys death” began.

 

[renarde]

I suspect Lori and Chad left that apartment shortly after law enforcement showed up on the 11/26. I expect they stayed the night elsewhere and then left early the next day - at least out of the county, if not out of the state. Whether they went to Las Vegas or not isn't known yet but based on the circumstance and which players were where at the time it seems very possible to me that they did go to Las Vegas.

They at least could've left their own cars behind, and gotten a ride from... someone else who was also leaving town. This would explain why Rexburg PD didn't feel the need to give us a description of their (Chad and Lori's) vehicles, as they (the cars) were probably left in Rexburg.

 

[janewall]

I mentioned in my explanation of this practice that I know there has been some controversy about them baptizing groups of dead people, I think (but could be remembering wrong) that they were people killed in the holocaust. While the focus is largely on relatives for which genealogy has been done, I believe they have also done this for historically significant figures like the founding fathers and presidents of the US. I think I've even heard Hitler mentioned which makes me wonder if this means he'll dodge hell in Mormon belief if he accepts the baptism.

The Mormon leaders (don't remember if past, like Joseph Smith/Brigham Young) or more recent have said that the second coming can't happen until this has been done for everyone who has ever lived and never had the chance to become a Mormon while on earth.

My feeling is that while I get people objecting to "their people" being baptized in proxy, if they don't believe in Mormonism, why does it matter?

It's always bothered me although I am not a Mormon believer, for the reason that many of my known ancestors were prominent ministers in their time, including some who could be considered very early European settlers (@1630) and even founding fathers. It seems disrespectful to me that these people's strongly held religious principles, which they left their homelands in order to live by and found new communities on, can be so easily disregarded by a belief system with its own quite devastating experience of religious persecution and suppression.

It's not that I believe much of what my ancestors believed, so much as I respect the integrity with which they tried to live their convictions, and the heavy investment they made throughout their lives to create a society where others of diverse beliefs can do likewise. It's also why I will not put my own genealogical research on websites such as ancestry.com which allow public access.

 

[tresir2012]

Something else from Chad's blog that bothers me is this, he had a blog entry where is say he had a dream his youngest child would get killed by a car in the K-Mart parking lot. So he called Tammy and she was going to K-Mart with the kids, so he had her come pick him up at work and he carried their child into the store himself. He talked in the blog about his belief that he could change the time line by his actions. Then, when he expressed to our famous author friend that Tammy was going to die, not one word did he say or action did he take to stop that happening. So which is it Chad, you can change timelines or not? MOO, I think there was no dream, Chad wanted Tammy dead. I certainly think our famous author bringing this up has done Chad no favors.

He could have just stopped her shopping at K Mart.

 

[BigAl16]

However, once a person has died, unless they are someone as evil as Hitler, won't they have already entered Heaven via their own religion? So I don't really see the point of baptizing dead relatives again.
If the religious posts end up too numerous perhaps a sub thread for LDS queries would be a possibility.

I was straightened out above regarding Hitler.

But as for entering heaven via their own religion, not exactly, at least according to Mormon belief. It gets a little tricky here though. The 3 levels of heaven have been mentioned in other posts. Going to hell takes some serious sinning (murder, I think adultery, and a few other more serious sins). The lowest degree of heaven is essentially like earth today and the vast majority of people will end up there . But to get to the highest of the 3 you have to be not only a Mormon in good standing, but done some specific things (temple marriage being one of them, I think). I don't remember for sure, but think you need to be Mormon to get to the middle level as well.

 

[tresir2012]

Something else from Chad's blog that bothers me is this, he had a blog entry where is say he had a dream his youngest child would get killed by a car in the K-Mart parking lot. So he called Tammy and she was going to K-Mart with the kids, so he had her come pick him up at work and he carried their child into the store himself. He talked in the blog about his belief that he could change the time line by his actions. Then, when he expressed to our famous author friend that Tammy was going to die, not one word did he say or action did he take to stop that happening. So which is it Chad, you can change timelines or not? MOO, I think there was no dream, Chad wanted Tammy dead. I certainly think our famous author bringing this up has done Chad no favors.

He could have just stopped her shopping at K Mart.

 

[janewall]

DBM - duplicate post

 

[Gardener1850]

Hmm, is there a "latest update timeline" from the first post in the thread that can be thrown up again? Thank goodness for the timeline for this case at WS.

I'm working on a revision of the original but I probably won't be able to post it until later tonight or Sunday evening. Too much new info came out Friday to do a quick revision/addition and I'm busy with family events this weekend. If you want to catch up on the latest I suggest reading the media thread: ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *MEDIA MAPS TIMELINE* NO DISCUSSION

 

[Spudbear]

And my thoughts on the Daybell children. They were a close knit family in a close knit community for many years. IF Chad did have an undiagnosed mental illness, that would have been their normal. So the lies and excuses their father may be giving them in response to this situation may feel almost normal to other scenarios they’ve faced over the years. Especially with his involvement in thIs LDS fringe group.

As an adult child of a narcissistic parent, it takes a lot to remove yourself from the disruption and dysfunction that is engrained in the family dynamic.

 

[mickey2942]

They at least could've left their own cars behind, and gotten a ride from... someone else who was also leaving town. This would explain why Rexburg PD didn't feel the need to give us a description of their (Chad and Lori's) vehicles, as they (the cars) were probably left in Rexburg.

I suppose so, that area, and Southern Utah, Northern Arizona have plenty of folks who have similar "Off the Track" LDS beliefs.

Chad and Lori are both very charismatic, I can easily see how they could dupe innocent people into protecting and hiding them.

 

[afitzy]

Also while I'm addressing beliefs and which ones are out there in cult land, and which are mainstream LDS - There is ZERO doctrine about levels of evil spirits, or levels of outer darkness (some call that hell). However, I agree with the poster pages back that it's a reasonable jump for Lori to make given that I can guess what she's been reading and where that idea came from. There are many who either claim to have more information than the leader of the church, or who want to speculate on things because it's interesting. A lot of them end up on the outside of the church if they aren't careful, but some remain inside, just on the outer edges in "iffy" land. There are books circulating in these groups of preppers about evil spirits and information about them. I've read one of these books and I think the author ended up outside the church in the end. However, that's where I think she's getting these concepts.

Just to state it again - you can tag me in anything you have questions about regarding LDS doctrine and where something Chad or Lori have said has come from. I'm in prepping groups myself, but I'm not involved in AVOW, or PAP or any cultish behavior... I know some of those who are, and I know what a lot of their reading materials are. If it helps, I can clarify anything as to whether it's a mainstream LDS belief, or whether it's on the fringes... or simply WAY out in la la land.

Thanks for this!

Would you expect these people that are part of AVOW to centralise or settle together as the end of the world approaches? Or, would these AVOW members stay wherever they lived and be in remote contact with CD etc.?

Could CD and LD have been working to set up a place for people to congregate as a community? Or does it seem more likely that they are traveling around together seeking shelter from people sympathetic to their cause?

Even though so much time has passed since CD and LD left Rexburg, I do think its odd that LE never released information on where they might have been headed, what they were driving, whether they were together or if they escaped by plane? I would think with CCTV and traffic cams that this information is available. I remain confused as to how the public can help as so little information has been made available other than photographs of the missing people? Could LE know precisely where CD and LD are located but know that the children aren't with them and that is why details on finding CD and LD aren't forthcoming? The territory involved where the 2 missing children could be is huge and so little direction has been provided on where to look? Simply seems confusing for a true missing case IMO.

MOO

 

[LHS]

It's always bothered me although I am not a Mormon believer, for the reason that many of my known ancestors were prominent ministers in their time, including some who could be considered very early European settlers (@1630) and even founding fathers. It seems disrespectful to me that these people's strongly held religious principles, which they left their homelands in order to live by and found new communities on, can be so easily disregarded by a belief system with its own quite devastating experience of religious persecution and suppression.

It's not that I believe much of what my ancestors believed, so much as I respect the integrity with which they tried to live their convictions, and the heavy investment they made throughout their lives to create a society where others of diverse beliefs can do likewise. It's also why I will not put my own genealogical research on websites such as ancestry.com which allow public access.

Well as I've said already, even if they were baptized by proxy, they are not automatically a different faith. They may choose to keep their faith and not accept the work done for them. It's simply and offered option. And what you do with your own research is entirely up to you. I respect that.

Thanks for this!

Would you expect these people that are part of AVOW to centralise or settle together as the end of the world approaches? Or, would these AVOW members stay wherever they lived and be in remote contact with CD etc.?

Could CD and LD have been working to set up a place for people to congregate as a community? Or does it seem more likely that they are traveling around together seeking shelter from people sympathetic to their cause?

Even though so much time has passed since CD and LD left Rexburg, I do think its odd that LE never released information on where they might have been headed, what they were driving, whether they were together or if they escaped by plane? I would think with CCTV and traffic cams that this information is available. I remain confused as to how the public can help as so little information has been made available other than photographs of the missing people? Could LE know precisely where CD and LD are located but know that the children aren't with them and that is why details on finding CD and LD aren't forthcoming? The territory involved where the 2 missing children could be is huge and so little direction has been provided on where to look? Simply seems confusing for a true missing case IMO.

MOO

There have been movements of people in these groups like AVOW. Some are temporary and go "practice camping" as if they were being "called out". Others get promptings to move to places of safety that Chad's most prominent author has so often referred to for the "special elite who have all their food storage". So yes, sometimes they do end up in the same places, and Rexburg is one of those designated places, as is Cache Valley Utah and some others.

Yes they could have been working on preparing a place to congregate for like minded pople. I see that as a distinct possiblity but I have no evidence to really say one way or another. I believe Chad referenced moving to Rexburg was based on a dream/vision he had and Tammy was not really thrilled at that idea. I'm fairly certain this is based on said prominent author.

I've seen information third hand about a sighting of them that I can't speak about here but I'm pretty sure LE knows where CD and LV actually are. They are more concerned with finding the kids at this point, and since LE have said that they see that Tammy's death and the children's disappearance is connected, I think that's where they are focused right now and are just keeping tabs on the couple.

Yes the area between Idaho and Arizona is so huge that it spans the entire North to South distance of the US. It's crazy big with a whole lot of nothing in it. It's a worry for sure. I can't get a sinking feeling out of my head regarding this turning out like Susan Powell.

 

[Mentalheadslap2018]

In the lds faith we believe in performing ordinance work, such as baptism, for those who died without having the opportunity in this life. The person can choose to accept the work or reject it, Tammy was going genealogy work, which is common for mainstream lds, to identify ancestors to then perform ordinances for them, a noble pastime. But Chad is manipulative, using a spiritual visit from a dead relative to guilt tammy into giving up her computer game that he didn't like her playing. I think it's an example of his selfish, manipulative nature moo. He's sounds controlling. I hope my explanation helps, if not you can look for more detailed explanation online.

What a wonderful and honorable thing for Tammy to work on.