IDI and RDI, what do they agree upon?

[BBB167893]

This isn't particularly an RDI or IDI issue, so I'll post it here in case someone wants to comment.

I was originally prepared to believe that the head bash preceded the strangle, but I'm really struggling to understand how such a massive head injury could leave absolutely no outward signs at all. No blood, no bruise, no swelling. Every parent knows that even if a kid falls off a bike onto a hard surface, an 'egg' comes up straight away. To split the skull and leave no mark at all is amazing. The investigator present at the PM said they were surprised when they discovered the head injury. The only conclusion I can come to is that she was not alive when it happened.

Problem with that, MurriFlower, is that most kids who fall off of their bikes usually don't go into massive shock. Severe shock can greatly lessen the functions of the body. Moreover, according to the autopsy, JB's brain was so swollen that it was pressing against the sides of her skull. That's can't happen in a dead person and it takes a fair amount of time. 10 minutes to an hour, according to most forensic estimates. What's more, someone already did comment on it: Denver neurosurgeon Kerry Brega, who said, "we see skull fractures without massive bleeding all the time, and they didn't get strangled on the way in."

 

[MurriFlower]

Problem with that, MurriFlower, is that most kids who fall off of their bikes usually don't go into massive shock. Severe shock can greatly lessen the functions of the body. Moreover, according to the autopsy, JB's brain was so swollen that it was pressing against the sides of her skull. That's can't happen in a dead person and it takes a fair amount of time. 10 minutes to an hour, according to most forensic estimates. What's more, someone already did comment on it: Denver neurosurgeon Kerry Brega, who said, "we see skull fractures without massive bleeding all the time, and they didn't get strangled on the way in."

I'm not sure which part of the autopsy says that JBR's "brain was so swollen that it was pressing against the sides of her skull". Could you please point it out to me?

What I do not understand is that there was no external sign of the injury. Hey, the skin wasn't even broken! "No scalp trauma was identified". It was only on reflection of the scalp that "an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage" was noted. The autopsy revealed scratches measuring down to one-sixteenth by one-sixteenth of an inch, but there was no evidence of a skull fracture which measured 8.5 inches in length! How so?

 

[BBB167893]

I'm not sure which part of the autopsy says that JBR's "brain was so swollen that it was pressing against the sides of her skull". Could you please point it out to me?

No sweat. Narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. Now, most people don't know what that means. Well, if you look at the human brain, it has a very distinct "wrinkled" appearance. Those "wrinkles" are actually where the brain has folded. The sulci are the folds themselves. "Narrowing of the sulci" means that the brain matter has swollen so that those folds have become thinner. The gyri is the brain matter itself that is folded. "Flattening of the gyri" means that the brain had swollen so that the gyri were flattening against the interior of the skull.

What I do not understand is that there was no external sign of the injury. Hey, the skin wasn't even broken! "No scalp trauma was identified". It was only on reflection of the scalp that "an extensive area of scalp hemorrhage" was noted. The autopsy revealed scratches measuring down to one-sixteenth by one-sixteenth of an inch, but there was no evidence of a skull fracture which measured 8.5 inches in length! How so?

Well, one has to do with physics, the other with bodily reaction. First of all, breaking bones without breaking the skin is relatively easy, since flesh has a lot more given than bone. So, if the object in question has a relatively large surface area and was more-or-less rounded, the chances would be fair. And if there is padding involved, that adds a whole new dimension to the game. Add to that force, angle, and any other of a hundred different factors.

Secondly, in order for an external sign to appear (whether it be a bruise or a bump or the like), one has to consider the body's defense systems at work. But what if the body were in a state of trauma-induced hibernation, known as shock? Metabolic functions would be greatly reduced.

 

[DeeDee249]

When the autopsy noted "no evidence of organization", that meant that the body's usual responses to such injury (swelling, the rush of white blood cells to the area, etc.) had not had time to "organize" or proceed. This is what led noted pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht, who also felt the head bash came first, to state that he felt JB died relatively soon after that head bash. This would not have prevented the petechiae from forming due to the strangulation, there was plenty of time for the strangulation to follow the head bash, as death may have taken UP TO an hour. Not only would JB have been rendered unconscious by such a severe blow, but she may have slipped into a coma as well, slowing the body's responses even more.
If the bludgeon was the flashlight, as many (including me) feel, it probably wouldn't have broken the skin. The light itself had a rubberized coating, and the edge of the head of it wasn't sharp. If it was brought down on her in the usual way (in an arc) it was the edge that likely came into contact with her skull.

 

[MurriFlower]

No sweat. Narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. Now, most people don't know what that means. Well, if you look at the human brain, it has a very distinct "wrinkled" appearance. Those "wrinkles" are actually where the brain has folded. The sulci are the folds themselves. "Narrowing of the sulci" means that the brain matter has swollen so that those folds have become thinner. The gyri is the brain matter itself that is folded. "Flattening of the gyri" means that the brain had swollen so that the gyri were flattening against the interior of the skull.

Thanks for that SD.

The quote is actually, "Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified."

Wouldn't you have thought that such an injury would induce massive swelling of the brain if nothing else?

I can see I need to do more research into this - something's not right IMO.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks for that SD.

You're most welcome.

The quote is actually, "Mild narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflammation is identified."

Wouldn't you have thought that such an injury would induce massive swelling of the brain if nothing else?

That depends on a few different factors: how soon did death overtake the victim, how shock figures into it, etc.

I can see I need to do more research into this - something's not right IMO.

You said it.

 

[MurriFlower]

When the autopsy noted "no evidence of organization", that meant that the body's usual responses to such injury (swelling, the rush of white blood cells to the area, etc.) had not had time to "organize" or proceed. This is what led noted pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht, who also felt the head bash came first, to state that he felt JB died relatively soon after that head bash. This would not have prevented the petechiae from forming due to the strangulation, there was plenty of time for the strangulation to follow the head bash, as death may have taken UP TO an hour. Not only would JB have been rendered unconscious by such a severe blow, but she may have slipped into a coma as well, slowing the body's responses even more.
If the bludgeon was the flashlight, as many (including me) feel, it probably wouldn't have broken the skin. The light itself had a rubberized coating, and the edge of the head of it wasn't sharp. If it was brought down on her in the usual way (in an arc) it was the edge that likely came into contact with her skull.

Or maybe even the two were simultaneous. The other difficulty I have always had with the hitting with something (the flashlight etc) is that those sorts of injuries are rarely a 'once' thing. If you're angry enough to strike with something, then once is not enough, you don't need to strangle later to make sure! Strangling takes planning and is too slow when a few more blows will finish the job. No, I'm still thinking about this.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Or maybe even the two were simultaneous. The other difficulty I have always had with the hitting with something (the flashlight etc) is that those sorts of injuries are rarely a 'once' thing. If you're angry enough to strike with something, then once is not enough, you don't need to strangle later to make sure! Strangling takes planning and is too slow when a few more blows will finish the job. No, I'm still thinking about this.

I believe that either this intruder thought to 'knock out' JBR with a blow to the head early on, or actually used the headblow in conjunction with the strangulation to prevent JBR from being revived after they left. This has been done before (the unsolved murder of actor Bob Crane, for example).

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

Thank you to everyone who is posting on this thread. Thank you for all the information. I was wondering if there is a statute of limitations(maybe its not called that)or anything on the Grand Jury information?

Like, after people have passed that had to do with this case, will that ever be information for the history books?

...JW...(just wondering)

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

Also, I had the idea that maybe it is both? Maybe a IDI and then for their own reasons(molestation?)the Ramsey's did their own covering up?

What if the Ramsey's found the note earlier, found JB's body and realized people would know she had been being molested(by someone in the family or whoever but it was being "allowed") and so they just did the "covering up" of that aspect but did not do the whole crime.

...js...

 

[DeeDee249]

Or maybe even the two were simultaneous. The other difficulty I have always had with the hitting with something (the flashlight etc) is that those sorts of injuries are rarely a 'once' thing. If you're angry enough to strike with something, then once is not enough, you don't need to strangle later to make sure! Strangling takes planning and is too slow when a few more blows will finish the job. No, I'm still thinking about this.

Not if she immediately collapsed. That would probably have caused whoever hit her to stop. If there had been repeated blows, there would be repeated injuries, as it is unlikely that the bludgeon would contact the skull in the exact same spot each time. And if she collapsed, she would not have been standing up, as was likely the case with the first blow- so the impact would be different.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hello WS

Thank you to everyone who is posting on this thread. Thank you for all the information. I was wondering if there is a statute of limitations(maybe its not called that)or anything on the Grand Jury information?

Like, after people have passed that had to do with this case, will that ever be information for the history books?

...JW...(just wondering)

There is no statute of limitations on murder in ANY state. But there would have to be new evidence, or old evidence that yielded new information, for the case to proceed to an arrest or indictment.
But what I think you are asking is this: (correct me if I am wrong) is there a span of time after which the Grand Jury testimony can be made public?

The information given to this GJ was sealed, and because any unsolved murder is technically considered an open case for as long as it remains unsolved, it is not likely to be made available to the public, even under the Freedom of Information Act.

 

[Chiquita71]

Thank you DeeDee

Yes, that is what I was asking. Thank you!

So, this case is in limbo? I remember earlier when I first came to WS, some were talking about new LE working on this case? But, I may be very confused about that...

On Cold Case Files(and The Investigators), the real shows not the drama shows, when new officers come along and take the case they get to go through all of the old evidence.

Could or would or did or has that ever happened in this case? Does it have to become a "cold case" first? What makes a case an "unresolved murder" vs. a "cold case?"

I am confused all over websleuths today. I have really hit a wall in my understanding of how our LE and law deal with crime of this nature(meaning murder). Between this case, Haleigh and Caylee...

It is just an opinion I am forming but humanity needs to rethink what LE needs to do their job better(I find no fault with individual LE, I am speaking of the system in general) and to rethink the power lawyers have. I don't have any answers and I know what I have just said probably falls under the favorite adult catch-all "it's not that easy, simple" but its how I feel right now.

I know we are not in a perfect world...but, what could it hurt but to bring justice for JB: to let the information/evidence be seen by new officers, or LE outside of those that originally had the case? I'm just babbling...I don't expect you guys to answer this stuff. I get that there are answers for all of this, (I need to do more reading) but none of them seem right or fair. IMHO.

If I had been accused of hurting my daughter the way the Ramsey's did, I would beg for my day in court. I would want to show everyone in the world I did not murder my child. IMO.

:twocents:

 

[MurriFlower]

I think that both RDI and IDI struggle with the pineapple.

RDI says as PR lied about JBR being asleep when she arrived home and also about her not waking during the night, so she had to also lie about the pineapple. Well, IF JBR was awake then there was no reason to lie. IF JBR awoke in the night and was hungry, that does not point to her being killed by PR/JR/BR either. So regardless of how they dismiss it, it remains a mystery.

IDI can't think of any reason why an intruder would feed pineapple. The gang of paedophiles, SFF/terrorists, disgrundled employee/neighbour/friend - none of it fits with the pineapple.

My personal theory, (not strictly IDI) of a close friend/neighbour/employee (that is someone familiar with JBR and the house) who was trying to punish JR as well as extort money (intending to drug and hide JBR in the crawl space until the money was paid) fits with the pineapple EXCEPT that it should have contained a drug or sedative. However, the autopsy report shows no drugs detected. So could there have been anything administered to JBR in the pineapple that would not show up but could render her unconscious or at least compliant? Asprin? Paracetemol? Cough mixture? Something simple and unremarkable or undetectable? Oh and as an afterthought, what about alcohol?

 

[Chiquita71]

I think that both RDI and IDI struggle with the pineapple.

RDI says as PR lied about JBR being asleep when she arrived home and also about her not waking during the night, so she had to also lie about the pineapple. Well, IF JBR was awake then there was no reason to lie. IF JBR awoke in the night and was hungry, that does not point to her being killed by PR/JR/BR either. So regardless of how they dismiss it, it remains a mystery.

IDI can't think of any reason why an intruder would feed pineapple. The gang of paedophiles, SFF/terrorists, disgrundled employee/neighbour/friend - none of it fits with the pineapple.

My personal theory, (not strictly IDI) of a close friend/neighbour/employee (that is someone familiar with JBR and the house) who was trying to punish JR as well as extort money (intending to drug and hide JBR in the crawl space until the money was paid) fits with the pineapple EXCEPT that it should have contained a drug or sedative. However, the autopsy report shows no drugs detected. So could there have been anything administered to JBR in the pineapple that would not show up but could render her unconscious or at least compliant? Asprin? Paracetemol? Cough mixture? Something simple and unremarkable or undetectable?

Quote Respect MurriFlower

When you bring up someone trying to "frame" or get to or at John...I can go there. This might be reason the Ramsey's acted the way they did, because that person really did have something on him.

But, I don't like the idea of someone coming in that window, I saw Schmit(sp?)come through it in that video and the edits bother me. He does not show himself really entering(easily)through that window. BUT. Someone could have come through that window, it is a window and someone could have come through it. And, whoever wrote that note and got the pineapple, and killed JB had to have known the Ramsey's or have been comfortable being in their house.

Maybe John and Patsy knew the intruder did not come in the window but they wanted to make it seem like it was someone they did not know? Or, for some reason they wanted people to think it was through the window? (Going with the idea they really didn't have anything to do with JB's actual death but had to cover for the killer)

Whether I am being RDI or IDI, I think the author of the RN is a lunatic. (Excuse my lack of professional credentials or use of tactful language). Whether this person was personally involved with the Ramsey's or not, they seem to feel they know them quite well.

When I am sure I am RDI, I think about them calling 911 and if I was guilty I would not have called 911 at all. John had his own plane, they could have loaded JB's body(make it seem like she was asleep)and make a stop somewhere before meeting the older kids in Michigan(?) Maybe then they could call 911 and say she was kidnapped.

I have said before that I am RDI, but only because it is more satisfying than IDI for my needs. BUT. There are many things that I have to give/agree with IDI and so I sit in confusion.

FWIW: The pineapple and the housekeeper talking about the knife are two major things that bolster my feelings that Patsy (on accident or on purpose) hurt JB. I know there are theories and threads that discuss Patsy's mental state and I don't know if it has been said like this before but: maybe Patsy had split personalities? Like, truly had multiple personalities as in the clinical sense.

ETA: I am aware of SD's "loved to death" theory and I it makes total sense to me. It is my failing that I am not satisfied. And, so I know many people before me have informed theories regarding Patsy's mental state.

To let you know: I am wanting to see if IDI and RDI both agree that JB had previous sexual trauma. My understanding is that there is evidence of that, this does not mean it was anyone in the Ramsey family. I just feel I have never gotten "one" answer on the sexual abuse.

Just sleuthing, I am here to be corrected. TIA.

:cow:

 

[DeeDee249]

No. In the case of a homicide, especially a child homicide, the toxicology tests would show everything- aspirin, over the counter meds, anything.

The pineapple was likely as much a surprise to the parents as the skull fracture was to the coroner, not that they didn't know about it, but that it showed up in the autopsy. People just don't realize how much can be determined.

 

[MurriFlower]

When you bring up someone trying to "frame" or get to or at John...I can go there. This might be reason the Ramsey's acted the way they did, because that person really did have something on him.

Yes, the 'practice' RN indicates that it was JR who was the 'target', as the Mr and Mrs R was disregarded.

But, I don't like the idea of someone coming in that window, I saw Schmit(sp?)come through it in that video and the edits bother me. He does not show himself really entering(easily)through that window. BUT. Someone could have come through that window, it is a window and someone could have come through it. And, whoever wrote that note and got the pineapple, and killed JB had to have known the Ramsey's or have been comfortable being in their house.

No, I definately think the person was a trusted key holder. But JR got in that way when he lost his key and I don't expect he was agile either.

Maybe John and Patsy knew the intruder did not come in the window but they wanted to make it seem like it was someone they did not know? Or, for some reason they wanted people to think it was through the window? (Going with the idea they really didn't have anything to do with JB's actual death but had to cover for the killer)

No, I now think that the window might have just been used to pass things through. Someone with a key can come and go through doors, but wouldn't necessarily want to carry stuff all the way through the house.

Whether I am being RDI or IDI, I think the author of the RN is a lunatic. (Excuse my lack of professional credentials or use of tactful language). Whether this person was personally involved with the Ramsey's or not, they seem to feel they know them quite well.

Yes, it seems a very idiotic thing to do. I think there is no doubt that they knew JR at the very least and I suspect he probably also has a pretty good idea who wrote the RN. If author is the actual killer, or if the killer was an accomplice, I'm not sure. Perhaps they were psychotic and may have been drunk and/or on drugs as well.

When I am sure I am RDI, I think about them calling 911 and if I was guilty I would not have called 911 at all. John had his own plane, they could have loaded JB's body(make it seem like she was asleep)and make a stop somewhere before meeting the older kids in Michigan(?) Maybe then they could call 911 and say she was kidnapped.

The fact that no-one made any attempt to remove the body from the house is the main reason I don't believe RDI. Nor was it a kidnapping gone wrong.

I have said before that I am RDI, but only because it is more satisfying than IDI for my needs. BUT. There are many things that I have to give/agree with IDI and so I sit in confusion.

I think there is an alternative, somewhere between RDI and IDI. Perhaps we can think of an appropriate acronym.

FWIW: The pineapple and the housekeeper talking about the knife are two major things that bolster my feelings that Patsy (on accident or on purpose) hurt JB. I know there are theories and threads that discuss Patsy's mental state and I don't know if it has been said like this before but: maybe Patsy had split personalities? Like, truly had multiple personalities as in the clinical sense.

ETA: I am aware of SD's "loved to death" theory and I it makes total sense to me. It is my failing that I am not satisfied. And, so I know many people before me have informed theories regarding Patsy's mental state.

To let you know: I am wanting to see if IDI and RDI both agree that JB had previous sexual trauma. My understanding is that there is evidence of that, this does not mean it was anyone in the Ramsey family. I just feel I have never gotten "one" answer on the sexual abuse.

Ah yes, the housekeeper. I don't believe a word she says. I've just realised that the satisfying thing about not being RDI is that I can, if I wish, believe everything PR and JR said. In fact, aside from honest mistakes anyone can make about things that aren't important until after and accounting for the trauma of the event itself causing memory problems, I'm happy to take it as 'gospel', especially PR's and with qualifications JR's. So, where it conflicts with others, then IMO it is they that lie. Take the Swiss Army Knife for example. It seems that only LPH and PR knew where it was (and I'm not confident PR knew either), BR wouldn't have known as it was 'taken and hidden' from him by LPH, according to her due to the 'whittling'. Was the SAK found actually BR's, as his had his name on it? If you think LPH was a 'saint' read this http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3952&pp=12 which is apparently Chapter one of her 'unpublished book'. Quite a change from her 'Patsy was warm and kind. Just a sweet person' (PMPT Page 198-202). The author of this isn't someone I'd want taking care of my 6yo daughter!!

Just sleuthing, I am here to be corrected. TIA.

Yes, it's a cross we have to bear LOL.

 

[MurriFlower]

I believe that either this intruder thought to 'knock out' JBR with a blow to the head early on, or actually used the headblow in conjunction with the strangulation to prevent JBR from being revived after they left. This has been done before (the unsolved murder of actor Bob Crane, for example).

Actually this Bob Crane thing is interesting. I guess it's just the movie/TV references in the RN and his death in a similar fashion. Can't help wondering though....

It's actually the reason I questioned the head bash prior to strangulation as there was no blood or outward sign on JBR, however if you see the crime scene photos of the Bob Crane murder, there is LOTS of blood.

 

[madeleine]

Ah yes, the housekeeper. I don't believe a word she says. I've just realised that the satisfying thing about not being RDI is that I can, if I wish, believe everything PR and JR said. In fact, aside from honest mistakes anyone can make about things that aren't important until after and accounting for the trauma of the event itself causing memory problems, I'm happy to take it as 'gospel', especially PR's and with qualifications JR's. So, where it conflicts with others, then IMO it is they that lie. Take the Swiss Army Knife for example. It seems that only LPH and PR knew where it was (and I'm not confident PR knew either), BR wouldn't have known as it was 'taken and hidden' from him by LPH, according to her due to the 'whittling'. Was the SAK found actually BR's, as his had his name on it? If you think LPH was a 'saint' read this http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3952&pp=12 which is apparently Chapter one of her 'unpublished book'. Quite a change from her 'Patsy was warm and kind. Just a sweet person' (PMPT Page 198-202). The author of this isn't someone I'd want taking care of my 6yo daughter!!

ITA.
But she ,like Fleet White,turned out to be perfect weapons against the Ramsey's so they turned from suspects into key witnesses.Kinda hard to swallow what these kind of people have to say.I kinda changed my views after going back to try and figure out how this all started,especially who were the first ones to point fingers at the Ramsey's and based on what.I ended up completely agreeing with the fact that they lawyered up immediately.What happened there (and this is not my opinion,I can back up with links and statements everything I say here).An FBI agent arrives at the scene and instantly tells LE to look at the parents because the RN is bogus (without even being a handwriting/linguisitc expert).Then this superwoman L.Arndt looks into JR's eyes and knows who the killer is.Then ST and his crew find a pack of diapers and wonder how this can be connected to the murder.One of the suspects suddenly becomes a key witness and friends with the lead detective.I won't mention the leaks because that would be only a guess but I guess everybody can put 2 and 2 together.And there's somuch more.If I changed my views it wasn't because of the DNA but because I took a second look at things I didn't wanna see before and I was wrong so I decided to check every side of this story.

 

[MurriFlower]

ITA.
But she ,like Fleet White,turned out to be perfect weapons against the Ramsey's so they turned from suspects into key witnesses.Kinda hard to swallow what these kind of people have to say.I kinda changed my views after going back to try and figure out how this all started,especially who were the first ones to point fingers at the Ramsey's and based on what.I ended up completely agreeing with the fact that they lawyered up immediately.What happened there (and this is not my opinion,I can back up with links and statements everything I say here).An FBI agent arrives at the scene and instantly tells LE to look at the parents because the RN is bogus (without even being a handwriting/linguisitc expert).Then this superwoman L.Arndt looks into JR's eyes and knows who the killer is.Then ST and his crew find a pack of diapers and wonder how this can be connected to the murder.One of the suspects suddenly becomes a key witness and friends with the lead detective.I won't mention the leaks because that would be only a guess but I guess everybody can put 2 and 2 together.And there's somuch more.If I changed my views it wasn't because of the DNA but because I took a second look at things I didn't wanna see before and I was wrong so I decided to check every side of this story.

Yes of course, if you're RDI the lawyering up just confirmed your suspicions about their guilt. If you're not - well it makes a ton of sense. I'm sure JR could see pretty early on what was happening. PR was so upset she needed advice on what to and not to say. This is great (for me) cause I suspect the lawyers advised 'now if you know something for sure, then say so. If you don't know, then say so. If you aren't sure, then don't try to say something just to please them'. That's what I mean about what she said being 'gospel'. We all say things at times, especially when under pressure, that we later wish we had thought more about. PR had been warned about this and didn't make that mistake (well not too often). This made her look to be a bit uncooperative (interpreted as lying also). While RDI look at other's statements and say 'well PR must have been lying because someone else said something different', I look at it the opposite way, cause I'm confident they didn't do it.

Now I just wish JR and PR had noticed more about what went on around them. I also wish we had more info about what BR said. You know, kids notice more than we give them credit for.