IDIs On This Forum?

[Ames]

and yet while he wore gloves for the RN and FL...he apparently was careless and took them off...thus the palm print on the WC door ! I know that was proven to be Melinda's,but it never fit the scerario anyway.It could have been anyone's,considering all the ppl that went thru that house.

Well, supposedly he DID NOT wear gloves when he used the flashlight, or else he wouldn't have had to wipe it clean...and the batteries too. SOOOO...he used gloves to write the RN, but, took them off to use the flashlight. Does anybody know if that Sharpie Pen was ever tested for fingerprints??

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, he was in a little bouncy seat, beside of her bed....(so she said). Yes, she was a waitress, and had alot of friends and customers sticking up for her. One lady said that everytime she went into the restaurant where she worked, she always asked for her table. I SAY...SO THE HECK WHAT!!!! That doesn't mean that she KNEW the woman....or how she treated her baby at home. It makes me so mad, when people that barely even know somebody...or they know them from work...and have no idea what their family life is like....say..." This is such a shock, I would never have thought that they would have done that"....or...."My family and I frequent the restuarant where she works, and she would NEVER EVER hurt her baby". There was marks on the baby's face, and when the jury was deadlocked at the first trial...this one stupid woman said..."I just can't believe that a mother would do this to her own child". SOUND FAMILIAR???

yes,sure does,I think naivety prevails in some ppl?
I just have a very difficult time w. these scenarios,b/c as they say,a murder is usually as it seems.
I think any reasonable parent would do the right thing and call 911...to heck w myself at the moment..maybe the child won't die after all.And I'd do anything to save him.I just think any loving parent would be in denial that death did definitely occur,and would still hold out some hope..call 911...do CPR on the baby...and the same w. JB?wouldn't they have been in denial and called 911 anyway,*if they didn't want her dead?? shouldn't they have thought surgery/med intervention might save her?? and wouldn't they have held out hope and thought maybe she wouldn't have remembered after all that someone roughed her up? I'm assuming JR at the least would have known that amnesia is a common event surrounding head injuries,if he read crime books.

 

[JMO8778]

She actually said to me, when my first daughter was born..."Now, when she gets about four or five, none of your relatives will want anything to do with her. They come around her, when she is small...because she is cute and cuddly". And SHE is the one that didn't want anything to do with her after she turned five...not, my side of the family.

sounds like she had a frame of reference to speak from then...herself ! just as perhaps Patsy did when she said 2 knew who killed her daughter,the murderer and someone that person confessed to??

 

[Ames]

yes,sure does,I think naivety prevails in some ppl?
I just have a very difficult time w. these scenarios,b/c as they say,a murder is usually as it seems.
I think any reasonable parent would do the right thing and call 911...to heck w myself at the moment..maybe the child won't die after all.And I'd do anything to save him.I just think any loving parent would be in denial that death did definitely occur,and would still hold out some hope..call 911...do CPR on the baby...and the same w. JB?wouldn't they have been in denial and called 911 anyway,*if they didn't want her dead?? shouldn't they have thought surgery/med intervention might save her?? and wouldn't they have held out hope and thought maybe she wouldn't have remembered after all that someone roughed her up? I'm assuming JR at the least would have known that amnesia is a common event surrounding head injuries,if he read crime books.

You know....call me crazy...but NOW I am wondering if was actually pre-meditated. There is a link over at FFJ, and a poster there has posted some passages, from Douglas' book, that was found on John Ramsey's nightstand....MINDHUNTER. And oh my gosh....it's like you are reading the story of JB. Just plain EERIE. I will see if HEYMOM...from FFJ, cares if I bring those passages over here. You will NOT believe your eyes....it talks about staging a crime scene, and this little boy that was wrapped lovingly in a blanket, and a lady that was killed by her husband, and he tried to make it look like a sexual assault, by pulling up her bra, and exposing her privates...but, it bothered him, so he left it like it was, but wrapped her in a comforter from the bed, and then he hid her body right outside the house. Theres ALOT more, you will have to read it to believe it....and why would John Ramsey have THAT book???

 

[JMO8778]

Yep, he was in a little bouncy seat, beside of her bed....(so she said). Yes, she was a waitress, and had alot of friends and customers sticking up for her. One lady said that everytime she went into the restaurant where she worked, she always asked for her table. I SAY...SO THE HECK WHAT!!!! That doesn't mean that she KNEW the woman....or how she treated her baby at home. It makes me so mad, when people that barely even know somebody...or they know them from work...and have no idea what their family life is like....say..." This is such a shock, I would never have thought that they would have done that"....or...."My family and I frequent the restuarant where she works, and she would NEVER EVER hurt her baby". There was marks on the baby's face, and when the jury was deadlocked at the first trial...this one stupid woman said..."I just can't believe that a mother would do this to her own child". SOUND FAMILIAR???

and the way she place the baby...to me indicted she wanted to make sure he was dead (?). it wasn't loving at all...just putting him in the river w. rocks on him. I remember from the Smith case it was said that moms who kill their children usually wrap them in plastic or put them in water..a subconcious way of 'sending them back to the womb' instead of thinking they'd killed them sort of thing I suppose.
still,it was callous and I would have thought she would have taken better care in disposing of his body if it had been an accident.

 

[Ames]

sounds like she had a frame of reference to speak from then...herself ! just as perhaps Patsy did when she said 2 knew who killed her daughter,the murdered and someone that person confessed to??

LOL...I agree.

Yeah, and why would Patsy say that 2 people knew? If the Ramsey's were innocent, then what reason would they have NOT to believe the RN...that it was a member of a small foreign faction? And by small....I am thinking maybe a little more that TWO people. And why would John blurt out...that it was an inside job. This is before the note had been analyzed. What reason, would he have to believe...that it was an inside job? If I had of found that same RN in my home, and my chld was missing....and I was INNOCENT.....I wouldn't automatically assume that #1...only two people knew who killed their daughter...and #2....that it was an inside job.

 

[JMO8778]

You know....call me crazy...but NOW I am wondering if was actually pre-meditated. There is a link over at FFJ, and a poster there has posted some passages, from Douglas' book, that was found on John Ramsey's nightstand....MINDHUNTER. And oh my gosh....it's like you are reading the story of JB. Just plain EERIE. I will see if HEYMOM...from FFJ, cares if I bring those passages over here. You will NOT believe your eyes....it talks about staging a crime scene, and this little boy that was wrapped lovingly in a blanket, and a lady that was killed by her husband, and he tried to make it look like a sexual assault, by pulling up her bra, and exposing her privates...but, it bothered him, so he left it like it was, but wrapped her in a comforter from the bed, and then he hid her body right outside the house. Theres ALOT more, you will have to read it to believe it....and why would John Ramsey have THAT book???

thx, I will.I've wondered that myself.and ST says there were whole shelves of books that were overlooked in JR's study.to me that seemed like a hint.
I thought Thomas was overly nice in his assessment of the crime scenario though (and JR should have been grateful for that !) ...by saying it was an accident,and that JR was only involved in a coverup after the fact.what if it wasn't an accident?? Mark Fuhrman doesn't think it was.and it does seem JR was involved bf LE was called.

 

[Ames]

thx, I will.I've wondered that myself.and ST says there were whole shelves of books that were overlooked in JR's study.to me that seemed like a hint.
I thought Thomas was overly nice in his assessment of the crime scenario though (and JR should have been grateful for that !) ...by saying it was an accident,and that JR was only involved in a coverup after the fact.what if it wasn't an accident?? Mark Fuhrman doesn't think it was.and it does seem JR was involved bf LE was called.

Heymom...at FFJ, says that she doesn't think that it was premediated, but that after the accident...John got some ideas from the book. This makes sense. She said that he hadn't read all of the book, but most of it.

 

[JMO8778]

Heymom...at FFJ, says that she doesn't think that it was premediated, but that after the accident...John got some ideas from the book. This makes sense. She said that he hadn't read all of the book, but most of it.

it does make sense.It was sloppily staged,so it doesn't seem planned..esp the ridiculous RN.the R's just got lucky,and with $ to boot...they got off.
I want to read that one myself.I'm curious as to what's in it.

 

[Ames]

it does make sense.It was sloppily staged,so it doesn't seem planned..esp the ridiculous RN.the R's just got lucky,and with $ to boot...they got off.
I want to read that one myself.I'm curious as to what's in it.

If you are going to be online for a few more min., HeyMom...at FFJ...gave me permission to put her posts with the passages here on WBS. So, don't go anywhere....because you have got some INTERESTING reading to do.

 

[JMO8778]

Well, supposedly he DID NOT wear gloves when he used the flashlight, or else he wouldn't have had to wipe it clean...and the batteries too. SOOOO...he used gloves to write the RN, but, took them off to use the flashlight. Does anybody know if that Sharpie Pen was ever tested for fingerprints??

surely it was..it was matched to a database of ink and was proven to be the one the RN was written with.

 

[Ames]

surely it was..it was matched to a database of ink and was proven to be the one the RN was written with.

I wonder if they found anyones...besides the Ramsey's...fingerprints on it? We all know that the only prints that would have been found...would have been the Ramsey's.

 

[Ames]

This was a high-risk crime and a low-risk victim." p. 162. He is saying it's the kind of crime that is too high-risk to the criminal to commit - the parts are not adding up to the kind of crime that is supposed to have taken place. He's not specifically talking about JonBenet, obviously, but to invade a house to kill a little girl would be extremely high-risk, I would think.

"The penetration with the umbrella and the pen were acts of sexual substitution. Quite clearly, the adult male we were looking for was an insecure, sexually immature, and inadequate individual." p. 162. JonBenet had been penetrated with a broken-off paintbrush, I believe in an attempt to show that this sort of person was her murderer.

"I explained the difference between posing and staging. Staging, I said, appears in crimes where the offender is trying to throw off the investigation by making the police believe that something happened other than what did, such as when a rapist tries to make his intrusion look like a routine burglary. That would be an aspect of MO. Posing, on the other hand, would be signature." p. 256. This quote shows that Douglas knows what staging is, so for him to look at the crime scene of JonBenet and say that it was an intruder is ridiculous.

"...the object was not to wash away clues or evidence, as we were seeting in Atlanta, but to "stage" the crime to look like something other than what it actually was. Then I said that they had already undoubtedly interviewed the killer. He was in the neighborhood or immediate vicinity. This kind of crime is almost always a neighborhood or household crime. People don't travel long distances to commit them. If he got blood on him, which he most certainly did, he had to be able to go someplace close by to clean it off and get rid of his bloody clothing." p. 270. Again, Douglas knows what staging is, especially when the crime is one where the murderer takes his time to do the act.

"As in so many other cases, the more an offender does at a scene, even if it's an attempt to throw the police off the scent, the more clues and behavioral evidence he gives you to work with." p. 271. If only BPD hadn't totally screwed up the crime scene and ignored standard police procedure...

"His staging was poor and shows he's never tried to do it before. However, he does have an explosive, assaultive personality, so he could have committed lesser crimes." p. 271. I wonder how poor the staging of JonBenet's murder seemed to the CBI?

"...his use of wire to bind her suggests shop training or one of the vocational trades." p. 271. So maybe the use of soft cording with JonBenet suggests a college-educated murderer who didn't want to hurt his victim or her body too much?

THANKS GOES TO HEYMOM AT FFJ FOR GIVING ME PERMISSION TO POST THESE OVER HERE...SHE BOUGHT THE BOOK, AND POSTED THESE PASSAGES FROM THE BOOK.

 

[Ames]

The first case in this chapter is a woman whose little boy has supposedly been abducted. I will just type it in and let you read for yourself.

"On the 911 tape, she disctinctly says that someone 'kidnapped' her child. It's been Gregg's experience that parents will do almost anything to psychologically deny such a horrible situation. In the heat of hysterical emotion, you might expect to hear her say he was missing, he ran off, she doesn't know where he is, or something like that. For her to use the word 'kidnap' at this stage suggests she is already thinking ahead in the scenario that will play out."

"Basically, children are abducted for one of three reasons: they're taken by kidnappers for profit; they're taken by child molesters for sexual gratification; and they're taken by pathetic, lonely, unstable people who desperately want a child of their own. The kidnapper will have to communicate with the family, either by phone or written message, to set out his demand. The other two types want nothing at all to do with the family. None of the three merely send back an artifact to let the family know the child was taken. The family already knows that. If there is to be some proof of the legitimacy of the crime, it will accompany a demand; otherwise, it's meaningless."

"What Gregg decided the mother had done was to stage a kidnapping according to her perception of what a real one would be like. Unfortunately for her, she had no idea of the actual dynamics of this type of crime, and so she blew it." p. 286.

"The child was found buried in the woods in his snowsuit, wrapped in a blanket, then completely covered with a thick plastic bag. A kidnapper or child molester would not have taken this much care to make him warm and 'comfortable,' or to try and shelter the body from the elements. While many murder scenes show obvious and prolonged rage, and dump sites often show comtempt and hostility, the hallmarks of this burial were love and guilt." p. 287.

 

[Ames]

This is about Linda Haney Dover, who was killed by her husband Larry.

"They find Linda's body, wrapped in the comforter from the bedroom, with only her head exposed, in the outside crawl space under the house." p. 288.

"But the crime had too many staging elements, which made me lean toward the second type: someone who knew the victim well and therefore wanted to divert attention from himself. The only reason a killer would have felt the need to hide the body on the premises was what we classify as a 'personal cause homicide.' The trauma to the face and neck seemed highly personal, too." p. 289.

"The staging had its own internal logic and rationale. Whoever had brutalized Linda did not want to leave her body out in the open where another family member - particularly her son - might find it. That's why he took the time to wrap her in the blanket and move her to the crawl space. He wanted to make this look like a sex crime - hence the raising of the bra and exposure of the genital area - though there was no evidence of rape or sexual assault. He thought he had to do this, but still felt uncomfortable with police seeing her bare genitals and breasts, so he covered them with the blanket." p. 289.

 

[JMO8778]

If you are going to be online for a few more min., HeyMom...at FFJ...gave me permission to put her posts with the passages here on WBS. So, don't go anywhere....because you have got some INTERESTING reading to do.

sure,thx,I'll stick around

 

[Ames]

sure,thx,I'll stick around

LOL..okay. I have already started posting them...starting about four or five posts up from this one. ENJOY!!

 

[Ames]

A tidbit later in the book, from a chapter called, "Anyone Can Be a Victim."

"Bombers and extortionists typically use the word we in their communications to imply a large group watching from the shadows. The fact is, though, most of these people are suspicious loners who don't trust others." p. 331.

"Like most bombers, he (the Unabomber) referred to a group (the "FC" or "Freedom Club) as responsible for his terrorism. Still, there is little doubt he is the type of loner I described." p. 332.

"What's the difference between this type of individual and one who actually does kidnap? They're both in it for profit, so neither one wants to expose himself to the victim any more than necessary because killing is not part of the aim. The big difference is that the true kidnapper will generally need someone to help carry out his scheme, and while the simple extortionist is bascially a clever con man, the kidnapper is a sociopath. Killing the victim is not his intention, but he is clearly willing to do so to fulfill his goals." p. 334-5.

 

[Ames]

http://web.archive.org/web/20001027...olvers/douglas/1999/10/07/douglas1007_01.html

When a parent kills a child
Or it could be that a close relationship existed between the killer and the victim. Let's say a parent kills a child and then buries the body. You may find that the child was carefully wrapped or the face covered to keep dirt from getting in the mouth. In essence, someone is caring for the child after death. There's a word we use: "undoing." That's when someone tries to somehow lessen the damage after committing the crime, maybe by cleansing and bandaging the wounds. The killer may try softening the appearance of the crime by making the body's position restful and clasping the hands, almost like the victim is laid out. It's a way of symbolically erasing or reversing the crime, and it suggests remorse. Doing this gives the subject away. It's a personal crime -- strangers wouldn't likely do this.

 

[Ames]

http://web.archive.org/web/20001027...olvers/douglas/1999/10/07/douglas1007_01.html

When a parent kills a child
Or it could be that a close relationship existed between the killer and the victim. Let's say a parent kills a child and then buries the body. You may find that the child was carefully wrapped or the face covered to keep dirt from getting in the mouth. In essence, someone is caring for the child after death. There's a word we use: "undoing." That's when someone tries to somehow lessen the damage after committing the crime, maybe by cleansing and bandaging the wounds. The killer may try softening the appearance of the crime by making the body's position restful and clasping the hands, almost like the victim is laid out. It's a way of symbolically erasing or reversing the crime, and it suggests remorse. Doing this gives the subject away. It's a personal crime -- strangers wouldn't likely do this.

(From Ames)...This is part of a quote from John Douglas....you can read it in its entirety, in the above link.