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[Nuisanceposter]

JR has already lost a daughter that he grieved tragically for - if he awakens to Patsy caterwauling and handing him a ransom note that he *had* to have recognized as her handwriting....why wouldn't he just express disbelief and ask her directly to her face "what is going on and where is JonBenet?" Is he really going to see this RN and JB missing from bed as merely odd and sit back to watch events unfold without pointedly asking Patsy ( or demanding to know) what the deal is when he's already been dragged through mourning a daughter?

And why didn't he mourn JonBenet as deeply as he mourned Beth? DOI is more about his struggling to live with the loss of Beth than JonBenet. By the time a second daughter was taken from him, all JR had left was anger (not at the killer, but at the police and media.) JB became a footnote, and it was more important to stay out of jail than to solve her murder.

I used to think JR woke up not knowing anything, but over the years as I pieced together how the Rs behaved prior to the body being found, I realized the only way I can reconcile JR's behavior is that he knew there was no SFF (calling police and friends over) and that JB wasn't going to be found alive (getting Burke out of the house before she's found.) JMO.

 

[Solace]

JR has already lost a daughter that he grieved tragically for - if he awakens to Patsy caterwauling and handing him a ransom note that he *had* to have recognized as her handwriting....why wouldn't he just express disbelief and ask her directly to her face "what is going on and where is JonBenet?" Is he really going to see this RN and JB missing from bed as merely odd and sit back to watch events unfold without pointedly asking Patsy ( or demanding to know) what the deal is when he's already been dragged through mourning a daughter?

And why didn't he mourn JonBenet as deeply as he mourned Beth? DOI is more about his struggling to live with the loss of Beth than JonBenet. By the time a second daughter was taken from him, all JR had left was anger (not at the killer, but at the police and media.) JB became a footnote, and it was more important to stay out of jail than to solve her murder.

I used to think JR woke up not knowing anything, but over the years as I pieced together how the Rs behaved prior to the body being found, I realized the only way I can reconcile JR's behavior is that he knew there was no SFF (calling police and friends over) and that JB wasn't going to be found alive (getting Burke out of the house before she's found.) JMO.

I agree NP. There is no way with all the influential people he knew that he would call his friends over. Firstly, he had called his friend Ron who helped get the money. So he could have had Ron call anyone he needed, such as the FBI, police etc. in order not to alert anyone. I don't know why I thought he was not for a while. It makes no sense at all. I did think that when I read that Burke testified that John ran into his room and Patsy behind him, turned on the lights and ran out again, and Patsy saying Oh, god or something like that.

This was an act for Burke's sake. He had to know what was going on. HE would not have allowed her to call her friends like that and the police. In DOI, he says he had hoped the police would have been more discreet, but they were not.

 

[Albert18]

But you are not allowing for events to unfold.

How do you know John didn't see through the ransom note as quickly as the FBI. Maybe his reaction was twofold; worry about himself being implicated and incredible anger towards Patsy. The one thing we do know is that things were very fluid that morning. Burke was sent from the house about 3 hours after John would have first read the ransom note.

Patsy was in a very dangerous condition that morning. If John was involved in the crime, why didn't he concern himself with what she might do. Yet you have none of that behavior from him. Instead you have a behavior more like someone trying to figure things out.

Then you have Burke. Burke being there during the 911 call is also a very important event that makes John being involved earlier highly improbable.

 

[Solace]

But you are not allowing for events to unfold.

How do you know John didn't see through the ransom note as quickly as the FBI. Maybe his reaction was twofold; worry about himself being implicated and incredible anger towards Patsy. The one thing we do know is that things were very fluid that morning. Burke was sent from the house about 3 hours after John would have first read the ransom note.

Patsy was in a very dangerous condition that morning. If John was involved in the crime, why didn't he concern himself with what she might do. Yet you have none of that behavior from him. Instead you have a behavior more like someone trying to figure things out.

Then you have Burke. Burke being there during the 911 call is also a very important event that makes John being involved earlier highly improbable.

Okay, here we go again. I am going crazy but I have to ask. When did John find out?

 

[Toltec]

I believe John found out after reading the ransom letter. He recognizes Patsy's handwriting and demands to know what the heck is going onl If John knew anything before reading the note, then why take precious minutes to shower? Patsy had no time left..not even to take a shower.

 

[Albert18]

I believe John found out after reading the ransom letter. He recognizes Patsy's handwriting and demands to know what the heck is going onl If John knew anything before reading the note, then why take precious minutes to shower? Patsy had no time left..not even to take a shower.

That's the conclusion I have reached, although I hadn't thought of the shower angle.

I have wondered if Officer French had looked in the wine cellar, it might have been over right then. The location and condition of JonBenet's body would have been preserved(maybe) and most importantly, John would not have had so much time to get his thoughts together.

 

[Tober]

If the sexual abuse was not staging, what does that suggest about JonBenet's death concerning the head wound and asphyxiation? TIA

IMO it suggests that evidence of sexual contact was already present at the time she became incapacitated due to asphyxia. No medical help could be sought because the sex abuse had already been performed leaving evidence of such, and the abrasions on her neck were already present. It was a point of no return for the offenders.

 

[Tober]

I'm just brainstorming here, but if you are correct, did Patsy walk in and tried to clobber John and hit JonBenet's head instead? John jerked her around and hit her head on something? Patsy was giving her "corporal cleansing" (whatever that means)? Something else?

The collusive efforts of John and Patsy are equally strong. This is not simply one parent reluctantly going along with the other to cover-up a homicide. This is full participation. The only conclusion I can draw is that they view their collusion as worth the risk because they are both involved in JonBenet's death.

 

[DeeDee249]

YES! I agree.

As far as the parents running into BR's room, turning on the light and leaving again- I don't think it was an act for BR, but rather they wanted to see if he was awake and had heard anything at that point. They may have thought he was asleep, but BR admitted later he WAS awake but pretended to be asleep and heard footsteps running about and talking. He has not as far as is known, ever told anyone if he actually heard what was said that night, or just the sound of voices.

 

[JMO8778]

In my opinion whoever staged the scene, if they went by Douglas's book, felt some conflict in how they laid out JonBenet's body. The stager seemed to be torn between caring versus avoiding the expected clues of parental involvement such as not reposing the hands on the abdomen, not leaving her in a splayed or tossed-about position, nor was the face covered as far as we know. However, wrapping in a blanket "papoose style" as John said, laying her to rest on her back, wiping her, finding her fully clothed, and leaving her in the house, are signs of "caring." The stager seems to have made a poor variation on the expected staging from Douglas's "by the book" approach, in my opinion.

maybe he was setting Patsy up,or even if she did do it,he wasn't going to implicate himself.the way he wrapped her looks like it was done by a mother.he isn't stupid.I think he knew this.thus his 'this had to be an inside job' comment can work 2 ways...AG employees or ...Patsy.It didn't come down to blaming her or turning her in though..but I think it would have had HE been charged with anything.

 

[BOESP]

YES! I agree.

As far as the parents running into BR's room, turning on the light and leaving again- I don't think it was an act for BR, but rather they wanted to see if he was awake and had heard anything at that point. They may have thought he was asleep, but BR admitted later he WAS awake but pretended to be asleep and heard footsteps running about and talking. He has not as far as is known, ever told anyone if he actually heard what was said that night, or just the sound of voices.

Why did Burke think he had to pretend to be asleep? Surely he wasn't afraid they'd fuss at him because he was awake. Was he afraid of his parents? Did he have an idea JonBenet had been hurt thus thinking it better to feign sleep rather that risk being asked what he'd heard?

It makes no sense for Burke to pretend to be asleep. It seems clear he was avoiding contact with both parents. The question is why.

 

[BOESP]

maybe he was setting Patsy up,or even if she did do it,he wasn't going to implicate himself.the way he wrapped her looks like it was done by a mother.he isn't stupid.I think he knew this.thus his 'this had to be an inside job' comment can work 2 ways...AG employees or ...Patsy.It didn't come down to blaming her or turning her in though..but I think it would have had HE been charged with anything.

And that's a very good reason each had their own attorney -- someone to protect separate interests.

 

[JMO8778]

Why would they have called 911 without waking him up and making sure he hadn't heard or seen anything? Why would they then leave him up during the call and then send him to bed quickly after the call? I believe the police arrived in less than 10 minutes.

I think they checked on him bf the 911 call and saw he was asleep..or pretending to be anyway.they assumed he hadn't heard anything.Only when Patsy starts the fake hyperventilating call and raises her voice does BR wake up.He then hears part of it,can hear the seriousness of it and says..."Please,what do I do?" JR snaps at him 'WE are not talking to YOU!',bc BR has wondered down on his own and that upsets JR..it messed up his plan to not wake him till he was to be shuffled off w friends..IF he'd been up already,JR would have told him to BE QUIET and DO NOT TALK,NOT EVEN SO MUCH AS A PEEP until he was ushered back to bed.JR would also have made sure BR was already back in bed BEFORE the 911 call.BR's next comment also shows he had no idea what was going on 'But what DID you find?????' He heard Patsy on the phone saying either,(or both) 'there's a note here and our daughter is gone;or,'it's a ransom note' , IMO.

 

[JMO8778]

I wonder if they found anyones...besides the Ramsey's...fingerprints on it? We all know that the only prints that would have been found...would have been the Ramsey's.

right on,but I bet she was wearing gloves or wiped the pen clean,or both.

 

[JMO8778]

I totally agree. He would have made SURE that Patsy DID NOT call 911. There is NO WAY that I believe that he wasn't in on this....although, I believe it was in the staging, and helping to write the RN.

Not only that,but JR had already lost one daughter..if he'd thought for a second that Patsy might have written it,I think he'd have had his hands around her throat yelling "Where's JonBenet? I KNOW YOU WROTE THAT NOTE !!!!!!"

 

[DeeDee249]

Why did Burke think he had to pretend to be asleep? Surely he wasn't afraid they'd fuss at him because he was awake. Was he afraid of his parents? Did he have an idea JonBenet had been hurt thus thinking it better to feign sleep rather that risk being asked what he'd heard?

It makes no sense for Burke to pretend to be asleep. It seems clear he was avoiding contact with both parents. The question is why.

We'll never know unless BR opens up about that night someday. I doubt he'll do it anytime soon- he's still a college kid, I think. It'll happen either after his father is gone or if they have a falling out of some kind. But he DID admit to pretending to be asleep. He didn't say why. He might have heard what they were saying (about his sister's death) or he might have just heard the panic in their voices and wanted to keep out of it. I think the latter.
What has always puzzled me about him is how indifferent he was to the death of his sister. I mean, he really was! It was like she never existed. It seemed he didn't care that not only was she dead, but she had been MURDERED IN THEIR OWN HOME. All kids fight with siblings. Sometimes they say they hate them. But his behavior goes WAY beyond sibling rivalry.
Any normal kid would have been terrified to be sent away from his parents after his kid sister had been found murdered in their basement. His behavior always seemed to me truly disturbing. And add this to the list of things that people at the time gave the Rs a pass on.

 

[JMO8778]

y

And that's a very good reason each had their own attorney -- someone to protect separate interests.

absolutely.I sense JR did a lot of hiding behind Patsy..which makes me wonder the extent of his involvement...she wrote the note..on HER notepad...HE handed it to LE...HE took a shower and changed clothes,while noting that Patsy and JB were still partially(JB's shirt)wearing the same clothes from the previous night,even thought the White's were called and might notice that(maybe he was even hoping they would notice it???) He also makes the 'this had to be an inside job' comment.And maybe there's more, but that's all I can think of at the moment,other than JR enthusiastically agreeing that whoever wrote the note was also the killer. (I bet Patsy bopped him over the head with a wet newspaper for that one when they got home !)

edited to add: the staging looking like it was done by a mother..wrapping her up and also Patsy's fibers....did he direct her on what to do,thus leaving evidence of himself off of her,other than wiping her down below? ..that part he probably wanted to take care of himself.
And he HE rip the pages out of the notepad,leaving (on purpose) the partial practice note??? He handed it to LE , and that would be a good set up.
He'd read Mindhunter,IMO...and he knew and directed a lot of things to point away from himself,and onto Patsy.THAT is not to say she didn't do it...only that his involvment points to him hiding behind her and pointing evidence more in her direction than his.

 

[BOESP]

We'll never know unless BR opens up about that night someday. I doubt he'll do it anytime soon- he's still a college kid, I think. It'll happen either after his father is gone or if they have a falling out of some kind. But he DID admit to pretending to be asleep. He didn't say why. He might have heard what they were saying (about his sister's death) or he might have just heard the panic in their voices and wanted to keep out of it. I think the latter.
What has always puzzled me about him is how indifferent he was to the death of his sister. I mean, he really was! It was like she never existed. It seemed he didn't care that not only was she dead, but she had been MURDERED IN THEIR OWN HOME. All kids fight with siblings. Sometimes they say they hate them. But his behavior goes WAY beyond sibling rivalry.
Any normal kid would have been terrified to be sent away from his parents after his kid sister had been found murdered in their basement. His behavior always seemed to me truly disturbing. And add this to the list of things that people at the time gave the Rs a pass on.

It is strange, in my opinion, that parents whose daughter had been kidnapped would send their son away to stay with someone else. If Burke was going to be safe, staying in the home, surrounded by parents, friends and several policemen would be the logical place.

 

[Ames]

Not only that,but JR had already lost one daughter..if he'd thought for a second that Patsy might have written it,I think he'd have had his hands around her throat yelling "Where's JonBenet? I KNOW YOU WROTE THAT NOTE !!!!!!"

I agree!!

 

[rashomon]

Okay, here we go again. I am going crazy but I have to ask. When did John find out?

And how did his shirt fibers end up in the crotch area of JonBenet's size 12-14 panties which were fresh from the package? Why did John make a beeline for the wine cellar when searching the house?
John was involved in the staging of the scene, no question about it imo.