IDIs On This Forum?

[Albert18]

Isn't this book another big clue that John wasn't involved in the staging?

If John is reading a book about what evidence at a crime tells the police, why then would he stage the crime in such a way to point directly back towards the family?

In order to buy into the John involvement theory, you have to assume he is a complete idiot. That is an assumption that can't be made.

 

[JMO8778]

thx Ames...that was all so interesting !
Has JR ever made any comment as to how much he'd read of MH? Not that what he says would necessarily be the truth,but I'm just wondering if he'd admitted reading any of it and if so,how much.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Isn't this book another big clue that John wasn't involved in the staging?

If John is reading a book about what evidence at a crime tells the police, why then would he stage the crime in such a way to point directly back towards the family?

In order to buy into the John involvement theory, you have to assume he is a complete idiot. That is an assumption that can't be made.

I don't know...JR seemed to be entirely aware that the RN was bogus and there was no real need to adhere to the warnings in the note. He wasn't afraid of his daughter's head being cut off because they called police and friends anymore than he was afraid to send Burke out not knowing who's watching and where they are or what they might do.

In order to remove John from suspected involvement, you have to reconcile his blatant disregard and complete lack of fear of the RN threats.

 

[Tober]

If John is reading a book about what evidence at a crime tells the police, why then would he stage the crime in such a way to point directly back towards the family?

The most important link was eliminated by the clean-up of JonBenet's private area, i.e. no DNA or other trace evidence, other than fibers left from the clean-up. The sexual contact was then hidden beneath the 12/14 Bloomies and the blankets. The sexual contact then appears not to be part of the staging, but rather what the staging was trying to hide.

 

[Albert18]

In order to remove John from suspected involvement, you have to reconcile his blatant disregard and complete lack of fear of the RN threats.

I agree, but that may not be a problem.

Let's assume John is completely unaware until Patsy comes running and tells him about the ransom note.

I think there is a good chance both Burke and John heard something that night. It appears there was a pattern of Patsy and JonBenet having toilet struggles during the night. I imagine these were vocal and Burke and John were probably used to hearing them. Maybe when John reads the ransom note and remembers what he heard, he has a good idea something isn't right.

Next, I would think he would determine for sure exactly what was going on before making any phone calls. But if Burke is there during the 911 call, that doesn't sound like that is what happened. He wouldn't confront Patsy with Burke there. I don't like the idea of Burke just strolling down the stairs during the 911 call. That is way too convenient. So Burke being up must have been a continuation of what actually happened during Patsy's theater show. In other words, I don't think he had it out with Patsy right then to get the complete story.

But his actions indicate he knew or highly suspected the ransom note wasn't real. Burke being up would also tell me John didn't see JonBenet's body before the police arrived. Which does mesh with his disappearing during the morning hours and coming back agitated.

Maybe in the initial shock of what happened, John didn't care if Patsy was caught? Maybe his attitude was, yea call 911, call half the town, this is your problem. As the morning progresses he calms down and starts to work the problem.

 

[Tober]

In order to remove John from suspected involvement, you have to reconcile his blatant disregard and complete lack of fear of the RN threats.

Also, John colluded with Patsy to present a false version of events to police, i.e. Burke was in bed asleep when they called 911, when in reality he was out of bed and in distance of the phone. Even Burke participated by going back to bed and pretending to be asleep, probably at the direction of his parents. IMO, John is colluding because he is required to, because he is associated with the crime.

 

[BOESP]

Isn't this book another big clue that John wasn't involved in the staging?

If John is reading a book about what evidence at a crime tells the police, why then would he stage the crime in such a way to point directly back towards the family?

In order to buy into the John involvement theory, you have to assume he is a complete idiot. That is an assumption that can't be made.

In my opinion whoever staged the scene, if they went by Douglas's book, felt some conflict in how they laid out JonBenet's body. The stager seemed to be torn between caring versus avoiding the expected clues of parental involvement such as not reposing the hands on the abdomen, not leaving her in a splayed or tossed-about position, nor was the face covered as far as we know. However, wrapping in a blanket "papoose style" as John said, laying her to rest on her back, wiping her, finding her fully clothed, and leaving her in the house, are signs of "caring." The stager seems to have made a poor variation on the expected staging from Douglas's "by the book" approach, in my opinion.

 

[BOESP]

You know....call me crazy...but NOW I am wondering if was actually pre-meditated. There is a link over at FFJ, and a poster there has posted some passages, from Douglas' book, that was found on John Ramsey's nightstand....MINDHUNTER. And oh my gosh....it's like you are reading the story of JB. Just plain EERIE. I will see if HEYMOM...from FFJ, cares if I bring those passages over here. You will NOT believe your eyes....it talks about staging a crime scene, and this little boy that was wrapped lovingly in a blanket, and a lady that was killed by her husband, and he tried to make it look like a sexual assault, by pulling up her bra, and exposing her privates...but, it bothered him, so he left it like it was, but wrapped her in a comforter from the bed, and then he hid her body right outside the house. Theres ALOT more, you will have to read it to believe it....and why would John Ramsey have THAT book???

It bothers me that Douglas's profile of JonBenet's killer goes against what Douglas teaches or writes about. Now, why did he do that?

 

[BOESP]

The most important link was eliminated by the clean-up of JonBenet's private area, i.e. no DNA or other trace evidence, other than fibers left from the clean-up. The sexual contact was then hidden beneath the 12/14 Bloomies and the blankets. The sexual contact then appears not to be part of the staging, but rather what the staging was trying to hide.

I'm just brainstorming here, but if you are correct, did Patsy walk in and tried to clobber John and hit JonBenet's head instead? John jerked her around and hit her head on something? Patsy was giving her "corporal cleansing" (whatever that means)? Something else?

If the sexual abuse was not staging, what does that suggest about JonBenet's death concerning the head wound and asphyxiation? TIA

 

[Solace]

It bothers me that Douglas's profile of JonBenet's killer goes against what Douglas teaches or writes about. Now, why did he do that?

He readily admits he likes the fame.

When the Karr situation came out, Douglas had the audacity to come on tv and say his friends were not calling him to say he was right. I stood their in shock watching the TV at this man who had, and the key word is HAD, good reputation, give it up for a few seconds on TV. I had to be guided to the couch.

Why he went along with saying that, is beyond me. Why he gives up his beliefs is beyond me. I thought I read that John said he was hired to find out if John did it and not Patsy. Anyone have any more on that.

 

[Ames]

thx Ames...that was all so interesting !
Has JR ever made any comment as to how much he'd read of MH? Not that what he says would necessarily be the truth,but I'm just wondering if he'd admitted reading any of it and if so,how much.

HEYMOM..at FFJ...said that he read part of it. I don't know how much of it it he read...or if him saying that he read "part of it"...was even the truth. You know how he lies. My guess is...he read most of it...because of all the similarities between the passages in the book, and the staging done to JB.

 

[Ames]

I don't know...JR seemed to be entirely aware that the RN was bogus and there was no real need to adhere to the warnings in the note. He wasn't afraid of his daughter's head being cut off because they called police and friends anymore than he was afraid to send Burke out not knowing who's watching and where they are or what they might do.

In order to remove John from suspected involvement, you have to reconcile his blatant disregard and complete lack of fear of the RN threats.

I totally agree. He would have made SURE that Patsy DID NOT call 911. There is NO WAY that I believe that he wasn't in on this....although, I believe it was in the staging, and helping to write the RN.

 

[Ames]

I agree, but that may not be a problem.

Let's assume John is completely unaware until Patsy comes running and tells him about the ransom note.

I think there is a good chance both Burke and John heard something that night. It appears there was a pattern of Patsy and JonBenet having toilet struggles during the night. I imagine these were vocal and Burke and John were probably used to hearing them. Maybe when John reads the ransom note and remembers what he heard, he has a good idea something isn't right.

Next, I would think he would determine for sure exactly what was going on before making any phone calls. But if Burke is there during the 911 call, that doesn't sound like that is what happened. He wouldn't confront Patsy with Burke there. I don't like the idea of Burke just strolling down the stairs during the 911 call. That is way too convenient. So Burke being up must have been a continuation of what actually happened during Patsy's theater show. In other words, I don't think he had it out with Patsy right then to get the complete story.

But his actions indicate he knew or highly suspected the ransom note wasn't real. Burke being up would also tell me John didn't see JonBenet's body before the police arrived. Which does mesh with his disappearing during the morning hours and coming back agitated.

Maybe in the initial shock of what happened, John didn't care if Patsy was caught? Maybe his attitude was, yea call 911, call half the town, this is your problem. As the morning progresses he calms down and starts to work the problem.

Nah...I just don't think that Patsy had either the sense or the time...to pull this whole thing off by herself. John was in on it....although, not from the start. He helped with the staging, and the writing of the RN.

 

[Ames]

In my opinion whoever staged the scene, if they went by Douglas's book, felt some conflict in how they laid out JonBenet's body. The stager seemed to be torn between caring versus avoiding the expected clues of parental involvement such as not reposing the hands on the abdomen, not leaving her in a splayed or tossed-about position, nor was the face covered as far as we know. However, wrapping in a blanket "papoose style" as John said, laying her to rest on her back, wiping her, finding her fully clothed, and leaving her in the house, are signs of "caring." The stager seems to have made a poor variation on the expected staging from Douglas's "by the book" approach, in my opinion.

Parents usually cover their deceased child's face...if they are the one that murdered them....if they are going to be dumped outside somewhere...according to Douglas, its to keep the dirt out of their mouths, and off of their face. WEIRD, isn't it????

I agree...JB being wrapped "papoose style"...and the wiping, her being fully clothed, and left inside the house ARE signs of "caring".

 

[Ames]

It bothers me that Douglas's profile of JonBenet's killer goes against what Douglas teaches or writes about. Now, why did he do that?

I know!!! He says that an intruder did it. It has to be some sort of double standard...either that or he was paid off....OR he was impressed that John had his book....or all the above. It makes him look like a total idiot...to read some of the things that he says in his book....and then when it comes to JB..he says an intruder did it. Makes no sense at all.

 

[Albert18]

Nah...I just don't think that Patsy had either the sense or the time...to pull this whole thing off by herself. John was in on it....although, not from the start. He helped with the staging, and the writing of the RN.

But then I need an explanation of why Burke was there during the 911 call.

If John and Patsy are working together most of the night, they would have awakened Burke well before the 911 call to see what he heard and saw during the night and to tell him to stay in his room and not say anything. Burke would have been back in his bed and they would have been ready for people to arrive. So there is a zero percent chance he would have wandered down on his own during the 911 call.

Burke was there that night. All night. Why would they have called 911 without waking him up and making sure he hadn't heard or seen anything? Why would they then leave him up during the call and then send him to bed quickly after the call? I believe the police arrived in less than 10 minutes.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm just brainstorming here, but if you are correct, did Patsy walk in and tried to clobber John and hit JonBenet's head instead? John jerked her around and hit her head on something? Patsy was giving her "corporal cleansing" (whatever that means)? Something else?

If the sexual abuse was not staging, what does that suggest about JonBenet's death concerning the head wound and asphyxiation? TIA

"Corporal cleansing" is a term that seems to be confusing to people. What ST means is like "corporal punishment" (spanking, slapping, other physical punishment). So to him, "corporal cleansing" means using douching or other rigorous vaginal cleansing as a punishment.

 

[BOESP]

"Corporal cleansing" is a term that seems to be confusing to people. What ST means is like "corporal punishment" (spanking, slapping, other physical punishment). So to him, "corporal cleansing" means using douching or other rigorous vaginal cleansing as a punishment.

That's what I'd always assumed since the autopsy, to me, could very well describe the damage caused by douching. Regardless, JonBenet had chronic injuries in that area so something was going on at least days before her death. Someone did something to her before the night she died and I don't see how there can be any doubt about that. Based on what we've learned about JonBenet's personality, I believe she would have told her mother if someone was molesting her.

Thanks for the input.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think she'd tell her mother UNLESS the molestor WAS her mother...or father.

 

[BOESP]

I think she'd tell her mother UNLESS the molestor WAS her mother...or father.

Certainly. I agree.