If Terri didn't do it, then why.....

[SleuthyGal]

I count that as "3 visits to LE, but sitting for 2 polygraph tests." Walking out before being attached to a polygraph machine is not, in fact, taking a polygraph, so that doesn't count as one.

 

[Adalena935]

There's nothing wrong with judging. Our laws already judge that child kidnapping is a crime. Law enforcement's job is to investigate crime. FBI especially when it's a child and the person last known to be with such a missing child would be judged on her answers about her whereabouts. With her answers not matching up they have to judge her. Judge means only to have an opinion. LE couldn't investigate crime without having opinions about evidence they gather. How else would they find out what ever happened?

I'm not the slightest bit worried about her. It is what it is. A child is missing and needs desperately to be found. He's the priority, not the people who LE speaks with in it's investigation. I don't think LE's always right. I know they're not infallible. I know they're human. I know they don't always get it right. But they can't be blocked from doing their jobs nonetheless out of fear someone might make a mistake or that an innocent might be quesitoned or suspected. It's always been legal in the US for anyone to be suspected and even arrested. That's how our system works. Yes sometimes it's wrong and sometimes it's right.

If people of the nation want to do away with child kidnapping laws on the books they're free to petition for that. But this crime already falls under the existing laws on this crime.

 

[Adalena935]

I count that as "3 visits to LE, but sitting for 2 polygraph tests." Walking out before being attached to a polygraph machine is not, in fact, taking a polygraph, so that doesn't count as one.

That's why I posted the link so people can read it. I think that link's been posted quite a few times in the case discussion. I didn't want to copy & paste too much due to TOS, but if you'll notice in the linked article it says she was never hooked up for the 1st one, walked out before answering any questions on the 2nd one and walked out on the 3rd one.

1st one never hooked up - walked out before hooked up
2nd one - walked out before questions began
3rd one - walked out

ETA: In the above link.

 

[cypress]

This is the thread that will keep coming back until we understand. TMH fits into this story of Kyron missing like the puzzle piece you were looking for. I don't even want to believe the woman in the holiday photo with her husband and the children was plotting to kill him, or take his child, but that is an actual part of this case now.

Now, DY comes out with the impression TMH lies, and has lied as far as DY's concerned for 7 years. Add that tidbit to the other inconsistencies and you have to keep looking at TMH.

IMO, she is either covering someone else involved, or she is covering up something, or she is covering up what she did, but it is called covering up a crime.

Please, listen Terri - Talk now if you're going to talk at all. Do the right thing NOW.

I, too, am starting to worry she may be pushed to thoughts of suicide with all the mud being slung at her but it is frustration that Kyron is still out there. I think many of us can understand if TMH has been hormonally unbalanced, and did something awful, but the longer this goes on with Kyron still missing it becomes harder for people to relate to TMH as anything but guilty of something.

Two things bother me about blindly trusting Desiree's impression of Terri --that trust is founded on the assumption that Desiree is an upstanding, honest person because she is the grieving biological mother, and secondly, she is the grieving biological mother; she's hardly objective. Desiree having a missing son, her loving that son, her being beautiful and crying appropriately, doesn't make her a good person. She may be a beautiful person inside and out, but we don't know; we've heard less about her from the community and/or her friends than about Terri; ironically, a lot of what we've heard about Terri from people who know her is good and/or certainly not damning.

People tend to be vilified or canonized in extreme emotional moments, when the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

There are several reports by people who knew Terri, who interacted with her, who assert she was a doting, attentive stepmother. I believe it was the swimming instructor who said he didn't even know Kyron was not Terri's biological son until he went missing.

 

[SleuthyGal]

in the linked article it says she was never hooked up for the 1st one, walked out before answering any questions on the 2nd one and walked out on the 3rd one.

If that's true then she couldn't have failed 2 LDTs since she was only hooked up AND answering some questions on 1 of the tests (the 3rd one, based on the article you mentioned). Walking out before answering any questions doesn't count as 'failing' a LDT, although it certainly would raise eyebrows all around.

 

[Donjeta]

That's why I posted the link so people can read it. I think that link's been posted quite a few times in the case discussion. I didn't want to copy & paste too much due to TOS, but if you'll notice in the linked article it says she was never hooked up for the 1st one, walked out before answering any questions on the 2nd one and walked out on the 3rd one.

1st one never hooked up - walked out before hooked up
2nd one - walked out before questions began
3rd one - walked out

ETA: In the above link.

The article I'm seeing says she failed the first polygraph and walked out of the second one before they hooked her up and the questions began, and failed the third one again.

Kaine Horman, father of 7-year-old Kyron Horman, tells WW the missing boy’s stepmom walked out of her second polygraph test before investigators even began asking questions.

“She didn’t even get hooked up to the machine. She walked out before they hooked her up,” Horman told WW in an interview Thursday night.

 

[wondering1]

The article I'm seeing says she failed the first polygraph and walked out of the second one before they hooked her up and the questions began, and failed the third one again.

That's the way I understood it, too. Kaine lays it out in one of the videos. I think the hulo link (was that Dateline). Anyway, it was very clear the way he laid it out in that interview. I'm running out the house now, or I'd go look again.

 

[cypress]

Contradictory reports! I'm shocked!

I wish we could have a thread for that because there are a lot of contradictory reports, even from the bio parents, IMHO.

Kaine said the marriage was in trouble shortly after baby K was born, but he went on to say that nothing was wrong before Kyron went missing and that he thought the marriage was a clean slate.

Desiree says Terri is uncooperative, but LE says Terri has been cooperative.

There have been between one and three lie detector tests, but she's failed two, or walked out on two, or something.

Her cell phone pings don't match where she says she was that day, but Desiree says Terri doesn't remember where she was that day.

Personally, I think some of the confusion is in the editing, but none of this confusion and misinformation is going to help find Kyron.

 

[SacreBleu]

Do you know she lied about her whereabouts? From what I understand there is an unsubstantiated claim that her cell phone ping'ed off a tower that would indicate she was on Sauvie Island shortly after she last saw Kyron. Thats hardly proof, its a rumor. Besides that the locals have said that Sauvie Island isn't too far away so I personally don't find it odd that her cell would ping on a tower near there at all. Cell companies don't built out capacity to handle every single call that might hit a tower. They build out capacity based on expected average traffic. (Thats why on Mother's day you might get a recording saying all circuits are busy to try your call again later.) It is possible that a cell signal might be refused by one tower for whatever reason so it jumps to the next one (sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and a call is dropped). If we were talking about Sauvie Island being 50-100 miles away I'd find it odd that her cell may have ping'ed there but we're talking about 5-10 miles so I don't think it proves she lied.

I would think that it would be fairly simple for the carrier to determine whether or not traffic necessitated a route to an alternative tower at a specific time or not. I also suspect that LE has asked that question.

 

[Adalena935]

Of course there is reason to worry, but at this point based upon what we know there is no reason to accuse. (Notice how police haven't accused her?) Again, I think KH and DY truly believe she is guilty bacause of what they have been told and by whom it was that told them. So they could be wrong and still not be lying.

I think the biological parent's opinion of the stepmother at this point is based on more than just what they've been told. Their son is vanished. The stepmother was last with him.

If the stepmom's story renditions to police don't match physical records why fear truth?

http://www.nwcn.com/news/Kyrons-mom-I-know-shes-lying-98085349.html

"I've known her a long time," Desiree Young said, "I know she's lying."

 

[Adalena935]

The article I'm seeing says she failed the first polygraph and walked out of the second one before they hooked her up and the questions began, and failed the third one again.

But in his WW interview, Kaine Horman revealed what hasn’t been made public — that Kyron’s stepmom walked out of a third test.

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/09/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-walked-out-on-polygraph/

 

[JBean]

Two things bother me about blindly trusting Desiree's impression of Terri --that trust is founded on the assumption that Desiree is an upstanding, honest person because she is the grieving biological mother, and secondly, she is the grieving biological mother; she's hardly objective. Desiree having a missing son, her loving that son, her being beautiful and crying appropriately, doesn't make her a good person. She may be a beautiful person inside and out, but we don't know; we've heard less about her from the community and/or her friends than about Terri; ironically, a lot of what we've heard about Terri from people who know her is good and/or certainly not damning.

People tend to be vilified or canonized in extreme emotional moments, when the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

There are several reports by people who knew Terri, who interacted with her, who assert she was a doting, attentive stepmother. I believe it was the swimming instructor who said he didn't even know Kyron was not Terri's biological son until he went missing.

I don't think DY's impression of TH has anything to do with DY's goodness. Bad things happen to good and bad people so that is just a non-issue. The weight of her personal opinion is that of the mother of the missing child and should not be qualified as to whether she is "good"? I am more than interested in DY's impression of TH because she knows her personally and we do not.

IMO, I do not see DY as trying to present an objective description of Terri, rather she says it is her feeling and tells us what she knows. To take it a step further I think DY has chosen her words carefully and has been gracious and cautious in her discussion of TH.

I think it is interesting to hear how others describe TH as well. I listen and take note of the good, the bad, and the ugly impressions of her. I don't know that we need to determine if the swim instructor is a "good" person to take this persons opinion at face value either. KWIM?

 

[TxLady2]

Respectfully, they probably do have evidence that a crime happened. Just because there's no crimescene, doesn't mean a crime didn't happen. I've heard of people being convicted without a body. There's this thing called circumstantial evidence. If there's enough, a person can be convicted without proof of being physically connected to a crime scene, ala Scott Peterson and eventually so will Casey Anthony. There's a child here that disappeared and his stepmother was the one who last saw him. Things are not adding up and she failed two polygraph tests. We don't know that someone didn't see Kyron leave with her. They might even have enough to charge her with neglect or abandonment, but I think they are taking their time and building a case. I don't think they are just sitting on nothing. Who knows, maybe TH thought she'd get away with it if there was no body and no crimescene. I think she's about to find out how wrong that assumption was.

They didn't arrest Scott P. until they found the bodies.
With Caylee they had the forensic evidence in the car proving she was dead.
As far as we know, they have not found Kyron's body. Without some physical evidence to prove he is dead, they can't charge her with murder.
They don't know at this point what the crime was... kidnapping or murder... so I doubt that an arrest is imminent.
I don't know what circumstantial evidence you are referring to but none of it that we've seen so far will prove anything in court.
I did not mention anything about crime scenes.

 

[cmsg2002]

I think there is a whole lot more to the story of the relationship dynamics between DY and TH. The more I hear, the more I am convinced that there was a very acrimonious relationship between these two. I am speaking from experience in being a custodial stepmother for over 10 yrs now and having the bio-mom just plain hate me! I can guarantee that if I was in a similar situation, the bio-mom would have me convicted and sentenced to death within the first 24 hours, regardless of the evidence. There is alot of guilt, insecurity, jealousy, vindictiveness, etc. that comes with being a bio-mom that does not have physical custody. I have been involved in my skids lives for almost 18 yrs now, and have emotionally and financially helped support them but I will never, ever hear a thank you or kind word from their mother, because to her I am evil incarnate.
MOO, but I think that DY's judgment may be very clouded by her own feelings towards TH. What better revenge than to get your ex to divorce the new wife that he left you for? Not saying DY was involved in any way, but that the emotional chaos Kyron's disappearance has caused has not left her in the most objective state, and she is going thru many emotional cycles and upheavals..i.e. anger, grief, etc.

 

[dr dona]

I'm a person who was on the fence so to speak. Now, all I can hear in my head are words from Mark Klass---as a parent of a missing child you prove your innocence so LE will search for the actual perp. He asked to take a lie detector test---he knew he had nothing to do with Polly's disappearance. So why did stepmom allegedly fail 1 or 2 polygraphs and leave early during another????? Why do cell pings disagree with her supposed location------ I know in an initial police interview when you are stressed and ?hysterical you may forget some events of the day, but I know as a parent I would mentally review everything that happened that day. I'd search my brain to remember if I saw any people I'd never seen at the school. I'd think about whether I saw any odd vehicles outside of the school. When my kids were little and visited their grade school I took notice of people hanging around the school who didn't belong. I would go over and over everything that happened that day. So why is SM not doing this. We all suspected Casey because she didn't behave like a normal mom would if your child had been missing for 1 month. Stepmom's actions just don't make sense unless she is trying to hide the truth.

 

[grandmaj]

That's the way I understood it, too. Kaine lays it out in one of the videos. I think the hulo link (was that Dateline). Anyway, it was very clear the way he laid it out in that interview. I'm running out the house now, or I'd go look again.

It was a video I posted yesterday in the 3 lie detector thread. Hold on I'll find it.

 

[grandmaj]

Here it is in the video

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/09/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-walked-out-on-polygraph/

Adalena found it.

 

[TxLady2]

A few thoughts about LDT.

I took one once. Failed it miserably. Didn't have anything to do with a crime, and I wasn't accused of anything. Just managed to fail it horrifically.

Then, about 10 years later, I took another one. There was a 'control' question, that I knew I had to lie about (those were the instructions, so they'd get a baseline on what happens *to me* when I lie, and how the machine reads it. The polygrapher was chuckling about three questions ahead...I was already losing control, knowing I'd have to "lie", even though there was no negative consequence for lying. By the time I got to the "lie", he had to adjust the paper several times to keep the needle on it. Afterwards, he told me to go home and congratulate my parents - they'd raised a very honest person who couldn't lie to save herself.

Those two experiences taught me something very, very valuable. There is definitely a valid reason LDTs are not allowed as evidence. One can fail them for so many different reasons, and pass them for the same thing. It's one of those things which, if done correctly, can yield clues to follow up on...but even then, it's not so very reliable.

And my last thought on polygraphing, is that cops can, and often do, tell a person they've failed it, just to rachet up pressure on someone they feel is guilty and close to cracking. The problem is, the person may not have failed it whatsoever; may have passed it. May have passed it with "flying colors". But they're told they failed it. The officers can, and often do, lie to suspects just to gauge reactions and see if they can't pressure them into confessing.

And if TH walked out of one poly because "she was failing", it wasn't her who figured that out. She can't see the graph. That's part of how the area is arranged; the person taking the poly can't see what a "lie" looks like on a graph. So she must've been told she'd failed (and it may have been a lie), and she got frustrated, unhooked and left. But it wasn't her who decided she'd failed; she's been told that by LE who are legally allowed to lie about results and evidence and testimony.

So many people don't realize that LE is legally able to lie about things.

Best-
Herding Cats

ITA with everything you said!!
I was required to take a LDT years and years ago, as part of my job as a grocery store checker, back in the days before computerized cash registers and scanners. Then, you only had to hit one key to open the cash drawer, and well, there are dishonest people out there.
Anyway, I did get hired and kept the job, so I guess I did okay.
I was VERY nervous. One of the questions asked was, "Have you ever stolen anything?" I answered NO, of course... and then remembered I had stolen a 5-cent package of peanuts on a dare one time, when I was 8 or 9 years old. Got scared he would tell my daddy, and went back and told the store owner and paid for them the next day.
I have no idea whether the needle went crazy over that answer or not, but there is no way a person can qualify an answer... they're all yes or no questions. So when the media reported that Terri was "evasive", I wondered what they meant.
Yes, cops can and do lie to suspects... and it's possible that they lied to Terri, but I doubt it. However, I do believe they told the other 3 they passed with flying colors because they had already cleared them, due to Kaine being at work and verified by witnesses, and Tony and Desiree being 4 or 5 hours away, also verified.

 

[wondering1]

Here it is in the video

http://blogs.wweek.com/news/2010/07/09/kaine-horman-kyrons-stepmom-walked-out-on-polygraph/

Adalena found it.

It couldn't have been that one, cause I can't see that one, and couldn't when you posted it lol. Now I'm in my office, on a Sunday, and I still can't stay away from this case. Argghh. I'll see if I can find the one I'm talking about when I get home. I, too, was confused before I saw the last one.

 

[TxLady2]

sorrell - I asked AZ lawyer if Kaine could give permission to LE for search of house, cars, land, and cell phones if they were in his name. The response was yes and a warrant wouldn't be needed. Don't know if cell phones are in Kaine's name, but if they are LE wouldn't need a warrant if given permission by Kaine. moo

They would probably want to get a warrant for the cell phone records, though, just to be on the safe side. A defense lawyer might find some kind of loophole and it would result in the cell phone records being inadmissable in court. LE does not like to take chances with things like that. IMO.