If you believe the Ramsey's did it please answer this for me...

[LinasK]

i hear you -and i dont discard your carefully thot out conclusions- I really dont see it here-there are so many possibilities and why are we picking these ones..
a dad can want his daughters picture in his bathroom-cuz i can imagine his bathroom is as big as half my room or more..is this the daughter who was killed? If so I really cant see why anyone would think it was unusual.
You can be sure his bathroom was very very very large.

I think a bathroom is a strange place to keep a photo if it was the only one he kept of her. I believe it was the daughter who died in a car accident. Keep in mind Michael Jackson kept his in his bathroom.

 

[s_finch]

i hear you -and i dont discard your carefully thot out conclusions- I really dont see it here-there are so many possibilities and why are we picking these ones..
a dad can want his daughters picture in his bathroom-cuz i can imagine his bathroom is as big as half my room or more..is this the daughter who was killed? If so I really cant see why anyone would think it was unusual.
You can be sure his bathroom was very very very large.

If this link is correct, http://www.realsundancekid.com/ his bathroom doesn't look so large to me

 

[newtv]

I think a bathroom is a strange place to keep a photo if it was the only one he kept of her. I believe it was the daughter who died in a car accident. Keep in mind Michael Jackson kept his in his bathroom.

but again we dont know that and thats why i cant get on a rant about things that are rumor..i just cant build a case on it-

 

[newtv]

If this link is correct, http://www.realsundancekid.com/ his bathroom doesn't look so large to me

again we dont know if that was the bathroom
more often than not when a rumor is what we rely on we will later find out they meant
the pool room or a completely different room that happens to have a bathroom in it.
I dont buy it till I see it and see if it has an explanation that is as innocent as can be.

 

[LaMer]

Interesting discussion here.

However, if one listened to Ricci on CTTV today, this discussion would be MOOT, the Ramseys have been cleared, according to Ricci! :doh:

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

MaybeSo--so you believe that "most mothers that kill their kids have mental problems"? well,that would be easier to accept,wouldn't it? do you happen to have any statistics that back your belief? If this is true,then why is Diane Downs in prison for life for shooting her three kids?? Why is Susan Smith in prison for lifefor murdering her two sons/? Why is Darlie Routier on death row for stabbing to death her two sons? Why did a mother here recently stand by and watch her 5 year old get beaten to death by her boyfriend because she defecated on the floor? only Andrea Yates supports your theory and that took 2 trials

Oh, I agree so completely with you Peter.

Either one of two things happened here:



1.)
Patsy killed her by accident. This is the most likely scenario. I believe Patsy and JBR used to argue like most moms and young daughters. The stress of the season and the impending early-morning trip made PR fly off the handle and fling JBR.

They may have been arguing over the red turtleneck sweater - I have a longer theory about this, but there is no time right now to expand on it...In short, if JBR had the turtleneck around her neck and PR and JBR were struggling over putting on the shirt, or not, and the child was choked and flung at the same time. With JBR's weight and the strength of an angry Patsy, JBR landed with such force that the head-injury occured.

The 'stun gun' marks are from Patsy's rings as she clung to and squeezed her lifeless child as Patsy was in agony and shock over the accident (look at the location of the marks and look at where you would grab and rock a child of JBR's size and look at my experiment if you get a chance). After a while, Patsy came to her senses and staged the cover-up...

OR

2.)
Patsy decided Christmas night was the night the children should be given back to God...

And, like any of the otherwise-good-moms you mentioned (add Deanna Laney and Marilynn Lemak to that list, please), Patsy killed JBR intentionally. She might have been heading to Burke's room to do the same to him when John intervened with ,"What is going on here?" (As Laney's husband did...)

Instead of calling 911, the far-too-pretentious John insisted that the now-nutty-and-equally-pretentious Patsy cover up her deeds and leave Burke alone, sleeping and alive...After all, what would the neighbors think??

 

[julianne]

I think to use the fact that JR kept a photo of his daughter in the bathroom as possible evidence that he molested her is.....well, it just doesn't fly with me. I don't think a bathroom is a wierd place to keep a photo. I myself have family photos all over the house, including my bathrooms. In my boys bathroom, I have a framed photo of the 3 of them in front of the Pacific Ocean at Newport Beach taken during a family vacation. In my bathroom, I have a photo of the boys sitting on jetski's. I just don't see how keeping an innocent photo in a bathroom can be equated to sexual abuse. I mean, this is MY HOME...so, to me, there is NO place in my home that is a wierd place to keep a family photo. Do we not all have differing ideas when it comes to decorating our homes?

I'm just really having a hard time how anyone could use JR's bathroom photo as a clue to him possibly being a child molester. Am I missing something here?

Also--I would be willing to bet that it was Patsy who put the photo there to begin with! I have tons of framed family photos all around my house, and my husband didn't put one of them up! I selected and bought the frames, I enlarged the photos, I selected where they would be hung. That's because any sort of decorating in my house has always been done by me. My hubby isn't into that sort of thing at all (much to my dismay)---he's just not as creative as I am, and it's actually that way with alot of families I know. But even if was John who put it there, it doesn't equate, or even slightly hint, at him being a child molester.

The only way I would be willing to make that association is if it was a NUDE photo, but it wasn't.

 

[BBB167893]

"They left things very unclear if they wanted to have others believe there was an intruder cuz most of u think they are guilty.
The biggest problem I have with the whole notion they staged it is that the staging was so poorly done-only an idiot would write that ransom note-make it that long..and leave her in a room with nothing out of place but a suitcase..
These are smart people-they would have done a better job..such as break a window-put a chair under it-they would make it more obvious and believeable..jmo"

Newtv, Smart is not the same as clever. These were not sophisticated criminal minds. Of course the staging was poorly done. A stager doesn't KNOW what a real crime looks like. Give me a break.

"I believe that the stun gun theory has been properly debunked by the vast majority of people and experts involved in the case."

It has.

"I think LE or anyone could tell if the 2 sets of footprints in the basement mold were fresh, or what degree of fresh, right?"

I think they could tell fresh or not fresh, not how much.

"Are the documentaries plain wrong, just to sell a story?"

YES!

"Didn't Donald Foster, the handwriting expert who identified the Unibomber, come to the conclusion that Patsy wrote the ransom note?"

Sure did!

"not one slip"

Are you kidding? "Burke was asleep. No, he was awake but pretending to be asleep. No, he was awake and crying. JonBenet was asleep. No, she was awake. I bought the panties for my niece. No, Jonbenet picked them out," etc, etc.

"As well the ramseys win every court case they set out to win-over and over again they prevail"

Oh, please! They've hardly ever set FOOT in court. Those others have all settled rather than fight, as they are known to do. That's hardly a win.

"To me, the reason why this case wasn't solved, because the LE, or whoever it is that determines this, didn't know who to proscute JR, PR or BR?"

Exactly right, Paper Doll! You charge the mom, she'll blame the dad. You charge the dad, he'll blame the mom.

As for me, I think Patsy was like the Wicked Queen in Snow White, angered that she wasn't the fairest in the land anymore. When she caught John molesting her, that was the last straw.

 

[Anita Richman]

Oh, I agree so completely with you Peter.

Either one of two things happened here:



1.)
Patsy killed her by accident. This is the most likely scenario. I believe Patsy and JBR used to argue like most moms and young daughters. The stress of the season and the impending early-morning trip made PR fly off the handle and fling JBR.

They may have been arguing over the red turtleneck sweater - I have a longer theory about this, but there is no time right now to expand on it...In short, if JBR had the turtleneck around her neck and PR and JBR were struggling over putting on the shirt, or not, and the child was choked and flung at the same time. With JBR's weight and the strength of an angry Patsy, JBR landed with such force that the head-injury occured.

The 'stun gun' marks are from Patsy's rings as she clung to and squeezed her lifeless child as Patsy was in agony and shock over the accident (look at the location of the marks and look at where you would grab and rock a child of JBR's size and look at my experiment if you get a chance). After a while, Patsy came to her senses and staged the cover-up...

OR

2.)
Patsy decided Christmas night was the night the children should be given back to God...

And, like any of the otherwise-good-moms you mentioned (add Deanna Laney and Marilynn Lemak to that list, please), Patsy killed JBR intentionally. She might have been heading to Burke's room to do the same to him when John intervened with ,"What is going on here?" (As Laney's husband did...)

Instead of calling 911, the far-too-pretentious John insisted that the now-nutty-and-equally-pretentious Patsy cover up her deeds and leave Burke alone, sleeping and alive...After all, what would the neighbors think??

I like option #1, wmg! I too, think a struggle ensued whereby Patsy shook JBR with both hands (or pulled the shirt tight, around her neck) and swung her into the tub, creating the fracture. She, in a fit of panic, used the garrote to confuse the investigators.

Someone above asked if Patsy was "into" True Crime. I have not heard anything as far as that goes, but there was a crime book next to John's side of the bed. Mind Hunter by former FBI profile John Douglas. (I have never read the book, but read a comment by another poster that there is a section about "crime scene staging".)

 

[MysteryAddict]

The more ideas I read the more confused I get!
Help!

I had thought the blow to the head came first, as much
as 20 to 60 min. before the strangulation. Also that it was
to the side of the head and that JB had to have been in a
vertical position at the time.

I thought it was a proven fact that the strangulation by
the garrotte was the final cause of death!

If the blow came first--

I can picture a scene which includes the pineapple which was found in JB's stomach and hasn't been included in any of the above theories. Patsy, and Burke's prints are on the bowl and JonBenet ate some of it, so it seems important to the evening.

Did JonBenet while sitting at the table with Patsy, say
something to enrage her so much that she picked up the
flashlight and bashed her in the head?

Maybe Patsy was scolding JB and she said something like-

"Well anyhow, I'm prettier than you or Daddy loves
me more or I'm telling the secret!"

Patsy's reaction? How dare you!!

She grabs the flashlight and bashes JB aside the head with it. JonBenet falls to the floor unconscious.

Just a idea of how the horrific events of the night could have begun.

 

[BBB167893]

I've run that over in my head a million times.

 

[tybee204]

I think to use the fact that JR kept a photo of his daughter in the bathroom as possible evidence that he molested her is.....well, it just doesn't fly with me. I don't think a bathroom is a wierd place to keep a photo. I myself have family photos all over the house, including my bathrooms. In my boys bathroom, I have a framed photo of the 3 of them in front of the Pacific Ocean at Newport Beach taken during a family vacation. In my bathroom, I have a photo of the boys sitting on jetski's. I just don't see how keeping an innocent photo in a bathroom can be equated to sexual abuse. I mean, this is MY HOME...so, to me, there is NO place in my home that is a wierd place to keep a family photo. Do we not all have differing ideas when it comes to decorating our homes?

I'm just really having a hard time how anyone could use JR's bathroom photo as a clue to him possibly being a child molester. Am I missing something here?

Also--I would be willing to bet that it was Patsy who put the photo there to begin with! I have tons of framed family photos all around my house, and my husband didn't put one of them up! I selected and bought the frames, I enlarged the photos, I selected where they would be hung. That's because any sort of decorating in my house has always been done by me. My hubby isn't into that sort of thing at all (much to my dismay)---he's just not as creative as I am, and it's actually that way with alot of families I know. But even if was John who put it there, it doesn't equate, or even slightly hint, at him being a child molester.

The only way I would be willing to make that association is if it was a NUDE photo, but it wasn't.

I placed a photo of my grandaughter playing on the beach on my bathroom vanity. I kept finding the picture face down and for the life of me couldnt figure out why. I thought maybe the frame was defective and it kept falling over.
I came to find out my husband hated that picture in there and would lay it face down when he went to the bathroom. It never dawned on me that it would bother him in anyway. I honestly didnt think he even noticed things like that around the house. But I have since become aware that many men do not like the faces of little girls watching them do their business.

 

[Anita Richman]

I placed a photo of my grandaughter playing on the beach on my bathroom vanity. I kept finding the picture face down and for the life of me couldnt figure out why. I thought maybe the frame was defective and it kept falling over.
I came to find out my husband hated that picture in there and would lay it face down when he went to the bathroom. It never dawned on me that it would bother him in anyway. I honestly didnt think he even noticed things like that around the house. But I have since become aware that many men do not like the faces of little girls watching them do their business.

I am sorry, but your story made me laugh out loud! (My husband did the same in our bedroom to our daughter's senior picture.) :doh:

 

[Bronte Nut]

I've run that over in my head a million times.

Me too. I think some such variation on a theme was the actual scenario, and between us, we've probably come up with the actual pre-death/death scene, even if as a composite.

There was a book by a pathologist in which he reckoned that the blow was probably fatal, and that the garroting was for show.

The flashlight could have been the impact source, but equally, if a woman like Patsy, in a sudden surge of anger, grabbed a tiny thing like JonBenet and hauled her around in an arc, accidentally striking her head on a concrete/metal pillar (I don't know the house layout) that could easily have caused the head trauma.

It's interesting that the vast, vast majority of people who bother to express an opinion about the JonBenet case, feel that the parents were in some way responsible. Even after ten years of smoke and mirrors and angry lawyer outburts.

Maybe Lin Wood's reptilian indignation is actually being counter-productive - as was the Ramseys' own arrogance.

 

[southcitymom]

Thanks Vet4Bush and SouthCityMom.
Vet4Bush makes a good clarification, by using the word "premeditated". It is less confusing than the word "accident".

But Vet4Bush, did you see photos of that head fracture? Man. I don't know; it just seems hard to picture, that a child could be knocked down, even by a hard shove, and result in such a nearly complete separation of the two sides of the skull, and that one area that appears to be an impact depression.

And perhaps most important to me, the autopsy or crime scene photos did not report that there was a volume of blood lost. Rather, there was some clotting at the wound site. The conclusion was that JBR was already dead or nearly dead, when this blow to the head was delivered. This is what steers me away from the PR did it scenario.

There is another thread going on here right now where there is discussion of which came first - the head blow (and you are right - it was a doozy - the autopsy photos of her skull alwasy make me gasp) or the strangulation. I wish I could tell you which thread, but I can't recall.

In any event, MOST experts agree that the blow to the head came first - that there was a loss of blood that pooled in layers in the brain (that's about as scientific as I can offer, sorry) and that she was likely unconscious when she was strangled.

The fact that the blow to the head came first is one of the pieces of evidence that leads me to a RDI conclusion.

 

[Toltec]

Patsy requested that Pam Paugh retrieve the MyTwinnDoll during her visit to the home Dec 26. Why Patsy would want a doll JonBenet did not care for is open to interpretation.

I too believe Patsy killed her daughter in a rage. She struck JonBenet over the head with the flashlight....or possibly pushed her and struck her head on the toilet or bathtub.

Patsy was not changing a wet JonBenet....she was cleaning a soiled JonBenet. Let's not forget the soiled play pants JonBenet wore during Christmas day...found in her bathroom floor. The soiled size six panties are missing?

JonBenet did not bathe Christmas day...she only changed into her Gap outfit. Would a six-year-old change her soiled underwear....my guess is no. She wore her soiled panties to the Whites....(I say this only because no feces was found on the size 12 panties) and then wiped down by Patsy during their routine 12pm potty check. Try wiping down a soiled six-year-old who hated to be awakened and is kicking and screaming bloody murder. It was that moment that Patsy lost it.

My belief is that Steve Thomas theory about Patsy killing JonBenet over bed-wetting is misleading. Steve Thomas knows that it was over soiling, not bed wetting only he could not or would not say it publicly.

 

[Vet4Bush]

There was even a rumor that fecal matter was found in the mouth of the dead child. If true, that definitely points to PR as the killer. I think there is a giant disconnect between the DA's office and the PD over who is guilty. I think an indication of Lacy's problems with the county staff is the fire alarm that went off when she had her news conference yesterday. You know for a fact some disgruntled staff member pulled the alarm to embarrass her before the MSM.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

A possibillity I've kicked around is that the headblow was an accident and the perp believed Jonbenet was dead. No wound on her head was visible though, so the perp came up with the "garrotte" staging to try to make it look like someone had strangled her to death.

Jonbenet was still alive (but way out cold) during the staging, and the strangulation that was done (I don't believe her trachea was crushed) contributed to her death and finished her life off.

Only problem with this line of thought is that it's required the perp did not check her vitals after the headblow...which you'd think they would...but who knows, perhaps there'd be a reason why they didn't.

 

[tumble]

Only problem with this line of thought is that it's required the perp did not check her vitals after the headblow...which you'd think they would...but who knows, perhaps there'd be a reason why they didn't.

Who knows, maybe JB was having fits after the blow. Maybe strange scary noices emerged from her as her brain was failing.
This could have caused the perp to 'loose it' and just try to stop it, JSB.

 

[Anita Richman]

Patsy requested that Pam Paugh retrieve the MyTwinnDoll during her visit to the home Dec 26. Why Patsy would want a doll JonBenet did not care for is open to interpretation.

I too believe Patsy killed her daughter in a rage. She struck JonBenet over the head with the flashlight....or possibly pushed her and struck her head on the toilet or bathtub.

Patsy was not changing a wet JonBenet....she was cleaning a soiled JonBenet. Let's not forget the soiled play pants JonBenet wore during Christmas day...found in her bathroom floor. The soiled size six panties are missing?

JonBenet did not bathe Christmas day...she only changed into her Gap outfit. Would a six-year-old change her soiled underwear....my guess is no. She wore her soiled panties to the Whites....(I say this only because no feces was found on the size 12 panties) and then wiped down by Patsy during their routine 12pm potty check. Try wiping down a soiled six-year-old who hated to be awakened and is kicking and screaming bloody murder. It was that moment that Patsy lost it.

My belief is that Steve Thomas theory about Patsy killing JonBenet over bed-wetting is misleading. Steve Thomas knows that it was over soiling, not bed wetting only he could not or would not say it publicly.

Wow. Very interesting thoughts, Toltec. Did you mean 12 AM, though?