rpipergirl
proud owner Kidmissing
I've got SSDI up in background for genealogy so I'll look up Macek's in IL. I'll let you know what I find.
IL IL - Debbie Fijan, 10, DuPage County, 11 Feb 1966 - #1
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rpipergirl
proud owner Kidmissing
I found Marie. She died in Jun. 1971.
I also found an Edward Sr. who by DOB has to be the son died Feb. 1966.
I did not find Otto or old Edward. Hope this helps.
A brief summuary from an article in the Chicago Tribune (Sep 10, 1974) titled: Mother, Girl Found Slain in Burning Flat
Nancy Lossman, 27 was found naked with a knotted cord around her neck, she was in the bedroom.
Lisa Lossman, 3 was found in her bathrobe in the bathroom with her mother's bra wrapped around her neck and her head had been pushed in the water of the toliet.
Robert Lossman, 6 found unconscious on a bed. His Uncle rescued him. The uncle lived on the third floor and saw smoke coming from her apartment.
Nancy had been strangled, had a fractured skull and teeth marks on her right breast.
Lisa had been strangled.
A fire was set in the hallway of the apartment. The fire was believed to be set to cover up the crime. Drawers in one bedroom were pulled out and ransacked but LE didn't know if anything was missing.
Nancy Lossman, 27 was found naked with a knotted cord around her neck, she was in the bedroom.
Lisa Lossman, 3 was found in her bathrobe in the bathroom with her mother's bra wrapped around her neck and her head had been pushed in the water of the toliet.
Robert Lossman, 6 found unconscious on a bed. His Uncle rescued him. The uncle lived on the third floor and saw smoke coming from her apartment.
Nancy had been strangled, had a fractured skull and teeth marks on her right breast.
Lisa had been strangled.
A fire was set in the hallway of the apartment. The fire was believed to be set to cover up the crime. Drawers in one bedroom were pulled out and ransacked but LE didn't know if anything was missing.
Here are a few snippets from this article that I found interesting. These are from about three-quarters down the article.
According to Morrison, a lawman with "darkly animated" hands named Louis Tomaselli introduced her to the challenging work of profiling serial killers in 1977. In that year, according to her resume, she was three years out of medical school and completing a research fellowship in neurochemistry at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Tomaselli, she writes, approached her in a lecture hall, identified himself as a special agent with the FBI, and showed her gruesome photographs relating to an unsolved homicide.
"Tomaselli had come up against a seemingly insurmountable brick wall," writes Morrison. "He and the FBI could not find the perpetrator of the vile crime." The pictures were of a woman who'd been "brutally stabbed several times" and whose eyelids had been slit with a penknife. Tomaselli asked Morrison if she'd ever seen anything like it. Morrison examined the slits. "It almost looked like the kind of primitive, ritual cutting common to ancient cultures," she writes. "But it was clear this modern-day act had nothing to do with long-lost magical symbols. . . . I said no, I hadn't ever seen anything like it. No longer darkly exuberant, Tomaselli stopped talking and stood there, waiting for me to say more. I looked him straight in the eye. 'But if you ever catch him, I'd like to talk to him.'"
And here is where Tomaselli responds: "FBI?" he said. "Sure I'm FBI--full-blooded Italian. Except my job was special agent for the Wisconsin Department of Justice. I don't know why people think the FBI has some special jurisdiction over serial murder. I guess it's from the movies and TV. And the dead woman she's talking about, Paula Cupit, was stabbed just once in the heart, not repeatedly, and she had a broken neck. There was no mutilation of the eyes or ritual mumbo jumbo--I can send you the crime-scene photos and the autopsy report to prove it." The documents he sent support his recollection.
"Helen Morrison is a fine lady--don't get me wrong," Tomaselli continued, "but I don't know where she'd get the idea I approached her. I've got a pretty good memory, and the way I recall it is we wanted to hypnotize Richie Macek to see if that would get us a better recall of some crimes. So we got Roger McKinley, who was the hypnotist we usually used--a real good guy--and he brought Helen along just as someone who was interested. But there's just no way she was officially involved in the investigation. Besides, Helen's got her timeline all screwed up. She says she met me in 1977, but Richie got locked up in 1975, so no way could I have been showing her pictures of any unsolved homicide."
So, the maid at the Abbey Resort did not have slits on her eye lids made with a penknife and was not stabbed multiple times. Tomaselli backed this up to the reporter with crime scene photos and the autopsy reports. Are there any other articles out there that state Macek's victims had wounds to their eyes? I went back and looked and couldn't find any.
It would be helpful to know if any of Debbies wounds matched the wounds of Maceks victims; the bite marks, ROM's choice of inflicting wounds to the eyes via the eyelids.
ROM clearly had a pattern which would either match or not match wounds inflicted upon Debbie.
I still feel very strongly about LS being the likely perp. But there are still a few questions with regards to Macek.
jmo
ROM clearly had a pattern which would either match or not match wounds inflicted upon Debbie.
I still feel very strongly about LS being the likely perp. But there are still a few questions with regards to Macek.
jmo
Sally was reported to have wounds to her eyes. Also, the first link Shadow posted mentioned the wounds to the eyes. I'd have to go back and look at the links again... but too tired to do that tonight.
I'm not sure if some of this is 'rift raft' between this Tomaselli guy and the author of the book who is also a doctor. It happens, LE can be specific and limited about the resources they seek outside the department. Hypnosis and a psychiatrist to assist in solving a case, rather than the courts determining a defendent needs such services.
Unless someone can prove the details the Dr wrote are more on the side of fiction, I am going to take her work into consideration.
Of course we don't have copies of police reports, autopsy reports etc. to check the accuracy of the media articles or the book... In the past I have seen some of that information ordered by WS'rs due to the FOIA, but I am not sure if we want to consider that right now. I think it is way too soon.... Especially since dfijan mentioned the detective handling the case is still in the process of reviewing the files on this case. Hopefully once the detective reviews the files he can compare them to some of Maceks cases and give it the yay or nay.
jmo
I'm not sure if some of this is 'rift raft' between this Tomaselli guy and the author of the book who is also a doctor. It happens, LE can be specific and limited about the resources they seek outside the department. Hypnosis and a psychiatrist to assist in solving a case, rather than the courts determining a defendent needs such services.
Unless someone can prove the details the Dr wrote are more on the side of fiction, I am going to take her work into consideration.
Of course we don't have copies of police reports, autopsy reports etc. to check the accuracy of the media articles or the book... In the past I have seen some of that information ordered by WS'rs due to the FOIA, but I am not sure if we want to consider that right now. I think it is way too soon.... Especially since dfijan mentioned the detective handling the case is still in the process of reviewing the files on this case. Hopefully once the detective reviews the files he can compare them to some of Maceks cases and give it the yay or nay.
jmo
I went through all the links too but I didn't see anything. All I saw on Sally was that she was brutally attacked and the bite marks. The other link that shadowangel posted I think was from Dr. Morrison basically saying the same thing. I'll back through and look again tomorrow.
I get what your saying and I agree that there was probably some rift-raft going on between the two. I found this article interesting because it did show a lot of contridictions from what she was saying and what others such as LE, former FBI agents, etc.. had to say. And the fact that Tomaselli sent the reporter the crime scene photos and autopsy. I don't know why he would bother doing that if it backed up what Morrison was saying and why would the reporter lie?
USA - Macek, Richard Otto - The Mad Biter - Truly Unusual
This is the link that shadowangel posted on page 15, post 353. Look at the bottom of the first post it states-Note: In researching Richard Malek for this article the only reference about him we could find was Dr. Morrison's book "My Life Among The Serial Killers".
This is the link that shadowangel posted on page 15, post 353. Look at the bottom of the first post it states-Note: In researching Richard Malek for this article the only reference about him we could find was Dr. Morrison's book "My Life Among The Serial Killers".
I thought the article was interesting too Abbey5.
And the link Shadow posted and you reposted to bring current did list the only source on Macek as the Doctors book.
Let's keep in mind, Tomaselli was in Wisconsin. We came upon comparing the two cases based on Sally Kandels case in Carol Stream, IL. two miles away from where Debbie was found. As far as I know Tomaselli, being from Wisconsin, would have little to no information on Sally's case and another man, the wrong man, had been convicted for her murder. I don't know why Tomaselli would have any interest in Illinois cases because at the time, Macek had not been convicted in IL outside the few years he did in Joliet.....
The link did report that Sally's eyelids were slit.
Macek did his prison time in Wisconsin. There could be a lack of communiction between both states having all the details on what happened in the other state simply because communication tools were different then..... computers versus hand written notes....
When comparing Debbies case, while they are not identical there are some similiarities. Debbies murder was at least 6 years before the other murders. Macek was 18 when Debbie was murdered. It is possible -some- of the details are similiar and Macek did things differently, became more agressive as his murder spree progressed. I have almost no knowledge on serial killers but I would have to take a guess that for them, murdering someone is kind of like drugs, after awhile they build a tolerance and need a greater fix, hence possibly becoming more agressive rather than repeated rituals... but that is just a guess.
It is known that Macek DID bite his victims. We don't know if Debbie was bitten or not.
We do know Sally was bitten.
It is up to us to 'put it on the table' like Shadow said, and LE can decide the similiarities are close enough to warrant a further look or not. We don't have the benefit of having all the info LE has (though I wish we did sometimes!) so we can only work with what we have access to...
If Shadow is able to make contact with the Doctor/Author and give her some info on Debbies case, she may very well confirm Debbies case does not fit in with Maceks MO. We just have to keep digging. I don't think we can rule out based on Tomaselli's statements about the Doctor in that he is commenting on timelines and who was who regarding involvement which occured in Wisconsin.
jmo
:blowkiss:
And the link Shadow posted and you reposted to bring current did list the only source on Macek as the Doctors book.
Let's keep in mind, Tomaselli was in Wisconsin. We came upon comparing the two cases based on Sally Kandels case in Carol Stream, IL. two miles away from where Debbie was found. As far as I know Tomaselli, being from Wisconsin, would have little to no information on Sally's case and another man, the wrong man, had been convicted for her murder. I don't know why Tomaselli would have any interest in Illinois cases because at the time, Macek had not been convicted in IL outside the few years he did in Joliet.....
The link did report that Sally's eyelids were slit.
Macek did his prison time in Wisconsin. There could be a lack of communiction between both states having all the details on what happened in the other state simply because communication tools were different then..... computers versus hand written notes....
When comparing Debbies case, while they are not identical there are some similiarities. Debbies murder was at least 6 years before the other murders. Macek was 18 when Debbie was murdered. It is possible -some- of the details are similiar and Macek did things differently, became more agressive as his murder spree progressed. I have almost no knowledge on serial killers but I would have to take a guess that for them, murdering someone is kind of like drugs, after awhile they build a tolerance and need a greater fix, hence possibly becoming more agressive rather than repeated rituals... but that is just a guess.
It is known that Macek DID bite his victims. We don't know if Debbie was bitten or not.
We do know Sally was bitten.
It is up to us to 'put it on the table' like Shadow said, and LE can decide the similiarities are close enough to warrant a further look or not. We don't have the benefit of having all the info LE has (though I wish we did sometimes!) so we can only work with what we have access to...
If Shadow is able to make contact with the Doctor/Author and give her some info on Debbies case, she may very well confirm Debbies case does not fit in with Maceks MO. We just have to keep digging. I don't think we can rule out based on Tomaselli's statements about the Doctor in that he is commenting on timelines and who was who regarding involvement which occured in Wisconsin.
jmo
:blowkiss:
shadowangel
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After reading the article, it seems that both (all?) sides have their own agenda. I agree, the book is written in a simplistic manner, and I haven't even tried to sort out Dr. Morrison's theories (and I've also read everything that former FBI agent and profiler John Douglas has written as well). But, the article does misquote the good doc (unless the author of the article is speaking to conversations he had with Dr Morrison, and not the book--But in certain places, at least, it does appear he is referring to MLATSK). She never said that Macek masturbated with the panties he stole; she also never states that Ed Gein kept his dear old mom in the house (during an interview, she said that "its been said that you..." in order to see Gein's reaction).
Louis Tomaselli was in fact NOT an FBI agent, but a Special Agent with the Wisconsin State Department of Criminal Investigation (a fairly large gaffe on the part of Dr. Morrison, whether intentional or not only she knows). His timeline, however, isn't correct either; Macek was arrested at the end of 1975, yes, but not for the murder of Linda Cupit (on December 5th, he was arrested for the hotel rape; between then and April of 1976, he signed confessions to that rape and the murder of Linda Cupit).
It wasnt until the end of February 1977 that he was convicted for Cupit's murder, closing the case; here Dr Morrison errs, stating that the meeting with Special Agent Tomaselli occurred in March.
So what does all this boil down to? The murder of Linda Cupit may, or may not, have had special circumstances in common with other murders, such as Debbie's. However, what still stands, is that Macek killed a young girl not far from where Debbie had been murdered 6 years prior. For some reason, despite all we know at this point about the case, a grand jury refused to indict Loren Schofield for that murder. My personal belief, and that is all it is, is that there was some piece of evidence which we don't know about---may never have been made public---which swayed the jury's opinion. State's Attorney Hopf, according to my research, was not a man who liked losing. I don't see this man allowing a grand jury to "O.J." him. There must be, I'm convinced, something else which we just don't know.
However, the investigators in this case know, and with 40 years of history to sift through...I think we owe it to Debbie to assist them in any way we can, opening up avenues of thought that were forgotten or never taken in the first place.
Louis Tomaselli was in fact NOT an FBI agent, but a Special Agent with the Wisconsin State Department of Criminal Investigation (a fairly large gaffe on the part of Dr. Morrison, whether intentional or not only she knows). His timeline, however, isn't correct either; Macek was arrested at the end of 1975, yes, but not for the murder of Linda Cupit (on December 5th, he was arrested for the hotel rape; between then and April of 1976, he signed confessions to that rape and the murder of Linda Cupit).
It wasnt until the end of February 1977 that he was convicted for Cupit's murder, closing the case; here Dr Morrison errs, stating that the meeting with Special Agent Tomaselli occurred in March.
So what does all this boil down to? The murder of Linda Cupit may, or may not, have had special circumstances in common with other murders, such as Debbie's. However, what still stands, is that Macek killed a young girl not far from where Debbie had been murdered 6 years prior. For some reason, despite all we know at this point about the case, a grand jury refused to indict Loren Schofield for that murder. My personal belief, and that is all it is, is that there was some piece of evidence which we don't know about---may never have been made public---which swayed the jury's opinion. State's Attorney Hopf, according to my research, was not a man who liked losing. I don't see this man allowing a grand jury to "O.J." him. There must be, I'm convinced, something else which we just don't know.
However, the investigators in this case know, and with 40 years of history to sift through...I think we owe it to Debbie to assist them in any way we can, opening up avenues of thought that were forgotten or never taken in the first place.
Communicating with 'old folks' regarding cold cases....
A conversation with my dad about Debbies case. My dad was born in 41 and grew up in Chicago. Moved here to the burbs in the late 60's....
Hi Dad, have you ever golfed at the old wayne golf course? Yes....
Did you know a 10 yr old girl was murdered ( a month before I was born) and found at Fair Oaks and Lies and the case was never solved?
my dad: You mean by the forest preserve?
me: Yes, dad.
My dad: Your kidding! in a louder tone than I have heard in a long time.
I was telling my dad, just how much I loved the area Debbie was from, Littlewood, I think is the subdivision name.
and a little bit about Sally's case....
If folks around here are anything like my dad.... their greatest knowledge about even autism was what they learned from the movie Rainman.
Folk around here tend to stick to what they need to know... especially if they are older...
I am hoping to find some old folks who might know of Debbies case.
I wanted so badly to get out of my car and walk the old neigborhood. There was some cute old guys.. you know the old ones with white hair who looked like golfers and had been in the neighborhood forever....
Next time I go I am gonna get out of the car and ask....
There is no cross, no memorial for Debbie at the intersection.. I would like to find out how to do that too.... with her picture...
Some neighborhoods, I know have sign ordinances.. and you can't even put up open house signs.... so will look and ask.
Debbie, I will never ever forget you...and I would like to get to know a little more about you, even though you went to heaven just a month before I was born.
XXOO
Cubby
A conversation with my dad about Debbies case. My dad was born in 41 and grew up in Chicago. Moved here to the burbs in the late 60's....
Hi Dad, have you ever golfed at the old wayne golf course? Yes....
Did you know a 10 yr old girl was murdered ( a month before I was born) and found at Fair Oaks and Lies and the case was never solved?
my dad: You mean by the forest preserve?
me: Yes, dad.
My dad: Your kidding! in a louder tone than I have heard in a long time.
I was telling my dad, just how much I loved the area Debbie was from, Littlewood, I think is the subdivision name.
and a little bit about Sally's case....
If folks around here are anything like my dad.... their greatest knowledge about even autism was what they learned from the movie Rainman.
Folk around here tend to stick to what they need to know... especially if they are older...
I am hoping to find some old folks who might know of Debbies case.
I wanted so badly to get out of my car and walk the old neigborhood. There was some cute old guys.. you know the old ones with white hair who looked like golfers and had been in the neighborhood forever....
Next time I go I am gonna get out of the car and ask....
There is no cross, no memorial for Debbie at the intersection.. I would like to find out how to do that too.... with her picture...
Some neighborhoods, I know have sign ordinances.. and you can't even put up open house signs.... so will look and ask.
Debbie, I will never ever forget you...and I would like to get to know a little more about you, even though you went to heaven just a month before I was born.
XXOO
Cubby
shadowangel
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I'm thinking there was something in the water in Elmwood Park...I was researching the elementary schools and came across an October, 1957 article in which was detailed the stabbing attack on two girls from the area. Police were checking Elmwood Park elementary schools for a boy, thought to be 13 or 14, with blonde hair, who stabbed the two girls in seperate incidents then rode off on a bike. (My first thought of course was Macek, who was around 9 at the time and had blonde hair....And attended elementary school in Elmwood Park).
However, an article from a few days later (PITAPTV, as Cubby would say) states that the father of one of the girls nabbed the boy (whose last name appears to be "Click".)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=2391,275438&dq=elmwood-park+stabbed&hl=en
DAD OF VICTIM GRABS STABBER OF TWO GIRLS
[SIZE=-1]Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver[SIZE=-1] - Oct 18, 1957[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]A boy identified as the knifer who stabbed two Elmwood Park girls on Monday was seized yesterday after one of the victims recognized him as he rode his ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
However, an article from a few days later (PITAPTV, as Cubby would say) states that the father of one of the girls nabbed the boy (whose last name appears to be "Click".)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=2391,275438&dq=elmwood-park+stabbed&hl=en
DAD OF VICTIM GRABS STABBER OF TWO GIRLS
[SIZE=-1]Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver[SIZE=-1] - Oct 18, 1957[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]A boy identified as the knifer who stabbed two Elmwood Park girls on Monday was seized yesterday after one of the victims recognized him as he rode his ... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
There is no cross, no memorial for Debbie at the intersection.. I would like to find out how to do that too.... with her picture...
and with permission from her family.
I think people in the area need to know who Debbie was....
My step dad knows all that carpenter stuff.... from rehabbing houses to boats. to.... he is retired LE from way out in Sandwich (west but south of where LS's family went west...) and McLean county Il.
He said he would help make a memorial cross for Debbie...
and I will bug whoever I know from my old days as a realtor in the area to get whatever permission is needed.
and with permission from her family.
I think people in the area need to know who Debbie was....
My step dad knows all that carpenter stuff.... from rehabbing houses to boats. to.... he is retired LE from way out in Sandwich (west but south of where LS's family went west...) and McLean county Il.
He said he would help make a memorial cross for Debbie...
and I will bug whoever I know from my old days as a realtor in the area to get whatever permission is needed.
Elmwood park, back in the day.. and for a long time is an old Italian neighborhood. Macek is a polish name.... I'm trying to tie in any old polish ties to Elmwood park. For ??? maybe just brain storming.....
If you really read back far into old Chicago stuff, there were a lot of hoodlums.
Even mayor daley jr is linked to "gangs" going back to the 30's?
If you really read back far into old Chicago stuff, there were a lot of hoodlums.
Even mayor daley jr is linked to "gangs" going back to the 30's?
shadowangel
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I think that's a great idea...And at the least it will get people thinking about the case again (it was my childhood memory of a memorial sign about the Sodder children that got people interested in that disappearance).
If its on private property and at least 4 ft off the roadway, I don't think you'll have any problems.
The reason I brought up Tomaselli is because he had proof as to how the maid at the Abbey Resort died...the crime scene photos and autopsy report (which he supplied to the reporter of this article). I am only trying to gather info on RM, his victims and people that he is accused of victimizing.
I have no idea if Tomaselli had any interests in the IL cases. He stated that he brought in a hypnotist to try and get more info out of RM about his crimes.
And yes, the link that I reposted did report Sally's eyelids were slit. This message board was written by someone who noted at the end of the post that his only reference is Dr. Morrison. I am not trying to discredit Dr. Morrison in anyway but she is the only one who reports slits to the eyes. I have yet to read any other articles were it is stated that Sally or any of his other victims had slit marks on their eyes. And I mean news articles not articles written about interviews with Morrison.
I definitely think RM should be looked at considering how close these two cases are to each other.
I am only trying to sift through all of the info out there on RM.
shadowangel
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I understand. That's one of the biggest problems we face...Not being law enforcement connected to these cases ourselves, we're basically at the mercy of those we hope we can trust at some level to provide the information we need.
shadowangel
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Even going back a bit further...All the reports we've read and posted make a huge deal of Debbie riding with LS on several occasions, but Debbie's brother has posted here that this never happened.
Tomaselli's comments do bring up a point that really burns me, and it happens all too often. That is, retiring law enforcement keeping (or taking) evidence as 'souvenirs'. Its been said that if all the evidence in regard to the Zodiac (the original) that's been taken home and stuffed in boxes were made available and reviewed, that case would have been solved decades ago.
Tomaselli's comments do bring up a point that really burns me, and it happens all too often. That is, retiring law enforcement keeping (or taking) evidence as 'souvenirs'. Its been said that if all the evidence in regard to the Zodiac (the original) that's been taken home and stuffed in boxes were made available and reviewed, that case would have been solved decades ago.
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