IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #3

[tcer114]

Did you see when the press asked Covelli about the gps?
I think that might be the first time he thought about it.

I didn't see the Q&A, what was his answer?

 

[vestigare]

Terrible to read of Kyle's misfortune.

It happens,what a lot of people don't understand about the Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin area is that the window of time of relatively hot weather is short and it's really common to see people who don't adapt well.

I say this as someone who was raised in Central Florida,craves hot weather and can't get enough of it.Many folks in this area avoid being outside when it's any warmer than the low 80's.

I've ridden thousands of miles on Motorcycles in this area,after staring at snow all winter long,there's nothing better to me than being in the wind at 60 mph no matter how it is.I still laugh at how empty typically busy biker type hangouts are when the temps rise.That said not hydrating can sneak up on you in a bad way,been there done that.

Yes, wind can be very dehydrating. Downhill skiing ugh....

 

[vestigare]

I didn't see the Q&A, what was his answer?

Something like "can't comment on that."
I seriously wondered if it was the first time he heard they could check that.

 

[tcer114]

Yes, wind can be very dehydrating. Downhill skiing ugh....

Individuals react differently to heat and humidity. Other factors do come in to play such as how well someone was hydrated or maybe taking a medication that might make them react to the heat more quickly than normal. Some people just adapt to heat and humidity better than others, just like some adapt better to our extreme winters.

 

[vestigare]

Individuals react differently to heat and humidity. Other factors do come in to play such as how well someone was hydrated or maybe taking a medication that might make them react to the heat more quickly than normal. Some people just adapt to heat and humidity better than others, just like some adapt better to our extreme winters.

yes, but being over heated is not heat exhaustion requiring evacuation. Just like being very cold isn't hypothermia.

400 men and more than two needed evacuated? Something isn't right there.

 

[Chuz Life]

And he didn't say some became over heated. He said evacuated.
Standard protocol is you put the person somewhere cooler, give them water and if they don't improve in 30 minutes or get worse quickly then you evacuate.

So, more than one person didn't get better with a cold cloth and a cool drink?

Or is it likely this was big news and some people like attention and a little workmans comp?

Who but people with no love of the police are going to question someone out on a pleasant 88 degree day looking for a cop killer?

I can appreciate the sarcasm.

The first thought that came to my mind when I read about "evacuations" for "heat exhaustion" was that someone was hyping their involvement for their own ego or to grab some attention.

Edit: I am out of shape myself. I am getting older and I'm overweight. I work in a factory with very poor air circulation. There is no AC and when it is 80 degrees outside it's usually over 90 inside the plant. When the heat index gets high enough, we MIGHT get an addition 5 minutes on our breaks. We are encouraged to drink lots of water and that's about it. The plant is easily more than a quarter mile long, for what that is worth. I don't doubt for a minute that the searchers and their dogs were working hard and frantic that day. But, come on. . . there really was no excuse to not get some relief if relief was needed.

 

[bookboarder]

I have lived in a few places that experience some degree of moderate-extreme heat. I was born in the St. Louis area, moved to the desert of California, then Las Vegas for a very short time and now I'm in Louisiana. I am a VERY fair-skinned, auburn-ish hair-colored girl. I have had heat exhaustion in each of those locations requiring hospitalization. I have had heat stroke on one occasion. My body does very poorly in heat, even if I don't reach the "heat exhaustion" levels. I start vomiting, turn bright red and develop excruciating and blinding headaches. My normal body temp runs on the low side [actually near what is considered hypothermic level] naturally.

So Cal and Las Vegas had, by far, the hottest temperatures by degrees. However, a 105 F day in So Cal feels cooler than a 92 F day in New Orleans when you've got 70% humidity. I'm basically a prisoner indoors in the summer unless I really want to become sick. Even coastal Louisiana is much cooler than within the city limits of NOLA because they get some breeze off the Gulf. Because the city sits in a virtual bowl [I live at 1 ft above sea level, but stayed with inlaws whose whom was actually below sea level for some time. The heat in the bowl that is New Orleans is ungodly. You will be soaked to the bone if you take a walk at midday in the city. Believe it or not, the midwest has a very similar heat. It gets very humid and there is no ocean breeze to help cool it off. I almost died as an infant because the first home my parents lived in had no A/C. We actually had to move because of it.

If you get dehydrated enough at ANY temperature you will begin to get Tachycardia as your heart has to pump faster to move the less-hydrated blood through your dehydrated veins. This tachycardia can then raise your temp and land you in heat exhaustion.

The best heat exhaustion story I have though was while snowboarding. My husband, being a Louisiana native was over-dressed for the mild temps in the 30s and HE ended up with heat exhaustion and dehydration in the middle of a mountain ski resort.

The point is, heat effects everyone VERY differently. My husband and I can be doing the exact same thing, we're both physically fit and he'll have zero reaction to the heat other than sweating. Me-- I'm turning into a tomato, nauseated or vomiting and developing a headache within a few minutes.

BUT I can outlast him like a BOSS in the cold. Hence the reason he is presently asleep with a top sheet, a comforter and a heavy quilt folded doubly over him while I can hardly stand to have just the top sheet on me.

 

[vestigare]

I have lived in a few places that experience some degree of moderate-extreme heat. I was born in the St. Louis area, moved to the desert of California, then Las Vegas for a very short time and now I'm in Louisiana. I am a VERY fair-skinned, auburn-ish hair-colored girl. I have had heat exhaustion in each of those locations requiring hospitalization. I have had heat stroke on one occasion. My body does very poorly in heat, even if I don't reach the "heat exhaustion" levels. I start vomiting, turn bright red and develop excruciating and blinding headaches. My normal body temp runs on the low side [actually near what is considered hypothermic level] naturally.

So Cal and Las Vegas had, by far, the hottest temperatures by degrees. However, a 105 F day in So Cal feels cooler than a 92 F day in New Orleans when you've got 70% humidity. I'm basically a prisoner indoors in the summer unless I really want to become sick. Even coastal Louisiana is much cooler than within the city limits of NOLA because they get some breeze off the Gulf. Because the city sits in a virtual bowl [I live at 1 ft above sea level, but stayed with inlaws whose whom was actually below sea level for some time. The heat in the bowl that is New Orleans is ungodly. You will be soaked to the bone if you take a walk at midday in the city. Believe it or not, the midwest has a very similar heat. It gets very humid and there is no ocean breeze to help cool it off. I almost died as an infant because the first home my parents lived in had no A/C. We actually had to move because of it.

If you get dehydrated enough at ANY temperature you will begin to get Tachycardia as your heart has to pump faster to move the less-hydrated blood through your dehydrated veins. This tachycardia can then raise your temp and land you in heat exhaustion.

The best heat exhaustion story I have though was while snowboarding. My husband, being a Louisiana native was over-dressed for the mild temps in the 30s and HE ended up with heat exhaustion and dehydration in the middle of a mountain ski resort.

The point is, heat effects everyone VERY differently. My husband and I can be doing the exact same thing, we're both physically fit and he'll have zero reaction to the heat other than sweating. Me-- I'm turning into a tomato, nauseated or vomiting and developing a headache within a few minutes.

BUT I can outlast him like a BOSS in the cold. Hence the reason he is presently asleep with a top sheet, a comforter and a heavy quilt folded doubly over him while I can hardly stand to have just the top sheet on me.

The point is this was a trained K9 handler. They are not trained to just do their job in 65 degree light wind after a hearty brunch while walking on flat ground.

All.of these people supposedly had very expensive training and were being commanded by someone. So it is inexcusable that they were suffering in these conditions.
Sure everyone reacts differently to heat and that is why everyone can't do every job.
Obviously these people should be evaluated whether they are physically capable of continuing to receive a govt paycheck.the same goes for their commanders and trainers.

Yes, I am harsh.

 

[vestigare]

Dogs overheat much quicker than humans as well.

 

[Cubby]

The other article said the same thing. Maybe I should have linked the other article? Is daily herald not trustworthy?

The Daily Herald is fine. It is the the largest suburban paper and covers the NW burbs. The Patch is also considered credible.

 

[al66pine]

The task force would be best to just stay away from any of the press for now. They don't help themselves anytime they open their mouth.
At this point I would hope they have hired an excellent PR firm.

Agreeing w you - task force's media contact has not helped own image.

^re bbm respectfully, imo, LE (city PD, sheriff ofc, state, fed, what-ev) should not need to hire excellent PR firms. Gen'ly, imo -
-if & when "PR" is needed, either chief (of small forces) or public info officers-employees (of large forces) should have skills to deal w media, and
-when a LE agency makes big boo-boos, public funds should not be spent on PR firms, to try to enhance or rehabilitate the agency's image.

People should be held responsible for their actions, e.g. elected officials can be voted out of office and/or people appointed to position can be subject to employee discipline, asked to leave, or be fired. Why should LE hire PR firms at all? It is what it is.

Has any task force member's actions risen to level of serious official malfeasance or dereliction of duty warranting ^ termination, etc? Not enough info imo, so IDK yet, but as vestigare said - opening mouths to media has not helped.
All ^ JM2cts, could be wrong.

 

[al66pine]

Why was the handler allowed to be out there so long as well? Someone was in charge. Someone had a map with a grid and knew what dog was doing what search where and when they began. I don't know if they were flagging as they went or Gps locating but they were mapping and someone should have said "hey charlie do you need a drink, hows the dog, got anything? Especially if charlie handler hadn't radioed in recently. Or maybe none of that was happening because this was utter chaos with people just jumping in to "help" in the manhunt without any real task or goal or procedure.
It just seems this was a lot of playing around and not alot of actual task forcing. Or command centering.

re ^ bbm. Multiple forces were involved in the manhunt very quickly. Obviously Fox Lake PD.
How many other -
- village/town/city PDs?
- county sheriff or county LE?
- state LE?
- fed LE agencies?
- S & R groups?
Does anyone have a link handy about how many forces or jurisdictions? How many LEOs or other individuals?

How quickly were radio/email/text communication trees set up, so FL-PD Chief or designee could communicate to all at the scene? And to others as they joined/came to scene, later in the a.m. or day?
From time Lt's body was located, could FL-PD Chief or designee immediately communicate in real time to all there? IDK.

IIRC, forty plus dogs & handlers (~48?). Can a police chief or designee instantly coordinate simultaneous assignments to handlers from diff forces and dogs w various skill sets (sorry, IDK all the term'gy, but cadaver or HR locating, drug-sniffing, air-scenting, bomb-detecting, etc.) Do some of <--- these dogs not have approp training & skills for a manhunt to locate the three 'suspects' the Lt described? IDK, so asking.

In my ignorance re LE protocol, gen'ly or for FLPD specifically, I can imagine - manhunt efforts in the morning or first day were hampered by lack of mechanics or logistics for communicating "any real task or goal or procedure," or "utter chaos" as vestigare posted.Imo, it may be an understandable cluster-cluck, which can be corrected before future events.

JM2cts, cd be all wrong. Hoping posters in LE or familiar w LE procedure will chime in w their perspectives.

 

[Boo Radley]

I have to attend to some things but I am interested in your opinions. There seems to be righteous anger felt by Cady and Vestigare towards just about everything these cops have done. The police officers I've known have always wanted to do the best they could. I just have a hard time believing that they would purposefully screw up so badly.

I agree that most LE officers are well intentioned and want to do the best that they can. However, this situation was extremely demanding physically, professionally, organizationally, intellectually, and emotionally. Some officers may be lacking in one or more of these areas. These shortcomings may also be magnified when analyzed with the benefit of hindsight. LE officials sometimes make the situation worse if they put their ego and arrogance ahead of honesty and transparency. This happens all to often.

On the topic of "heat exhaustion", it was obviously a hot and humid day. We all know that some officers are in better shape than others. (You can also have incredibly fit officers who have severe shortcomings in other areas.) Because of the weather, there was also a level 5 box alarm for ambulances during the incident which brought a few dozen ambulances to the scene. The paramedics staffing the ambulances are well trained and equipped to offer cooling, hydration, evaluation, and treament if necessary. They do this routinely for firefighters as a standard procedure to help prevent heat related illnesses at fire scenes. I don't know what exactly was meant when it was reported that the dog handler was "evacuated" but under no circumstance would his condition warrant transport by helicopter. There is no treatment that a paramedic ambulance crew could not perform and no time advantage offered by air transport in this situation. It appears to be a potential case of exaggerated or misleading information that is being released in response to the scrutiny and/or criticism that they are facing.

 

[vestigare]

Agreeing w you - task force's media contact has not helped own image.

^re bbm respectfully, imo, LE (city PD, sheriff ofc, state, fed, what-ev) should not need to hire excellent PR firms. Gen'ly, imo -
-if & when "PR" is needed, either chief (of small forces) or public info officers-employees (of large forces) should have skills to deal w media, and
-when a LE agency makes big boo-boos, public funds should not be spent on PR firms, to try to enhance or rehabilitate the agency's image.

People should be held responsible for their actions, e.g. elected officials can be voted out of office and/or people appointed to position can be subject to employee discipline, asked to leave, or be fired. Why should LE hire PR firms at all? It is what it is.

Has any task force member's actions risen to level of serious official malfeasance or dereliction of duty warranting ^ termination, etc? Not enough info imo, so IDK yet, but as vestigare said - opening mouths to media has not helped.
All ^ JM2cts, could be wrong.

Unfortunately, chiefs of police and PD information officers are rarely trained to handle the media. I agree spending taxpayer money on PR is horrible but they have discretionary budget and when next years budget is discussed with the town or county that should be pointed to as why they don't deserve an increase and if anything some people should be fired.

I believe Covelli is.the Information officer on the task.force. he doesn't strike me as particlarly savvy when dealing.with the media or information.

 

[vestigare]

re ^ bbm. Multiple forces were involved in the manhunt very quickly. Obviously Fox Lake PD.
How many other -
- village/town/city PDs?
- county sheriff or county LE?
- state LE?
- fed LE agencies?
- S & R groups?
Does anyone have a link handy about how many forces or jurisdictions? How many LEOs or other individuals?

How quickly were radio/email/text communication trees set up, so FL-PD Chief or designee could communicate to all at the scene? And to others as they joined/came to scene, later in the a.m. or day?
From time Lt's body was located, could FL-PD Chief or designee immediately communicate in real time to all there? IDK.

IIRC, forty plus dogs & handlers (~48?). Can a police chief or designee instantly coordinate simultaneous assignments to handlers from diff forces and dogs w various skill sets (sorry, IDK all the term'gy, but cadaver or HR locating, drug-sniffing, air-scenting, bomb-detecting, etc.) Do some of <--- these dogs not have approp training & skills for a manhunt to locate the three 'suspects' the Lt described? IDK, so asking.

In my ignorance re LE protocol, gen'ly or for FLPD specifically, I can imagine - manhunt efforts in the morning or first day were hampered by lack of mechanics or logistics for communicating "any real task or goal or procedure," or "utter chaos" as vestigare posted.Imo, it may be an understandable cluster-cluck, which can be corrected before future events.

JM2cts, cd be all wrong. Hoping posters in LE or familiar w LE procedure will chime in w their perspectives.

Someone was in command on that scene. I don't know who and I don't think they were doing a good job but there was someone. I am sure there was some problems between fed and local as well.

However, even local PDs are part of huge training exercises to help mitigate these problems. Not everyone will be part of those exercises but generally you will have coordinators from each department who you know you report to and they will have been trained to report to others etc....

This was stressed after 9/11 and is part of the federal money they receive for all their toys.

But I do think this was still a complete duck up. They were, from looking at media, running around without much direction or at least none that made much sense. I believe for many this was treated as an exercise and an excuse to take out the sniper rifles and the tactical vehicles and ride around hanging out of helicopters.

There needs to be a serious investigation into this manhunt and people need to stop just giving govt a blank check to do whatever.
Even if this was a homicide there was no excuse for what we saw and what has transpired afterwards. None.

 

[vestigare]

I agree that most LE officers are well intentioned and want to do the best that they can. However, this situation was extremely demanding physically, professionally, organizationally, intellectually, and emotionally. Some officers may be lacking in one or more of these areas. These shortcomings may also be magnified when analyzed with the benefit of hindsight. LE officials sometimes make the situation worse if they put their ego and arrogance ahead of honesty and transparency. This happens all to often.

On the topic of "heat exhaustion", it was obviously a hot and humid day. We all know that some officers are in better shape than others. (You can also have incredibly fit officers who have severe shortcomings in other areas.) Because of the weather, there was also a level 5 box alarm for ambulances during the incident which brought a few dozen ambulances to the scene. The paramedics staffing the ambulances are well trained and equipped to offer cooling, hydration, evaluation, and treament if necessary. They do this routinely for firefighters as a standard procedure to help prevent heat related illnesses at fire scenes. I don't know what exactly was meant when it was reported that the dog handler was "evacuated" but under no circumstance would his condition warrant transport by helicopter. There is no treatment that a paramedic ambulance crew could not perform and no time advantage offered by air transport in this situation. It appears to be a potential case of exaggerated or misleading information that is being released in response to the scrutiny and/or criticism that they are facing.

Exactly. Well said. Unfortunately with HIPAA etc we will never know exactly what transpired with the triage. I would be interested in the fundamental system of emergency medical managment they had that day however.

 

[Mountaingazer]

Someone was in command on that scene. I don't know who and I don't think they were doing a good job but there was someone. I am sure there was some problems between fed and local as well.

However, even local PDs are part of huge training exercises to help mitigate these problems. Not everyone will be part of those exercises but generally you will have coordinators from each department who you know you report to and they will have been trained to report to others etc....

This was stressed after 9/11 and is part of the federal money they receive for all their toys.

But I do think this was still a complete duck up. They were, from looking at media, running around without much direction or at least none that made much sense. I believe for many this was treated as an exercise and an excuse to take out the sniper rifles and the tactical vehicles and ride around hanging out of helicopters.

There needs to be a serious investigation into this manhunt and people need to stop just giving govt a blank check to do whatever.
Even if this was a homicide there was no excuse for what we saw and what has transpired afterwards. None.

I truly hope, if nothing else, this leads to them taking a good look at their emergency response protocols. I am actually leaning towards suicide myself, but I think everyone can agree this investigation was fumbled from the start.

I can understand the desire for numerous LEO'S to want to be there and to push themselves physically and mentally, especially for one of their own. But if you have too many physically exhausted cooks in the kitchen there's going to be mistakes. They need to have a better system in place to make the best use of their assets, because the response we saw was quite the clusterduck.

 

[TheDuchess]

I truly hope, if nothing else, this leads to them taking a good look at their emergency response protocols. I am actually leaning towards suicide myself, but I think everyone can agree this investigation was fumbled from the start.

I can understand the desire for numerous LEO'S to want to be there and to push themselves physically and mentally, especially for one of their own. But if you have too many physically exhausted cooks in the kitchen there's going to be mistakes. They need to have a better system in place to make the best use of their assets, because the response we saw was quite the clusterduck.

BBM - FYI- I don't think everyone agrees with this. I know that I don't. Even if it turns out to be a suicide.

 

[cady]

Duchess: "every trail"???We only know of one trail ,the following of which was aborted due to heat exhaustion. If the scent continued, why was it not followed ? I suspect that the scent began there and ended at the death scene. JMO

 

[vestigare]

I truly hope, if nothing else, this leads to them taking a good look at their emergency response protocols. I am actually leaning towards suicide myself, but I think everyone can agree this investigation was fumbled from the start.

I can understand the desire for numerous LEO'S to want to be there and to push themselves physically and mentally, especially for one of their own. But if you have too many physically exhausted cooks in the kitchen there's going to be mistakes. They need to have a better system in place to make the best use of their assets, because the response we saw was quite the clusterduck.

We have seen it time and time again and they rarely learn because the people rarely hold them accountable.

And this mentality that every cop from hundred of miles around needs to help needs to be dropped. Sorry, but you can't help. Your presence is not helping. It most cases it is a hindrance. Put your name on a call list with your training specialties and if you're required we will call you up. 400 are rarely if ever going to be an actual aid in an investigation of this sort.

We will see how many locals complain about this. I bet most think it was appropriate because a local "hero" was killed and they will never complain when their property taxes are raised to pay for it and the task force will never be forced to change.

I try to do what I can from the federal level but that only goes so far.