IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #3

[cady]

If the neighbor who reported to NBC that they saw CG leave for work at 6am is correct, and GPS says he was at the scene 20 min before the call then he was there at 7:30 . Also, the mayor reportedly texted him to go to work when he heard about the shooting. Did the Mayor think that it was CG's day off? He had spoken with him for 90 minutes the day or evening before. I guess since he took the squad car home, he must have been scheduled to work the next morning? Just odd that the Mayor did not seem to know that. JMO deleted my time error. sorry!............looks like he did have time for coffee and workout.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I don't recall Dr. Rudd saying he needed the uniform. Do you have a link for that?

Wouldn't the person performing the autopsy be the one removing the clothing?

A reason why the knowledge of if Lt. G was dead or still alive is important to know.
In a prior post, I think it was Walker who explained the different procedures to be followed depending on if a person is found dead or alive.
Hospital versus funeral home versus homicide coroner autopsy location, etc.
If no longer alive, there was no reason to remove any clothing prior to the coroner being brought on the scene of the shooting.

Did the investigation follow the established protocol?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

RSBM. With either of the two scenarios you mention how does a radio call about 3 suspects fit in?

A stretch I know and touched on before, but CJG doesn't want to call out the real reason he may be in trouble but needs to give some reason why he's being delayed - heck, I don't know - lol!
But, my first impression when I heard the voice (presumably G's) making the call, was it was a strange sounding voice.
Not muffled exactly but wobbly or something. I'd have to listen again but his voice sounded strange to me.

 

[liz b.]

That would mean someone would have to know he would be on the east end of Honing prior to the shooting. Who knew he would be there?

Assuming that he had a LEO partner, he, or she would likely have known. Possibly one or more family members. A friend who lived in the area ...?

 

[cady]

Wouldn't the person performing the autopsy be the one removing the clothing?

A reason why the knowledge of if Lt. G was dead or still alive is important to know.
In a prior post, I think it was Walker who explained the different procedures to be followed depending on if a person is found dead or alive.
Hospital versus funeral home versus homicide coroner autopsy location, etc.
If no longer alive, there was no reason to remove any clothing prior to the coroner being brought on the scene of the shooting.

Did the investigation follow the established protocol?

I think credit goes to Boo Radley. As for protocol, who knows. I always thought that clothing was removed at autopsy, too....but that doesn't make sense in all settings. Each item is to be described and it's condition noted, tho. JMO

 

[cady]

Assuming that he had a LEO partner, he, or she would likely have known. Possibly one or more family members. A friend who lived in the area ...?

I think he went there precisely because no one knew he would be there, because his plan was to off himself and make it look like a homicide. The PD was about two minutes away, so those who found him would be fellow officers who would start the hunt for the suspects that he reported. JMO JMO JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

I don't recall Dr. Rudd saying he needed the uniform. Do you have a link for that?[/QUOTE


Wouldn't you think that a coroner would want his clothes for the forensics? If Rudd had the body and still needs results where are the results coming from? If he gave a cause of death with just the body for autopsy can you imagine. I can't imagine. He may not have said uniform but you know what was meant. jmo idk

Police insist they are still awaiting forensic results, including gunshot residue, ballistics, and DNA. A frustrated Lake County coroner, Thomas Rudd, says he is still awaiting those reports, before he can make a final determination on how Gliniewicz died.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Fox-Lake-Officers-Son-Addresses-Suicide-Rumors-327861131.html

 

[cady]

The biggest mystery to me is why he wanted to off himself to begin with. There is a story there and maybe some day we will find out. JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

Three officers were present at the autopsy performed later that night, officials have said. Rudd and Filenko have said they have not spoken directly to each other.

http://www.nwherald.com/2015/09/10/...s-coroner-over-media-comments/anc64cl/?page=2

Has it ever been said if this is normal practice? Three officer's in attendance for autopsy. Did they take Joe's clothes off to be sent off for testing before Dr Rudd entered the room? Is it normal for the body to be naked on the table when the cononer comes in? jmo idk

 

[Cubby]

I don't recall Dr. Rudd saying he needed the uniform. Do you have a link for that?[/QUOTE


Wouldn't you think that a coroner would want his clothes for the forensics? If Rudd had the body and still needs results where are the results coming from? If he gave a cause of death with just the body for autopsy can you imagine. I can't imagine. He may not have said uniform but you know what was meant. jmo idk

Police insist they are still awaiting forensic results, including gunshot residue, ballistics, and DNA. A frustrated Lake County coroner, Thomas Rudd, says he is still awaiting those reports, before he can make a final determination on how Gliniewicz died.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Fox-Lake-Officers-Son-Addresses-Suicide-Rumors-327861131.html

You didnt say Dr. Rudd needed the results of the ballistic tests, you said he needed the clothing. Dr. Rudd doesn't perform the ballistics testing.

 

[magnolia]

The biggest mystery to me is why he wanted to off himself to begin with. There is a story there and maybe some day we will find out. JMO

IF he did commit suicide, I'm guessing he suffered from PTSD. Officers sometimes won't admit this or seek treatment. They fear possible stigma. They don't want to appear emotionally weak. IMO

 

[cady]

Three officers were present at the autopsy performed later that night, officials have said. Rudd and Filenko have said they have not spoken directly to each other.

http://www.nwherald.com/2015/09/10/...s-coroner-over-media-comments/anc64cl/?page=2

Has it ever been said if this is normal practice? Three officer's in attendance for autopsy. Did they take Joe's clothes off to be sent off for testing before Dr Rudd entered the room? Is it normal for the body to be naked on the table when the cononer comes in? jmo idk

Rudd did not perform the autopsy, Manny Montez did, per the request of Filenko, I think. I think that it is normal to have police witnesses, but I thought that it was usually a lead investigator, and perhaps the officer who found the body. 3 seems excessive, but I don't know the procedure. Sometimes autopsies are scheduled days after a death, so I think that often they are disrobed and the clothing identified and bagged and sent to labs for testing, so when the autopsy is performed, the body is naked. Not sure, but That's what I think. JMO

 

[TheDuchess]

I

I wasn't trying to be snarky when I asked, I was genuily interested in thinking maybe you could point out something I missed. I'm interpreting the evidence as discrediting the possibilty this is a homicide.

I didn't think you were being snarky and my answer didn't mean to be snarky. Try reading again in a non-snarky voice, if that helps, as I know sometimes things come across in an unintended way.

 

[Cubby]

The biggest mystery to me is why he wanted to off himself to begin with. There is a story there and maybe some day we will find out. JMO

I dont think I'm so interested in why he would committ suicide. I'm more angry that he would choose to try and make it appear as a homicide and I am heartbroken/devistated for his family at the same time. He had to know this would become a national story given the BLM movement and I can't imagine putting those I love in such misery.

There are times in my life I've been in deep dark places and wished I could just die, but knowing how my harming myself would effect those I love always kept me pushing forward... I just can't imagine doing that. I'd rather carry the misery myself than unburden myself by placing that kind of angst on those I care about most. I can't imagine how his wife and children feel if this remained a private matter, let alone it making national headlines.

 

[cady]

I dont think I'm so interested in why he would committ suicide. I'm more angry that he would choose to try and make it appear as a suicide and I am heartbroken/devistated for his family at the same time. He had to know this would become a national story given the BLM movement and I can't imagine putting those I love in such misery.

There are times in my life I've been in deep dark places and wished I could just die, but knowing how my harming myself would effect those I love always kept me pushing forward... I just can't imagine doing that. I'd rather carry the misery myself than unburden myself by placing that kind of angst on those I care about most. I can't imagine how his wife and children feel if this remained a private matter, let alone it making national headlines.

I feel the same way that you do and have had the same thoughts myself. It is absolutely the cruelest thing that a person can do to their family and loved ones, and also, the absolutely WORST thing that a n officer could do to his so beloved colleagues...to know that they must defend your reputation and theirs, especially in this era of distrust and paranoia. He did NO ONE any favors. What he did was not heroic. It was pure selfishness. JMO..............I still want to learn why.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

cady, I'm not ignoring you.
For some reason when I tried to include one of your posts within my answer, my computer froze up and I had to leave, reboot, etc.
No idea why that happened.

Thank you for crediting the correct author, Boo Radley, for the post concerning injured vs. dead person delivery procedures.
The post is interesting and details procedural info I never considered before.
As far as I recall, the issue never came up in other cases I have followed and shows how one factor/detail (when privy to it) can reveal facts that are not known to us in this case at this time.

Was Lt. G found and confirmed dead immediately?
Was a coroner called to the scene prior to Lt. G's body being removed and transported?
Was emergency medical attention performed in an attempt to resuscitate upon discovery at the scene?
Was he rushed to a hospital in an ambulance?
Who examined his wounds for the first time and at what location?
Was his clothing preserved and bagged properly?
Since the autopsy was done by another coroner (not Rudd), why does it appear Rudd was being excluded?
Isn't a second opinion valuable when trying to discern truth?

Are there factual answers to any of these questions I may have missed? Everything happened so quickly in the beginning and there was much commotion.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Three officers were present at the autopsy performed later that night, officials have said. Rudd and Filenko have said they have not spoken directly to each other.

http://www.nwherald.com/2015/09/10/...s-coroner-over-media-comments/anc64cl/?page=2

Has it ever been said if this is normal practice? Three officer's in attendance for autopsy. Did they take Joe's clothes off to be sent off for testing before Dr Rudd entered the room? Is it normal for the body to be naked on the table when the coronor comes in? jmo idk

I posted prior to the release of the news about the autopsy, that sometimes there is LE represented/present during an autopsy.
When the news came out that there were three LE representatives present during Lt. G's autopsy, I thought, "wow, three?".
Someone else posted they had a similar reaction so I knew I wasn't the only one.
My earlier comment, afaik, was lost and went unnoticed though.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Adding, someone (FBI?) should look into the autopsy and why it was done the way it was if, indeed, three LE were overseeing the procedure.
If I'm completely off base, I apologize.

 

[cady]

Rudd CAN perform autopsies, but in this case he did not. His job is to review the autopsy report done by whoever performed it, and make a determination, as Coroner, of the cause of death and the mode of death. He could not rule on mode of death based upon the autopsy, because it could have been homicide, suicide or accident. He needed more evidence as to ballistics, residue etc. He, at the time, did not even know if the killing shot was from CG's gun or another gun. He possibly has all the lab info now, so I don't know what the hold-up in ruling is, other than the new report from yesterday, that LE has evidence of a struggle at the crime scene, and a bunch of DNA (maybe) still being tested. JMO

 

[longlonglake]

I dont think I'm so interested in why he would committ suicide. I'm more angry that he would choose to try and make it appear as a suicide and I am heartbroken/devistated for his family at the same time. He had to know this would become a national story given the BLM movement and I can't imagine putting those I love in such misery.

There are times in my life I've been in deep dark places and wished I could just die, but knowing how my harming myself would effect those I love always kept me pushing forward... I just can't imagine doing that. I'd rather carry the misery myself than unburden myself by placing that kind of angst on those I care about most. I can't imagine how his wife and children feel if this remained a private matter, let alone it making national headlines.

There's a certain kind of mentality some men have (and some women) that they have to be the best at everything, and being physically fit/attractive/self-reliant/at the top of their career is the only thing in life. I imagine aging or being ill or depressed would be quite difficult for a person like that. You know that kind of military/macho/proud/perfectionistic thing. Like the Japanese soldiers in WWII who committed suicide rather than "lose face" and "honor". False pride. I'm not saying this is the case, but when I looked at the Facebook pictures, so many gave that "die with your boots on" warrior look. Not any sign of gentleness. In many pictures he and his wife are pictured giving the finger. I'm sure he was a great guy, but my sense was that he could probably be a real b^*&8%d at times. Toxicology was mentioned as being important to this case. Was he a drinker? Did he use anabolic steroids? So many things can mess with a person's mind. Someone mentioned the possibility of PTSD. Maybe he could not conceive of having to deal with anything that might make him feel weak or not in control - like therapy, old age, illness, loss of status, etc. They would rather commit suicide rather than have to deal with not being a "warrior". Sorry if this sounds off the wall, but I have known men like that.