IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #4

[tcer114]

This was more than a street being closed for several hours on one day. It was a week between the time of the shooting and the funeral. School were on lockdown and closed, the income from a big holiday weekend-which people rely on for their livelyhood was basically nil.

Personally, if this is proven to be a false report and determined a suicide, Lt. CG'S estate should be responsible for some of the financial costs.

And for the what, 100 thousand or so spent on overtime etc, I think it would be much better spent on suicide prevention for cops.

They basi ally closed a few roads the day of the manhunt and then again the day of the funeral. The schools were locked down theday of and the day after. Don't blow it out of proportion, please. You make it sound like all roads and business were closed for a week!

 

[looking4OPH]

So it was less though? Wasn't it a nice weekend too?
I just knew when the Feds pulled out that we would come on Friday and they would do a press conf to try to appease the local businesses because they couldn't let them suffer.
And sure enough they had one saying everything was fine enjoy your holiday. LOL

Yes, it was a nice weekend. Yes, it was less, but it wasn't commercial doom-n-gloom of a ghost town and flat water. The presser of the beer still flowing was kind of obvious in intent. :clap:

 

[vestigare]

http://www.lakecountyil.gov/Finance/Budget/Documents/2015_Approved_Budget.pdf

Lake County Sheriffs Budget Page 130

 

[vestigare]

Another question for task force.
-What crime do you believe was being committed by the three suspects that lead to Joe's suspicion and them shooting him rather than being questioned?

It had to have been a pretty bad crime I would think for someone to escalate from whatever felony and the possibility of serving time for that crime to killing a police officer which would guarantee you served life in prison.

 

[vestigare]

And why is the victimology taking so long? Is the family not cooperating? Was his computer locked down and his wife doesn't know the passwords? Can no one on the task force work Windows 7?
What is the problem? It isn't that difficult to interview some friends, talk to the locals who saw him regularly, Figure out what his car GPS showed. Get his phone records and look at his computers.
I would think his wife would be more than happy to hand over their financial records as well to clear up any confusion.
And she can authorize the release of his medical records now that he is dead they are not HIPAA protected in that way.

 

[marble]

Another question for task force.
-What crime do you believe was being committed by the three suspects that lead to Joe's suspicion and them shooting him rather than being questioned?

It had to have been a pretty bad crime I would think for someone to escalate from whatever felony and the possibility of serving time for that crime to killing a police officer which would guarantee you served life in prison.

A question- what is proper protocol here?
Would CG be chasing after them with his gun already out, or holstered?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'll try but I don't how this possibility can be so confusing to some.

Imagine you were the Lt.

Imagine that (who knows why?) you decided to fake a criminal encounter.

Imagine that you decided you wanted to make that encounter look like you were ambushed and stripped of your weapon.

Imagine that you decided to shoot yourself in the vest once or twice to make it look like your (imaginary) attackers got your gun away from you and then tried to kill you with it.

Imagine the first shot to your vest went as well as expected.

Imagine you then walked about a hundred feet, doing various things to make it look like a struggle took place.

Then, imagine you intended to shoot yourself (in the vest) a 2nd time and this time in the chest.

You choose an odd angle to make it look more convincing.

Imagine you do all of this with no intention of injuring or killing yourself.

Then, imagine that 2nd shot goes horribly wrong and you are dead - despite your intentions.


Did that help?

IMO if anyone is stupid enough to shoot theirself on purpose, they deserve what they get if their plan backfires.
The problem is nobody else deserves the fallout and grief the situation creates. All of the personal and community grief, fear and confusion, along with financial loss that reaches beyond PD budget concerns is too punitive as a result of what one person chose to do. Some locals took a big hit to their livelihoods due to the timing over Labor Day weekend.

Any imagined situation is possible but the theory he staged a scene without intending to end his life, is far-fetched imo.
It'll be difficult enough to accept suicide if that's what the investigation concludes. All of the same detriments to the community still apply if that's the case.

There seems to be a movement to accept suicide as an accepted choice with no questions asked.
When someone ends their own life without warning, it may end their pain but their action has power to devastate other people.

People fall off ladders and die. We don't label cause of death suicide when that happens. We call it a fatal accident.
The term accidental suicide doesn't make any sense to me.
The word suicide, all by itself, means to intentionally kill oneself.
Accidentally can't be combined with intentionally.

 

[vestigare]

A question- what is proper protocol here?
Would CG be chasing after them with his gun already out, or holstered?

Good question.
They should know what department policy is and what his training said.

 

[vestigare]

IMO if anyone is stupid enough to shoot theirself on purpose, they deserve what they get if their plan backfires.
The problem is nobody else deserves all the fallout and grief the situation creates. All the personal and community grief, fear and confusion, along with financial loss that reaches beyond PD budget concerns. Some locals took a big hit to their livelihoods due to the timing over Labor Day weekend.

Any imagined situation is possible but the theory he staged a scene without intending to end his life, is far-fetched imo.
It'll be difficult enough to accept suicide if that's what the investigation concludes. All of the same detriments to the community still apply if that's the case.

There seems to be a movement to accept suicide as an accepted choice with no questions asked.
When someone ends their own life without warning, it may end their pain but their action has power to devastate other people.

People fall off ladders and die. We don't label cause of death suicide when that happens. We call it a bad accident.
The term accidental suicide doesn't make any sense to me.
The word suicide, all by itself, means to intentionally kill oneself.
Accidentally can't be combined with intentionally.

I agree with if someone is stupid enough to try to injure themselves and kills themselves instead Oh well. Darwin award winner.
I don't personally think he was trying to injure himself and accidentally killed himself but I do understand what Chuz Life means by an accidental suicide. It wasn't meant to be suicide but he did accidentally kill himself in a manner that would look just like he intentionally did it. Does that make better sense?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm behind but have been reading a bunch of posts that include the swamp and its conditions.
In the beginning, people posted and described the terrain as more of a bog or marsh which are shallow and muddy when wet.
Is a swamp always wet? While a marsh or bog area may not be always wet?

Anyway, earlier posters commented it had been hot and dry around Sept. 1st.

Was the area wet and swampy or not?
The use of the word swampy has come to mean wet so the use of the word swamp is understandable.
Why are there conflicting reports about the conditions of the ground on that day?

 

[vestigare]

I'm behind but have been reading a bunch of posts that include the swamp and its conditions.
In the beginning, people posted and described the terrain as more of a bog or marsh which are shallow and muddy when wet.
Is a swamp always wet? While a marsh or bog area may not be always wet?

Anyway, earlier posters commented it had been hot and dry around Sept. 1st.

Was the area wet and swampy or not?
The use of the word swampy has come to mean wet so the use of the word swamp is understandable.
Why are there conflicting reports about the conditions of the ground on that day?

This area is close to the lake so could be fairly swampy year round but if people are hunting out there or walking out there and there was a business for years out there I think it must not be completely swampy and certainly not year round in the complete area.

I don't know why they keep claiming there is no footprints because of quicksand or whatever but then claim no footprints from mud or caking on treads being dropped in locations. You can't have both.

It would be nice to get a news videographer out there to walk that area and give us an indication of the location of body, where his car was parked, the tagged buildings and the condition of the land.

 

[marble]

And why is the victimology taking so long? Is the family not cooperating? Was his computer locked down and his wife doesn't know the passwords? Can no one on the task force work Windows 7?
What is the problem? It isn't that difficult to interview some friends, talk to the locals who saw him regularly, Figure out what his car GPS showed. Get his phone records and look at his computers.
I would think his wife would be more than happy to hand over their financial records as well to clear up any confusion.
And she can authorize the release of his medical records now that he is dead they are not HIPAA protected in that way.

Given that if this was homicide the phrase "possible ambush" would have to be on the table, I'd hope they'd be looking into this. If it was a set-up as some posters have mentioned as being a possibility, they'd need to look very carefully at all of his known correspondence, search history, etc. leading up to his death. That said, I'm not sure (like, I doubt) that information will be released to the public, so maybe they actually are far along or done with that process. Who knows? Certainly not an outsider like me.

 

[marble]

It would be nice to get a news videographer out there to walk that area and give us an indication of the location of body, where his car was parked, the tagged buildings and the condition of the land.

Just a local journalist could walk around the area and write up a description of the soil conditions , I'd settle for that if video is too much to ask. Or even a local on this thread (although I understand why they might not want to traipsing through there with everyone in LE still on high alert).

 

[vestigare]

http://www.illinoisfloodmaps.org/dfirm.aspx?county=lake

Enter Honing Road in the search and then make sure your basemap is Imagery.
Then zoom in and you will get a nice sat image of the swampy area where you can see the ponds and such and the trails.

 

[vestigare]

Given that if this was homicide the phrase "possible ambush" would have to be on the table, I'd hope they'd be looking into this. If it was a set-up as some posters have mentioned as being a possibility, they'd need to look very carefully at all of his known correspondence, search history, etc. leading up to his death. That said, I'm not sure (like, I doubt) that information will be released to the public, so maybe they actually are far along or done with that process. Who knows? Certainly not an outsider like me.

They said in the last presser they were still doing the victimology so who knows... if they think he was set up then they would need to be looking at quite a bit even more than just his stuff.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I agree with if someone is stupid enough to try to injure themselves and kills themselves instead Oh well. Darwin award winner.
I don't personally think he was trying to injure himself and accidentally killed himself but I do understand what Chuz Life means by an accidental suicide. It wasn't meant to be suicide but he did accidentally kill himself in a manner that would look just like he intentionally did it. Does that make better sense?

Thanks for trying. My comment was meant to point out
the concept of accidental suicide is wrong.
Suicide is suicide. An accident is an accident.
Accidental suicide is changing the meaning of word because the word suicide incorporates the idea of intention.
Accidental suicide is an oxymoron.
When someone commits suicide, there is no need to mention the act was intentional.

The one word, suicide, means someone died who intended to kill their own person.
If one dies as a result of an accident, it isn't suicide nor can it be because they didn't intend to die.
It would be correct to say he killed himself by accident or accidentally but suicide means a person intended to kill oneself.

lol - words matter!

 

[vestigare]

Thanks for trying. My comment was meant to point out
the concept of accidental suicide is wrong.
Suicide is suicide. An accident is an accident.
Accidental suicide is changing the meaning of word because the word suicide incorporates the idea of intention.
Oh, it is an oxymoron.
When someone commits suicide there is no need to point out he did so intentionally.

The one word, suicide, means someone died who intended to kill their own person.
If one dies because of an accident, it isn't suicide nor can it be because they didn't intend to die.
It would be correct to say he killed himself by accident or accidentally but suicide means someone intended to kill oneself.

lol - words matter!

I get what you are saying.

But the point I see in what Chuz was saying is that an investigator would not be able to tell if he committed suicide or if he mistakenly killed himself by doing something that looked like suicide.

Like if you hung yourself to scare your girlfriend on Halloween night. But oops the chair slipped or you got the knot wrong and you really did strangle yourself to death. The investigators may not be able to prove you were just doing it as a joke and stupidly screwed up and died. So it would listed as suicide rather than accident.

So unless you can prove intention or rather lack of intention it would be in a convoluted way an accidental suicide or a suicidal accident. LOL

ETA: and if you spend any time with Risk Mitigation Managers you will have heard "there is no such thing as an accident."

 

[Woe.be.gone]

http://education.nationalgeographic.com/encyclopedia/wetland/

Gotta love google!
Everything people might want to know about "wetlands", their types and names depending on where or why they exist and other stuff.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I agree with if someone is stupid enough to try to injure themselves and kills themselves instead Oh well. Darwin award winner.
I don't personally think he was trying to injure himself and accidentally killed himself but I do understand what Chuz Life means by an accidental suicide. It wasn't meant to be suicide but he did accidentally kill himself in a manner that would look just like he intentionally did it. Does that make better sense?

How about staged suicide gone wrong?
Does that sum the concept up?

 

[marble]

http://www.illinoisfloodmaps.org/dfirm.aspx?county=lake

Enter Honing Road in the search and then make sure your basemap is Imagery.
Then zoom in and you will get a nice sat image of the swampy area where you can see the ponds and such and the trails.

Thanks, VERY good find!
At least based on this elevation and swamp area map of the location we can at least make some guesses as to the drier and swampier areas that day given the weather conditions had been dry for a while.