Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

[O.Incandenza]

I'm a little confused. I was doing a bit of digging yesterday on the statutes and penalties in Indiana and "felony murder" isn't a statute in the state. They only have 1 murder charge, that either carries a lower or higher penalty depending on very specific aggravating or mitigating circumstances. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your thinking on this?

'Felony murder' is just the legal short-hand term for the type of crime described in IN Code § 35-42-1-1(2), which RA is charged under. Basically a homicide that occurs during the commission of a different felony. Most states, though not all, have some version of it. Wikipedia actually has a decent write-up of the general doctrine: Felony murder rule - Wikipedia

As you say, Indiana groups it under the general murder statute, but the term refers to the doctrine and the elements needed to prove the crime. Basically if you tell a lawyer from California that RA was charged under IN Code § 35-42-1-1(2) they won't know what that means without looking at the statute, but if you tell them he was charged with felony murder they will know exactly what it means.

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah I guess i should say … it’s not so much the voice itself, as far as pitch & other such qualities that can change with circumstance or presentation, as the manner of speaking, which involuntarily reveals things a speaker is unaware of

This will probably earn me laughs & ridicule here lol …. but the quality that jumps out at me is one that’s also present in a lot of Frank Sinatra’s singing (I admit I’m not a big fan lol but my father is) … we used to call this quality “deadvoice”

Curious if anyone else hears this too

IMO

I think you are speaking of prosody. It is intonation, but not only. Poor prosody is more noticeable in kids, but some adults might have it, too. I am not sure how much this quality might apply to the recording that has been cleared, though. I'd say, if a local could say that certain patterns of BG's intonation are wrong for the expected location, then, maybe, "a deadvoice". MOO.

Prosody and Articulation - Apraxia Kids

www.apraxia-kids.org

 

[Ontario Mom]

'Felony murder' is just the legal short-hand term for the type of crime described in IN Code § 35-42-1-1(2), which RA is charged under. Basically a homicide that occurs during the commission of a different felony. Most states, though not all, have some version of it. Wikipedia actually has a decent write-up of the general doctrine: Felony murder rule - Wikipedia

As you say, Indiana groups it under the general murder statute, but the term refers to the doctrine and the elements needed to prove the crime. Basically if you tell a lawyer from California that RA was charged under IN Code § 35-42-1-1(2) they won't know what that means without looking at the statute, but if you tell them he was charged with felony murder they will know exactly what it means.

I wondered if that's what was meant. Thanks for that.

 

[gizmobtj]

Many of us have followed this case for more than 5 years and I often thought that they would never catch the killer after it was not solved after the first 3 or 4 years.

I am very happy that they have now arrested the alleged perpetrator RA and I honestly don't think they would have taken this step without having solid evidence.

We really don't need to know every little detail of what happened to the girls or what type of creepy stuff they know about RA.

For me, I am just glad that this guy is off the streets as he may have done something similar again to other innocent young girls.

Yeah, but just a friendly reminder here - let's keep in mind that we have seen zero evidence of this man's guilt. We put a lot of weight in the words of police and prosecutors and we give them enormous power that has put more than one innocent person behind bars. I don't know whether RA is involved, but I am not going to take their word and I don't think anyone should feel safer simply because prosecutors and law enforcement say so. Soon we'll see, but so far we just have extrajudical words at a press conference and opinions from a prosecutor. I wouldn't hang your hat on that

 

[Argonaut]

OK, that's VERY interesting to me. And a bit odd that he doesn't drop it it. Was he saying "Down the hill" more like a question? Things that make you go hmmmm....

I think it is open to debate just what 'down the hill' means. The girls were going to the park to meet another person, we wonder how that person would have controlled both girls at once. Maybe the girls were accepting instruction of where to go instead of them being 'kidnapped' like has been often claimed. And then things went bad.

 

[Arkay]

Yeah, but just a friendly reminder here - let's keep in mind that we have seen zero evidence of this man's guilt. We put a lot of weight in the words of police and prosecutors and we give them enormous power that has put more than one innocent person behind bars. I don't know whether RA is involved, but I am not going to take their word and I don't think anyone should feel safer simply because prosecutors and law enforcement say so. Soon we'll see, but so far we just have extrajudical words at a press conference and opinions from a prosecutor. I wouldn't hang your hat on that

Guilt or innocence will be decided by a jury, not by police.

IMO, if RA is not the murderer, then he is involved in it somehow.

I cannot believe that the police just decided to randomly arrest some Joe Blow out of nowhere, in order to satisfy the public. They would know there's no chance to convict if there is zero evidence. They want the actual murderer put away and justice for the families. There must be something real behind this arrest.

IMO

 

[Charlot123]

I agree that the words are chosen carefully. I also don't think it's alarming.

But I do think it's revealing of the type of evidence they have. At this point I think it's very likely they have evidence that places RA at the scene, but they don't have strong evidence that he was the actual killer.

That's reflected in the DA's choice of language in this press release ("involved in the murders of Libby and Abby" instead of "murdered Libby and Abby") and it's reflected in the actual charges against Allen. Felony murder is exactly the charge you'd expect for someone involved in a murder kidnapping who didn't commit the actual murder, whereas intentional murder & an additional kidnapping charge is what you'd expect for the actual killer in that scenario. And no, felony murder is not a more serious charge than intentional murder. You get the aggravating factor either way as long as a kidnapping happened.

Now, I don't think that necessarily means that Allen wasn't the actual killer. It's all about what the DA can prove, and he may just not feel confident that they prove that Allen committed the murders himself, even though they believe he did. If that's the case, felony murder is 100% the safer charge.

I do think what we're seeing from the prosecution speaks to a certain lack of clarity of exactly how the crime happened though. But that may not end up being legally important. If they have rock solid evidence that RA was there when it happened, it will be hard for him to avoid a conviction IMO.

I am far away from our networks and can't check what DC said in 2019 when unveiling YBG portrait. But did he say, "directly responsible for murders" or "directly responsible for the deaths" of A@L before unveiling the portrait of YBG? I am afraid to rely on my memory, because so many things were said. But if it was "deaths" and not "murders" maybe it could hint at what might have happened.

 

[The Observer]

Yeah you are totally right on all these points & I’ll add …. if his attys are so sure he’s innocent & the evidence against him is so weak, why WOULDNT they demand a faster chance to bond him out? Would they really agree to leave their pure-as-snow client stuck unfairly in lockup through Thanksgiving, Christmas, the new year etc if they thought his chances of bonding out were so great? I’m not so sure
Moo

(Ps in case anyone notices, yes I realize I’m stating opposite positions from one post to the next …. I don’t have an opinion or belief one way or another & am just “thinking out loud”)

It's all a public show, it's just the legal dance defence and prosecuters do. Defence's job is to create doubt from the get go. They'd know his chances of bond are minuscule.

However, hypothetically IF in the unlikely chance RA is bonded (reasonably so) it'd be interesting to see who could and would post it. Indiana allows for use of property as surety, but I can't see RA's house being near twice the vaule of the bond amount. Even a 'reasonable' bond is going to be very high in a double murder case. If it was RA risks losing his public defenders. I understand given the fact he obviously isn't working and his wife states she can't for safety reasons they'd likely qualify for public defenders due to hardship, but interesting to see how that would play out.

 

[Trebor5591]

If someone took a souvenir and police didn’t locate it on the suspects property or during their investigation - they may believe the suspect gave it to someone else. Perhaps as a gift or perhaps as evidence of the crime. They may now be looking for the item to be in someone else’s possession.

That is quite a stretch, IMO!

 

[Trebor5591]

Yeah you are totally right on all these points & I’ll add …. if his attys are so sure he’s innocent & the evidence against him is so weak, why WOULDNT they demand a faster chance to bond him out? Would they really agree to leave their pure-as-snow client stuck unfairly in lockup through Thanksgiving, Christmas, the new year etc if they thought his chances of bonding out were so great? I’m not so sure
Moo

(Ps in case anyone notices, yes I realize I’m stating opposite positions from one post to the next …. I don’t have an opinion or belief one way or another & am just “thinking out loud"

IMO. Allen's defense should demand a speedy trial, and request a fast bail hearing--not one three months away!! Just my opinion...

 

[Trebor5591]

Yeah I guess i should say … it’s not so much the voice itself, as far as pitch & other such qualities that can change with circumstance or presentation, as the manner of speaking, which involuntarily reveals things a speaker is unaware of

This will probably earn me laughs & ridicule here lol …. but the quality that jumps out at me is one that’s also present in a lot of Frank Sinatra’s singing (I admit I’m not a big fan lol but my father is) … we used to call this quality “deadvoice”

Curious if anyone else hears this too

IMO

I listened to Gray Hughes youtube that had Richard Allen's voice and Bridge Guys voice played one after the other. Although I could not make out what Allen was saying, the timbre of the two voices seemed identical. IMO

 

[Charlot123]

I am far away from our networks and can't check what DC said in 2019 when unveiling YBG portrait. But did he say, "directly responsible for murders" or "directly responsible for the deaths" of A@L before unveiling the portrait of YBG? I am afraid to rely on my memory, because so many things were said. But if it was "deaths" and not "murders" maybe it could hint at what might have happened.

Addition. Stopped at a place with internet for a second. DC said, “directly responsible for the murders”. So these were not deaths but murders, still a strange formulation, especially given “felony murder” charge.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[photographer4]

I think it is open to debate just what 'down the hill' means. The girls were going to the park to meet another person, we wonder how that person would have controlled both girls at once. Maybe the girls were accepting instruction of where to go instead of them being 'kidnapped' like has been often claimed. And then things went bad.

I actually think after re-reading the RL search warrant info that it is possible that "guys" and or "down the hill" were *not* spoken (just) to the kids. I believe it is possible that those words were spoken to someone else or other people at the scene.

I think it is likely that RL discovered something or knew something that scared him enough to ask someone to alibi him. Perhaps he found the bodies before anyone else did and knew police were go to try to pin it on him based on his criminal history and past offenses? I can see no reason at all for him to seek to provide himself a false alibi unless he knew something, or saw something and it scared him (perhaps someone threatened him)? OR... perhaps he participated in the crimes. There just is no reason for him to do so. I'm going to alert on this post to ask a mod about yet another source I've come across for information in this matter. It would sure be an interesting conversation!

 

[photographer4]

Regarding the search of the Wabash River - we've all thought they were looking for any of the following: a murder weapon, a hard drive or a cell phone. Have we considered that perhaps they were looking for something missing from the crime scene itself? Perhaps from one or both of the kids (we know someone took something from the scene, but aren't told what). What if what they're looking for was found in that river? And...

Wouldn't it be amazing if perhaps something so simple as a traffic cam caught RA or someone disposing of it / them there?

 

[Le Singe]

-if they unseal it, the suspect can read it and destroy evidence, leave the state and disappear

Snipped for focus by me ... I see this point a lot and I don't get it. They already know RA is arrested and they are at least claiming to look at someone else if that isn't enough to get to to dip out of town I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Le Singe]

That is my understanding..
A judge signed the AA.
Must have had some strong evidence for that to have occurred.

I mean after seeing that judges subsequent behavior it's baffling to me JMo how people can have so much confidence in this.

 

[Le Singe]

I think it is open to debate just what 'down the hill' means. The girls were going to the park to meet another person, we wonder how that person would have controlled both girls at once. Maybe the girls were accepting instruction of where to go instead of them being 'kidnapped' like has been often claimed. And then things went bad.

I've often wondered if that was the case. Although I think that's still kidnapping when you use a ruse like that.

 

[Boxer]

IMO. Allen's defense should demand a speedy trial, and request a fast bail hearing--not one three months away!! Just my opinion...

How can a proper defense in a capital case be made in a month? The time is for him, the prosecution is pretty much ready to go.

 

[FromGermany1]

I actually think after re-reading the RL search warrant info that it is possible that "guys" and or "down the hill" were *not* spoken (just) to the kids. I believe it is possible that those words were spoken to someone else or other people at the scene.

I think it is likely that RL discovered something or knew something that scared him enough to ask someone to alibi him. Perhaps he found the bodies before anyone else did and knew police were go to try to pin it on him based on his criminal history and past offenses? I can see no reason at all for him to seek to provide himself a false alibi unless he knew something, or saw something and it scared him (perhaps someone threatened him)? OR... perhaps he participated in the crimes. There just is no reason for him to do so. I'm going to alert on this post to ask a mod about yet another source I've come across for information in this matter. It would sure be an interesting conversation!

bbm
Problem would be: The BG didn't shout "GDTH", but he spoke. Who should have heard him beneath the bridge/on the hill/down the hill? Only if BG had some "talking device" around his head, then maybe someone could have heard him except the girls.

 

[FromGermany1]

To be honest, LE probably knew who RL's evening call was to. If RL called RA that evening, RA would be in ISP's periscope much sooner.

I can imagine him calling his young friend GK, for example, or equally upstanding citizen of Delphi and asking, "was it your doing?" But given that RL's life, activities, calls, all was tracked afterwards, I am positive that any connection with RA would have led to RA much sooner.

bbm
Your wording! Top!!