IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #163

[sunshineray]

It's probably going to be kept secret.

04/14/2023	Petition Filed Verified Request to Prohibit Public Access to a Court Record filed by State of Indiana. Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 04/14/2023
04/14/2023	Response Filed State of Indiana files Response to Defense's Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping Order. Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 04/14/2023

Has he been moved? Aren't those records public, inmate rosters?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Has he been moved? Aren't those records public, inmate rosters?

I can't find him in the IN DOC and Vine shows him in Carroll Co. jail. I think Vine has always showed him in CACO.

 

[sunshineray]

Since I had absolutely no idea what a subpoena duces tecum is I had to Goog for it.

A subpoena duces tecum, or subpoena for production of evidence, is a court summons ordering the recipient to appear before the court and produce documents or other tangible evidence for use at a hearing or trial. In some jurisdictions, it can also be issued by legislative bodies such as county boards of supervisors. Wikipedia

and...

2018 Indiana Code​

TITLE 35. Criminal Law and Procedure​

ARTICLE 34. BRINGING CRIMINAL CHARGES​

CHAPTER 2. Grand Jury and Special Grand Jury​

35-34-2-5. Subpoenas; contents; failure to obey; contempt​

Sec. 5. (a) A subpoena duces tecum or subpoena ad testificandum summoning a witness to appear before the grand jury shall be issued by the clerk upon the request of the grand jury or prosecuting attorney. The subpoena must contain a statement of the general nature of the grand jury inquiry.

(b) If the subpoena is issued to a target, the subpoena shall also contain a statement informing the target that:

(1) he is a subject of the grand jury investigation;

(2) he has the right to consult with an attorney and to be assisted by an attorney under section 13 of this chapter; and

(3) if he cannot afford an attorney, the court inpaneling the grand jury will appoint one for him, upon request.

(c) If a witness fails to appear at the time and place stated in the subpoena, the court may hold him in contempt of court, unless he had filed a motion to quash the subpoena and the motion has been granted or was pending at the time he was to have appeared.

2018 Indiana Code :: TITLE 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: ARTICLE 34. BRINGING CRIMINAL CHARGES :: CHAPTER 2. Grand Jury and Special Grand Jury :: 35-34-2-5. Subpoenas; contents; failure to obey; contempt

Justia Free Databases of U.S. Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

I've got a question about Grand Jury subpoenas, if anyone can answer, TIA.

Is everyone asked before a Grand Jury, whether at the Grand Jury's request or the prosecutors, issued a subpoena? Or if you're asked and willingly agree to appear, a subpoena isn't necessary?

 

[FromGermany1]

It's probably going to be kept secret.

04/14/2023	Petition Filed Verified Request to Prohibit Public Access to a Court Record filed by State of Indiana. Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 04/14/2023
04/14/2023	Response Filed State of Indiana files Response to Defense's Emergency Motion to Modify Safekeeping Order. Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 04/14/2023

Makes sense, when we learn of a Request to Prohibit Public Access and then learn with the response, it was Defense's Emergency Motion for this and that.

 

[FromGermany1]

I've got a question about Grand Jury subpoenas, if anyone can answer, TIA.

Is everyone asked before a Grand Jury, whether at the Grand Jury's request or the prosecutors, issued a subpoena? Or if you're asked and willingly agree to appear, a subpoena isn't necessary?

Being a witness in court​

Citizens Information
https://www.citizensinformation.ie › ...

07.03.2022 — If someone in a court case wants to call you as a witness, you will get a witness summons or a subpoena. This is a simple court form that sets ...

 

[FrostedGlass]

I've got a question about Grand Jury subpoenas, if anyone can answer, TIA.

Is everyone asked before a Grand Jury, whether at the Grand Jury's request or the prosecutors, issued a subpoena? Or if you're asked and willingly agree to appear, a subpoena isn't necessary?

Didn't NMCL say there was no grand jury?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Everything in this case is secret, and to the detriment of the case.
Think how things might be different if LE had shared at the first press conference, not just BG’s image and audio, but about the car in the CPS parking lot, about the muddy and bloody man on County Road 300 N, that a witness had seen a man dressed like BG in the bridge just before they saw Libby and Abby heading toward the bridge. That a tight timeline they had constructed showed only one man had been seen on the trails at that time.
If LE had looked in the camera then instead of two years later and said “We know where you parked and will be identifying your car soon. We know how you walked out of there, and someone saw you. We know you were on the bridge and someone can identify you. Your car is on security cameras. We’ll be knocking on your door soon.” RA would have been on notice and probably shaking in his boots.
Instead of this, RA heard that billboards were going up across the country, LE was begging for tips. He felt pretty confident I’m sure.
Secrets continue now. Same reason given, that it might impede the now continuing investigation.
Gag order is in place simply so LE doesn’t have to answer questions about their pathetic investigation and accidental arrest.
I have no confidence in the prosecution team after these first few months. The judge seems competent but overworked and distracted. The defense seems detached, why watch your client decline for months before addressing it.
And all of it’s done in secret.

 

[Justice101]

Everything in this case is secret, and to the detriment of the case.
Think how things might be different if LE had shared at the first press conference, not just BG’s image and audio, but about the car in the CPS parking lot, about the muddy and bloody man on County Road 300 N, that a witness had seen a man dressed like BG in the bridge just before they saw Libby and Abby heading toward the bridge. That a tight timeline they had constructed showed only one man had been seen on the trails at that time.
If LE had looked in the camera then instead of two years later and said “We know where you parked and will be identifying your car soon. We know how you walked out of there, and someone saw you. We know you were on the bridge and someone can identify you. Your car is on security cameras. We’ll be knocking on your door soon.” RA would have been on notice and probably shaking in his boots.
Instead of this, RA heard that billboards were going up across the country, LE was begging for tips. He felt pretty confident I’m sure.
Secrets continue now. Same reason given, that it might impede the now continuing investigation.
Gag order is in place simply so LE doesn’t have to answer questions about their pathetic investigation and accidental arrest.
I have no confidence in the prosecution team after these first few months. The judge seems competent but overworked and distracted. The defense seems detached, why watch your client decline for months before addressing it.
And all of it’s done in secret.

RA was not going to turn himself in just because he thought they were closing in on him. No way.

LE did the right thing to keep evidence secret

 

[StarryStarryNight]

RA was not going to turn himself in just because he thought they were closing in on him. No way.

LE did the right thing to keep evidence secret

Sorry, I don’t think I expressed myself very well in my post.
I don’t think RA would have turned himself in. But if he had been aware of some of what LE had that early, he might have made a mistake that brought him to LE’s attention.
LE was absolutely correct to keep some evidence secret, especially evidence from the actual crime scene.
That being said, I do not see at all what was gained by waiting two years to mention the car at the CPS building or by not ever revealing to the public the killer had walked out through the cemetery. Somebody could have added to that information, but we’ll never know because it was secret.
Six years and an accidental arrest.

 

[sunshineray]

Being a witness in court​

View attachment 417044
Citizens Information
https://www.citizensinformation.ie › ...

07.03.2022 — If someone in a court case wants to call you as a witness, you will get a witness summons or a subpoena. This is a simple court form that sets ...

I was wondering specifically about Grand Jury, so before indictments/arrests.

 

[sunshineray]

Didn't NMCL say there was no grand jury?

I'm not getting who NMCL is? Sorry if I'm being dense. I'm wondering about the reason there's so much secrecy in the RA case possibly being the ongoing and maybe parallel investigation of the biggest Child Crime ring in Indiana history being involved. If there's a Grand Jury seated for that and it's crossing over to RA's case. LE/prosecutors have stated "others" may be involved in the Delphi murders, so that's a big something hanging over everything, IMO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm not getting who NMCL is? Sorry if I'm being dense. I'm wondering about the reason there's so much secrecy in the RA case possibly being the ongoing and maybe parallel investigation of the biggest Child Crime ring in Indiana history being involved. If there's a Grand Jury seated for that and it's crossing over to RA's case. LE/prosecutors have stated "others" may be involved in the Delphi murders, so that's a big something hanging over everything, IMO.

Nick McLeland, prosecutor.

 

[TL4S]

Sorry, I don’t think I expressed myself very well in my post.
I don’t think RA would have turned himself in. But if he had been aware of some of what LE had that early, he might have made a mistake that brought him to LE’s attention.
LE was absolutely correct to keep some evidence secret, especially evidence from the actual crime scene.
That being said, I do not see at all what was gained by waiting two years to mention the car at the CPS building or by not ever revealing to the public the killer had walked out through the cemetery. Somebody could have added to that information, but we’ll never know because it was secret.
Six years and an accidental arrest.

What if we consider, for a moment, that NMcL might have had a legitimate reason for wanting the PCA sealed? IMO, the car at the CPS lot has always (until RA's arrest) been sidelined on here as insignificant, because we never heard anything about it after the 2019 PC. I feel like even then LE was handling that information carefully, and it still makes me wonder if the vehicle information was part of NMcL's reasoning for wanting the PCA sealed to begin with. To us, on the outside, it seems like information that can be public without hurting the case, but we don't actually know that. Just like the vehicle at the CPS lot became insignificant because we didn't hear any more about it, so to has NMcL saying there might be others involved. But if there is another or more involved, on any level, perhaps them knowing about the vehicle being seen might let them know that those same witnesses might have seen other things not included in the PCA (like another car parked somewhere else). I mean, I'm just taking a random guess because I don't know enough to say, either way.

So while I'm also frustrated with the lack of information released, I do feel like somewhere in the depths of this "complex" investigation, there could be reasons for LE's actions, beyond simply covering for their ineptitude. Of course, mistakes were likely made by all parties, but everyone involved, from LE to the legal teams, are only involved now because some jerk decided to go out and end two innocent lives that day. I'm still suspecting there is a lot more to this story.

 

[MistyWaters]

Sorry, I don’t think I expressed myself very well in my post.
I don’t think RA would have turned himself in. But if he had been aware of some of what LE had that early, he might have made a mistake that brought him to LE’s attention.
LE was absolutely correct to keep some evidence secret, especially evidence from the actual crime scene.
That being said, I do not see at all what was gained by waiting two years to mention the car at the CPS building or by not ever revealing to the public the killer had walked out through the cemetery. Somebody could have added to that information, but we’ll never know because it was secret.
Six years and an accidental arrest.

Delphi is a small community so I’d be very surprised if anybody withheld anything they noticed in and around the trails that day that might’ve resulted in an earlier arrest, just because LE didn’t release enough evidence. Everyone knew how BG was dressed by the photo that was released. That someone was actually sighted dressed like that adds no further information.

The greater danger in releasing too much information is people can unintentionally become convinced that they must’ve saw the exact same thing even if they didn’t as it’s always easier to go wth the flow than to oppose it. Worse than that is somebody who just wants their 15 minutes of fame by creatively collaborating info that LE has already released. Then LE loses any and all means to differentiate those types from credible witnesses. They can only build their case by keeping known facts close to their chest and using that as a yardstick to gauge credibility of information that comes forth to them. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I appreciate everybody’s opinion.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not getting who NMCL is? Sorry if I'm being dense. I'm wondering about the reason there's so much secrecy in the RA case possibly being the ongoing and maybe parallel investigation of the biggest Child Crime ring in Indiana history being involved. If there's a Grand Jury seated for that and it's crossing over to RA's case. LE/prosecutors have stated "others" may be involved in the Delphi murders, so that's a big something hanging over everything, IMO.

Anything recorded by the clerk on RA’s file pertains only to the two murder charges that particular case file represents. A case file would not be opened for other charges going to a GJ until after an indictment occurred, charges laid and a different case files opened. If RA was charged with involvement in a Child Crime ring, those charges would still be separate/tried apart from two counts of murder as it does not directly interconnect with the other. JMO

 

[FrazzledNoodle]

I am sorry, as I am just now following along about this leading to trial. Are trial dates set for this case, and will it be live streamed anywhere?

 

[sunshineray]

Anything recorded by the clerk on RA’s file pertains only to the two murder charges that particular case file represents. A case file would not be opened for other charges going to a GJ until after an indictment occurred, charges laid and a different case files opened. If RA was charged with involvement in a Child Crime ring, those charges would still be separate/tried apart from two counts of murder as it does not directly interconnect with the other. JMO

So no "duplicate" subpoenas issued at the same time for the same records can occur once someone is specifically charged...issued by either the prosecutor or the defense? That would be a no-no? So if they (prosecution or defense) were to go after "others", in front of the Grand Jury, RA's case would always still stand alone?

 

[MistyWaters]

So no "duplicate" subpoenas issued at the same time for the same records can occur once someone is specifically charged...issued by either the prosecutor or the defense? That would be a no-no? So if they (prosecution or defense) were to go after "others", in front of the Grand Jury, RA's case would always still stand alone?

Firstly the Subpoena Duces Tecums are for a person to provide certain records or documents, not witness testimony.

IF -Big IF - RA and others were collectively involved in a Child Crime Ring, participating in CSAM is a separate crime apart from murder. For RA to be convicted of murder, only that he committed the act of murder must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, how he came to select his victims (ie potentially belonging to a ring?) may form a prosecutions theory but it does not need to be proven for a successful murder conviction. Therefore I can’t see any reason the Subpoena Duces Tecums recorded on RA’s double murder case file relates to a Child Crime ring.

The comment during KAK’s interview about the “largest” was almost two years ago I think? How could LE possibly know that if they were only now beginning to subpoena documents??? JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I am sorry, as I am just now following along about this leading to trial. Are trial dates set for this case, and will it be live streamed anywhere?

No trial dates set but a bail hearing is scheduled for June 15th. That may serve as a quasi preliminary hearing as no separate date has been mentioned for that to take place. Any live streaming in entirely unknown at this time.