IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[MistyWaters]

(ssnipped by me>
IMO podcasters going to the media is really detrimental to the clarity of information re: the case. I would prefer to hear straight from LE, D, or P.

I don’t think that’ll be happening while the gag order is in place.

“…..Judge Frances Gull issued a gag order on Dec. 2, 2022, barring prosecutors, defense, police, and family members from talking publicly about the case.”

From the Bench: Why a gag order in Delphi Murders case? - OPINION

Judge Ashley Willcott gives her take on gag orders and how it could impact those involved in the Delphi Murders case.

www.courttv.com

 

[zh0r4]

Cain says she has seen no evidence that either of Allen’s court-appointed lawyers had any hand in leaking these documents.

The defense attorneys previously had caught the attention of the court for leaked documents. In the spring, discovery documents were leaked, and Baldwin accepted responsibility.
Leaked documents could put Delphi murders case in jeopardy

Does anyone really believe that the defense, who admitted having leaked previous discovery IN THIS CASE, had nothing to do with the leak of the highly incendiary crime scene photos just as the dust is settling on their Motion for the Public, er Press, er Court to consider the Odinism flight of fancy?

I think not. I am not nearly so gullible as that. And conveniently the former employee wasn't even on the RA case just worked at the firm? Somebody set the employee up to it. Nobody will convince me otherwise.

The defense is playing a dangerous game MOO

I have no idea either way at this point about the leak. But I would consider the Purdue Professor Turco’s taped interview and the opinion of his Harvard colleague to be enough to consider the D’s Odinism flight of fancy. They wouldn’t need to leak anything re: CS photos because the Professor who Liggett swore under oath didn’t think there was a ritualistic element to the homicides has been found and said the opposite. JMO. I never thought the professor would be found.

“DELPHI, Ind. (WNDU/WTHR) - New details are emerging in the Delphi murders case as court documents filed by Richard Allen’s attorney accuse the police of withholding evidence involving a professor at Purdue University.

<modsnip for 10% copyright rule>

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect identify Purdue professor, say police withheld info

The defense team says the newly filed information supports its claim that Odinists were responsible for the murders of Libby German and Abigail Williams.

www.wndu.com

 

[zh0r4]

You're right and not being knit-picky. I should have put "if it's true."
No, we don't have an official statement that I know of. I was basing my statements on what MS said.

To clarify, I was trying to not be knit-picky of MS. Lol

 

[MistyWaters]

I have no idea either way at this point about the leak. But I would consider the Purdue Professor Turco’s taped interview and the opinion of his Harvard colleague to be enough to consider the D’s Odinism flight of fancy. They wouldn’t need to leak anything re: CS photos because the Professor who Liggett swore under oath didn’t think there was a ritualistic element to the homicides has been found and said the opposite. JMO. I never thought the professor would be found.

“DELPHI, Ind. (WNDU/WTHR) - New details are emerging in the Delphi murders case as court documents filed by Richard Allen’s attorney accuse the police of withholding evidence involving a professor at Purdue University.

<modsnip for copyright>

Attorneys for Delphi murders suspect identify Purdue professor, say police withheld info

The defense team says the newly filed information supports its claim that Odinists were responsible for the murders of Libby German and Abigail Williams.

www.wndu.com

The role of Richard Allen’s defence team is to defend his innocence before a panel of impartial jurors. That jury is not going to find Odinists guilty, only RA will be on trial. It’s not a case of ‘this or that’. The prosecution will have the opportunity to prove their case again RA but the defence doesn’t have authority to use RA’s trial to prosecute the Odinists.

One benefit to the defence for the leaked crime scene photos is the jury pool can become contaminated, no longer can be deemed impartial so if he’s found guilty, the conviction can be appealed. Not so for the State if RA is found not guilty. JMO

 

[twall]

Judge issues order to allow cameras in Allen County courtroom for Delphi murders hearing

For the first time in the case, cameras will be allowed in the courtroom for a Thursday hearing in the Delphi double murder case.

www.21alivenews.com

 

[MistyWaters]

To clarify, I was trying to not be knit-picky of MS. Lol

Considering everyone else involved in this case is under a gag order and MS was already somewhat on the inside by reporting the leaked photos and messages they received to ISP, I think they’re the next best entity to try set the story straight and help quell rampant and hurtful rumours.

That Baldwin hasn’t defended himself or threatened legal action against MS speaks volumes IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Judge issues order to allow cameras in Allen County courtroom for Delphi murders hearing

For the first time in the case, cameras will be allowed in the courtroom for a Thursday hearing in the Delphi double murder case.

www.21alivenews.com

Is digital steaming something different than live streaming?

From your link -
“The order also notes that the court will not permit photographing or digital streaming of the proceedings.”

 

[steeltowngirl]

Anybody know why this order talks about a 10/31 hearing, but no hearing is shown to be scheduled for 10/31?

10/12/2023

Order Issued On the Courts motion, this cause is ordered set for status hearing on October 19, 2023 at 2:00 p.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Counsel ordered to arrange their schedules to appear. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the up coming hearing on October 31, 2023 and other matters which have recently arisen. Court will prepare a transport order to have Defendant appear. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/12/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[legalmomma]

The Thursday hearing will probably be streamed live only via the link here. And hopefully it won’t crash.

IN Court Streams - IN Court Streams

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[twall]

Is digital steaming something different than live streaming?

From your link -
“The order also notes that the court will not permit photographing or digital streaming of the proceedings.”

I'm not sure. It may be like the Bryan Kohberger hearings have been in Idaho, they are not streamed live but recorded and played after the hearing concludes.

 

[twall]

Anybody know why this order talks about a 10/31 hearing, but no hearing is shown to be scheduled for 10/31?

10/12/2023

Order Issued On the Courts motion, this cause is ordered set for status hearing on October 19, 2023 at 2:00 p.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Counsel ordered to arrange their schedules to appear. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the up coming hearing on October 31, 2023 and other matters which have recently arisen. Court will prepare a transport order to have Defendant appear. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/12/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

See this post as to what Barbara MacDonald stated the Allen county court executive said.

IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

#Delphi hearing on 10/19/23 in Allen County "likely" to be televised. Multiple requests already received. Allen is one of the Indiana counties that routinely allows cameras. #Delphi: According to Allen Superior Court Executive John McGauley, 10/31 hearing not "officially" set yet, he expects...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Betty P]

I think because we all come from different backgrounds and draw from different experiences, our understanding is not always the same.

What I get from what MS wrote below is the defence was required to list with the court who discovery was planned to be shared with by specifying the capacity of all those who would be supporting them (also could include an array of legal consultants) so the judge has a means of knowing how many tentacles discovery material is extending out to. It’s not the judge being charged with approving each individual person, it’s that the attorneys are pledging to ensure that each of those persons are trustworthy and sign confidentiality agreements.

By agreeing to this the defence is taking full responsibility for any future leaks, why the leaks are described as “catastrophic”. It’s impossible for the Judge to ensure everyone who’s associated with the defence is trustworthy.

JMO

“The defense agreed to insure that they only shared discovery with trustworthy associates, either expert witnesses or support staff who signed paperwork affirming they wouldn't leak anything on the penalty of contempt of court charges. And those were supposed also to be approved with the court. There was supposed to be a process for this.”

Pardon me if I don't believe the promises made by the defense, based on their past behavior and that of other, similar defense teams in similar murder trials. They'll keep pushing the envelope until the judge calls them out in court and verbally orders them to stop messing around or face sanctions.

I listened to the MS podcast while out walking today and remain shocked at how loosely this process is going. The judge should crack down on what's going out to the public, including MS. Everyone will get a chance to see the evidence at trial.

How the heck did a guy who was former LE get access to crime scene photos, let alone emailing them around. What the heck.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Anybody know why this order talks about a 10/31 hearing, but no hearing is shown to be scheduled for 10/31?

10/12/2023

Order Issued On the Courts motion, this cause is ordered set for status hearing on October 19, 2023 at 2:00 p.m. in the Allen Superior Court. Counsel ordered to arrange their schedules to appear. The purpose of the hearing is to discuss the up coming hearing on October 31, 2023 and other matters which have recently arisen. Court will prepare a transport order to have Defendant appear. Judicial Officer: Gull, Frances -SJ Order Signed: 10/12/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

My best guess is the Judge just doesn’t what to give away what type of hearing will be planned for the 31st, in advance of this week’s discussion. For example if on Thursday she approves the motion for a Franks Hearing to be held, by scheduling it her decision would essentially be announcing her decision in advance.

Beyond that I have no idea unless she’s giving herself additional time to decide the fate of RA’s attorney/s, if Baldwin hasn’t stepped down already. But then she’d have to appoint another co-counsel. Or it would also be good if the 31st date is giving time for RA to decide to change his plea but that’s probably overly optimistic.

I’m yearning the ‘boring’ days following RA’s arrest when nothing much was newsworthy for several weeks.

 

[Betty P]

Also, I’m not trying to be knit-picky, but until LE does an investigation and publicizes their findings re: digital forensics, timeline of distribution of photos, etc, we don’t know who leaked the alleged CS photos. Or if the alleged CS photos are real. Anyone can say anything on the internet, data can be breached by a third party via hacking. Fake social media accounts are made all of the time, so the account itself would need to be investigated. The weirdest thing to me is how quickly it was publicly announced as fact where the alleged photos came from. JMO.

Did LE make an official statement the photos were legitimate and came from the D?

IMO podcasters going to the media is really detrimental to the clarity of information re: the case. I would prefer to hear straight from LE, D, or P.

Agree. They're spokespersons for their own podcast, but shouldn't be considered any more of an authority than your average citizen. Hopefully they're not acquiring anything that's covered by the gag order. Everyone needs to go silent until the trial, JMO.

With the George Wagner4 trial for the Rhoden Family Massacre, we had almost no knowledge about the crimes, the victims, the crime scenes, the timeline of the murders, etc. until the trial began. There were zero photos, zero descriptions of crime scenes or victims until the trial.

 

[Betty P]

The role of Richard Allen’s defence team is to defend his innocence before a panel of impartial jurors. That jury is not going to find Odinists guilty, only RA will be on trial. It’s not a case of ‘this or that’. The prosecution will have the opportunity to prove their case again RA but the defence doesn’t have authority to use RA’s trial to prosecute the Odinists.

One benefit to the defence for the leaked crime scene photos is the jury pool can become contaminated, no longer can be deemed impartial so if he’s found guilty, the conviction can be appealed. Not so for the State if RA is found not guilty. JMO

It can also result in a mistrial, something most defense teams work towards.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/mistrials/

Mistrials can occur for many reasons:

• death of a juror or attorney
• an impropriety in the drawing of the jury discovered during the trial
• a fundamental error prejudicial (unfair) to the defendant that cannot be cured by appropriate instructions to the jury (such as the inclusion of highly improper remarks in the prosecutor's summation)
• juror misconduct (e.g., having contacts with one of the parties, considering evidence not presented in the trial, conducting an independent investigation of the matter)
• the jury's inability to reach a verdict because it is hopelessly deadlocked.

 

[MistyWaters]

Pardon me if I don't believe the promises made by the defense, based on their past behavior and that of other, similar defense teams in similar murder trials. They'll keep pushing the envelope until the judge calls them out in court and verbally orders them to stop messing around or face sanctions.

I listened to the MS podcast while out walking today and remain shocked at how loosely this process is going. The judge should crack down on what's going out to the public, including MS. Everyone will get a chance to see the evidence at trial.

How the heck did a guy who was former LE get access to crime scene photos, let alone emailing them around. What the heck.

JMO

Just to clarify a couple points, my understanding is the guy who got access to the crime scene photos was a prior associate of co-counsel A. Baldwin, apparently the man had worked for him in years prior and the leak innocently happened during a get-together when Baldwin was just seeking his opinion. Not sure I believe that either. I didn’t notice anywhere the leaker was former LE. MS did make the point of stating LE was initially deeply concerned the leak might’ve involved a rogue cop and they also investigated that possibility very thoroughly.

ISP is now tasked with investigating the leak and subpoenas including Facebook take time so if proof is required that could be awhile. One thing I do agree with Greenlee is that sometimes people get caught up in the moment and make bad decisions. That’s the only explanation I can think of for people to be sharing amongst themselves crime scene photos of murdered children. But bad decisions still warrant consequences.

I know I don’t expect to see crime scene photos of Abby’s and Libby’s dead bodies even during the trial. I’d hope they and their families will be given high regard of respect.

 

[MistyWaters]

It can also result in a mistrial, something most defense teams work towards.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/mistrials/

Mistrials can occur for many reasons:

• death of a juror or attorney
• an impropriety in the drawing of the jury discovered during the trial
• a fundamental error prejudicial (unfair) to the defendant that cannot be cured by appropriate instructions to the jury (such as the inclusion of highly improper remarks in the prosecutor's summation)
• juror misconduct (e.g., having contacts with one of the parties, considering evidence not presented in the trial, conducting an independent investigation of the matter)
• the jury's inability to reach a verdict because it is hopelessly deadlocked.

Yes it sure can, a mistrial can result if a leak occurs while a trial is taking place.

 

[Betty P]

Yes it sure can, a mistrial can result if a leak occurs while a trial is taking place.

It can also result when the prosecution tries to use evidence in the trial that was leaked beforehand to the general public, including the potential jury pool. It becomes prejudicial information and can cause a mistrial if it can't be "cured" by appropriate jury instructions.

The defense should not be allowed to share publicly evidence and arguments they're filing in the pre-trial phase. The public can hear all of their crazy theories and see evidence once the trial begins, not before. Judges don't usually allow defense teams to argue their case in the news media before the trial begins.

 

[Betty P]

Just to clarify a couple points, my understanding is the guy who got access to the crime scene photos was a prior associate of co-counsel A. Baldwin, apparently the man had worked for him in years prior and the leak innocently happened during a get-together when Baldwin was just seeking his opinion. Not sure I believe that either. I didn’t notice anywhere the leaker was former LE. MS did make the point of stating LE was initially deeply concerned the leak might’ve involved a rogue cop and they also investigated that possibility very thoroughly.

When listening to the MS podcast, no they described the guy <modsnip>

The MS folks were kind of apologizing for him, saying he didn't mean it, he accidentally copied someone he shouldn't have, but I disagree. That kind evidence should NEVER be shared with anyone outside the LE investigative team, prosecutors, defense and judge before its presented at trial. Especially a murder trial. <modsnip>

JMO, that's irresponsible. This is a horrific murder trial.

IANAL, I suppose that the judge will have to toss that evidence or give special instructions to the jury, but the defense has done their job in rendering it useless. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

When listening to the MS podcast, they described the guy <modsnip>

The MS folks were kind of apologizing for him, saying he didn't mean it, he accidentally copied someone he shouldn't have, but I disagree. That kind evidence should NEVER be shared with anyone outside the LE investigative team, prosecutors, defense and judge before its presented at trial. Especially a murder trial. <modsnip>

JMO, that's irresponsible. This is a horrific murder trial.

IANAL, I suppose that the judge will have to toss that evidence or give special instructions to the jury, but the defense has done their job in rendering it useless. JMO

Okay I listened again. <modsnip: quoted post was snipped of misinformation>

At about 8:35 Greenlee begins explaining that “M” (the leaker) “is someone who used to work for Andrew Baldwin’s criminal defence team and I want to stress that that professional relationship ended between them amicably. I believe “M” wanted to pursue other opportunities. That’s my understanding and this happened years ago. (Cain) It’s not a disgruntled former employee. It’s not someone who was fired in the midst of the Delphi case and wanted revenge. This was a close personal friendship as well as a business relationship.…. goes on to explain the highly collaborative nature of Baldwin’s law office, generally a strength. Issues can arise out of that, to be blunt…..“