IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #171

[girlhasnoname]

That wasn't my question.

Also, somewhere in that memo that you quoted from, one of the LE they questioned said he had not seen any pictures of the bullet other than those three.

You were speaking about what we knew about the magic bullet. I'm saying that we don't know the exact amount of pictures or what they show or not.

During those Depositions the D likes to reference, many times the officers could not recall certain specifics (understandable after all this time). That's not the same as something being absolutely true or absolutely false.

IMO

ETA: Added word for clarity

 

[MistyWaters]

According to the Defense Memorandum directly they offered up 3 explanations for not having photos of the bullet after it was found at the scene, including that they themselves might have missed it, this is what I am talking about when I say the D really took liberties with their accusations and interpretations, and there are many more half truths like this within that document IMO:

<snipped>
In other words, the only photos that the Defense has found in the discovery it has received are of the bullet still buried in the ground. At this time, the Defense has no idea if (a) photos of the bullet after it was removed from the ground even exist; or (2) the photos exist but the state has not yet turned those important photographs over to the Defense, or (3) the Defense has missed these photos in the voluminous discovery. Either way, the Defense has asked the prosecutor to please locate these.

DELPHI: Memorandum in Support of Motion PDF | PDF | Prosecutor | Police

So the D might have missed the photo or it might’ve been contained in the discovery files they hadn’t yet reviewed or received. And why didn’t they ask LE during the depositions if photos were taken, similar to questions about RA and DNA? Oh maybe they did but the response wasn’t what they wanted to share.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Ah ok.

But then how does the fitting up work?

Obviously RA would realise if it wasn't his own gun and would challenge that evidence. I don't see how that would be a starter. He hasn't ever denied it is his gun

So that would mean the analysis lab would have to have cooked up a report to fit him up? Why? To what end?

Seems unlikely

Let's imagine they have that bullet, they sure remember it... but it went into the mysterious file that the DD narrative disappeared into. They found RA and OMG he has a gun that takes a 40 calibre cartridge and luckily, he has a bunch of bullets to.

I have seen no proof in what's been presented that the bullet found at the scene is the one that ended up at the lab. No chain of custody and no witness to the confiscation of RA's gun and bullets. I'm not quite done but real life calls.

 

[Betty P]

Let's imagine some things about the magic bullet, based on what "we" know.
There are only 3 pictures of the cartridge still in the ground.
There is no chain of custody for that cartridge.
There is no witness signature on the search warrant return for the gun, ammo.

Is there any way RA could have been set up?

Do you have a link for the "no chain of custody" info? I hadn't heard that was the case. TIA

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes it was under oath. They obtained that information from LE in sworn, recorded depositions which were attached to the FM as evidence and will likely be shown in court. We haven't yet been able to obtain the depositions since JG has sealed the FM and its exhibits.

I'm looking forward to seeing the ex Defense Team's depos. Do you think the new D Team can/will use those or take new depositions of their own?

 

[MistyWaters]

Apparently, the person who wrote this memo can read people's minds. Liggett "knew" this and that, he "concealed" this or that, etc. For someone so concerned about evidence, their own standards are pretty low when making accusations against witnesses.

So this defense attorney is afraid that, when he questions Liggett on the witness stand, in court, under oath, that Liggett's testimony won't fit the preconceived "facts" the defense has developed on their own.

Then there’s the P’s remarks about the contents of the memo to consider - somewhere between “not entirely truthful”, more recently “blatant lies”.

ETA This is what I don’t understand if the ex-D was really sincere in ‘fighting tooth and nail’ to defend RA’s innocence — what’s the point in filing a Frank’s motion to attempt to invalid the SW and not bothering to ensure the integrity of factual information being presented? IMO that’s an example of grossly negligent by not representing RA‘s best interests.

 

[EllaMinnowP]

This is a very big deal and I'm wondering if the only reason we haven't heard about it from defense yet is because of the slow-walk on discovery production from the state to the D.

Feb 23, 2017
"On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered...It is now the third piece of evidence investigators have said publicly they have: the grainy suspect photo, that chilling audio of a man's voice saying “down the hill,” and now some kind of DNA sample...We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. “So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation]...It’s good,” said Bush, “the science is excellent, it’s very trustworthy, and there are very strong standards in DNA processing, but…when all is said and done, [it’s] just one piece of evidence for the process.”

Well, we know whose DNA it isn't or it would have been shouted from the rooftops imo.

This was some time ago now so was there a publicized match found, or has this just been sitting out there buried (and ignored)?

DNA evidence is top priority in Delphi murder investigation

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found mu…

fox59.com

ETA: They need to turn this over. If they hadn't yet prior to the non-withdrawal withdrawal, why not?

I guess it could have technically been Libby’s DNA found on the tree to write the F? Does anyone remember DNA that was too degraded to test being mentioned? It seems I read somewhere there was a DNA sample but it was untestable?

Either way, RA’s DNA wasn’t on the bodies/at the CS according to LE.

I’m still catching up, so someone may have mentioned it already, but I do recall I believe it was Doug Carter (but could have been someone else) was asked by the media if LE have DNA, and the official responded yes - but not the usual kind. Or something to that effect.

Does anybody recall what I’m referring to?? Much conversation was had here about what that could mean… pet hair was a big topic of speculation at that time.

MOO

 

[Betty P]

Yes it was under oath. They obtained that information from LE in sworn, recorded depositions which were attached to the FM as evidence and will likely be shown in court. We haven't yet been able to obtain the depositions since JG has sealed the FM and its exhibits.

Under oath in a deposition taken by the defense attorneys with no prosecution attorneys present and no judge. Full transcript of the deposition included in the FM? Thanks, but no thanks. I'll wait until its in court.

I don't trust defense attorneys who allow their friends to make copies of crime scene evidence photos of murdered children for distribution on the internet.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I’m still catching up, so someone may have mentioned it already, but I do recall I believe it was Doug Carter (but could have been someone else) was asked by the media if LE have DNA, and the official responded yes - but not the usual kind. Or something to that effect.

Does anybody recall what I’m referring to?? Much conversation was had here about what that could mean… pet hair was a big topic of speculation at that time.

MOO

Yes. There was an interview where DC stated
something to the affect " there is DNA, but might not be what you would expect

EBM!

I just found this:

Indiana State Police superintendent Doug Carter says they have several pieces and parts but they are looking for the one piece of evidence that will crack the case.

“I know that we have the human element – we have a very solid science element,” he said. “We are using every capable process that we have from a scientific perspective as everyone would expect us to, and we will continue to do that until there is nothing left to do. does that include DNA? It does. We have not ruled out the possibility that it is a local person. Every time we clear somebody it gets us closer. We are confident that somewhere in the tips we have valuable information and every time we can eliminate one we can move on to the next.”

FBI investigators working to put together profile of suspect in Delphi murders

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Let's imagine they have that bullet, they sure remember it... but it went into the mysterious file that the DD narrative disappeared into. They found RA and OMG he has a gun that takes a 40 calibre cartridge and luckily, he has a bunch of bullets to.

I have seen no proof in what's been presented that the bullet found at the scene is the one that ended up at the lab. No chain of custody and no witness to the confiscation of RA's gun and bullets. I'm not quite done but real life calls.

There has been no ballistics hearing and a gag order is in place at this time. So just because you haven’t seen proof doesn’t mean there’s no proof.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m still catching up, so someone may have mentioned it already, but I do recall I believe it was Doug Carter (but could have been someone else) was asked by the media if LE have DNA, and the official responded yes - but not the usual kind. Or something to that effect.

Does anybody recall what I’m referring to?? Much conversation was had here about what that could mean… pet hair was a big topic of speculation at that time.

MOO

Yes I recall something like that but if it was a remark by DC, there’s more than enough examples of misinterpretations in trying to guess the meaning of his comments.

Indeed, he might’ve been referring to other types of DNA aside from the ‘usual kind’ as there’s more than just one type. JMO

Principles of Forensic DNA for Officers of the Court | The Two Types of DNA: Nuclear and Mitochondrial

Learn more about the biology of DNA, with an emphasis on the two types of DNA: Nuclear and Mitochondrial, and where they are found.

nij.ojp.gov

 

[Betty P]

Then there’s the P’s remarks about the contents of the memo to consider - somewhere between “not entirely truthful”, more recently “blatant lies”.

ETA This is what I don’t understand if the ex-D was really sincere in ‘fighting tooth and nail’ to defend RA’s innocence — what’s the point in filing a Frank’s motion to attempt to invalid the SW and not bothering to ensure the integrity of factual information being presented? IMO that’s an example of grossly negligent by not representing RA‘s best interests.

I remember the D doing similar things in the last trial I followed. Annoying stuff like saying they hadn't received any discovery, with prosecution then submitting evidence of a zillion terabytes that they'd been given the week before. Just saying false bs in pre-trial hearings. The judge clarifies the facts, then they turn around and do it again in the next hearing. Just petty lies to make the prosecution look bad.

But those shyster defense attorneys in that trial NEVER attacked the judge or said anything to make him look bad. It's as if there's a line that smart defense attorneys don't cross. When the D attorneys for the Delphi Murders trial lied, publicly released photos of the poor dead girls and made false allegations against the judge, it was a whole new level of desperation and self-sabotage. JMO

Defense attorneys in Delphi murder case ask Indiana’s Supreme Court to vacate special judge

INDIANAPOLIS — Attorneys for Richard Allen have filed another brief with the Indiana Supreme Court asking them to throw Special Judge Fran Gull off the case. This Writ of Mandamus was filed b…

fox59.com

Attorneys Quit Delphi Murders Case After Shocking Leak Of Crime Scene Photos

The exit of Richard Allen's lawyers is likely to delay the high-profile trial over the deaths of Indiana girls Abby Williams and Libby German.

www.huffpost.com

 

[EllaMinnowP]

Yes. There was an interview where DC stated
something to the affect " there is DNA, but might not be what you would expect

EBM!

I just found this:

Indiana State Police superintendent Doug Carter says they have several pieces and parts but they are looking for the one piece of evidence that will crack the case.

“I know that we have the human element – we have a very solid science element,” he said. “We are using every capable process that we have from a scientific perspective as everyone would expect us to, and we will continue to do that until there is nothing left to do. does that include DNA? It does. We have not ruled out the possibility that it is a local person. Every time we clear somebody it gets us closer. We are confident that somewhere in the tips we have valuable information and every time we can eliminate one we can move on to the next.”

FBI investigators working to put together profile of suspect in Delphi murders

JMO

Thanks for finding that!
It is ambiguous wording by DC (as usual, imo), but it’s not the exact same Q&A that I’m remembering. In the link you’ve provided, DC is more strongly’suggesting’ that they have human DNA than in the conversation that I’m thinking about.

MOO
& thx again for trying to help jog my memory. Now that I’m caught up, I see that several sleuths have already brought up the pet hair possibility.

 

[sunshineray]

Agree; the P could be referring to anyone ...

IMO, the critical thing (to my thinking) is that the P has publicly left this possibility open.
I think folks tend to overlook this.

Why would P keep the "RA/BG didn't act alone" door open if they're certain they have their man?

It's necessary (if not strategic) on the P's part, to keep that door open for another participant in this complex double murder. Why is it necessary? Let's work through that for a minute.

Fact: the P is keeping the door open for another participant.

Potential reasons:

1) Timeline. Because the P is well aware that the P's proposed timeline for these murders vs their evidence-linked timeline for RA ... leaves reasonable doubt ... that would be mitigated if the P's theory is that there is another participant (and RA won't rat on them).
(The RA timeline is too tight given the geography traveled, two victims, more than one crime scene(s) and the elaborate staging.)

2) Evidence (yet undisclosed). Does evidence suggest another (unknown) male at the scene?

3. Both 1 and 2 above.

The P theory of the case is one worthy of closer examination.
How does this potential other suspect a party to the crime; what's P's theory on this?
Apparently, it's not one that considers an Odin-mimicking staging theory.

Any guesses?

JHMO

Well I for one think BG video/still photos greatly resembles RA. I also think it's possible someone else was down the hill. I remember former FBI agents commenting in the past that the Delphi killer may have had a particular spot set up to bring his victims, that the crime scene was chosen ahead of time. That in itself could possibly hint at another involved. It's still an open question in my mind but mostly because of KAK as I've mentioned. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

I don't think saying her theory is a conspiracy theory is a fair or right thing to say. I saw the point she was making and agreed with it and I don't think my agreement amounts to conspiracy. That would mean that anyone who disagrees with the other side is a conspiracy theorist and that's simply not true. She qualified the statement as her opinion but she linked to the timeline (because you asked) which was developed by other members from the court documents. I think there are additional questions in this case that need to be asked, but that does not mean asking them is conspiratorial.

jmo

I do and beg to differ, respectfully. Saying the prosecution leaked the crime scene photos, when it's been admitted to by a good friend and strategist of AB, can only be labeled as a theory disregarding the facts present...a conspiracy theory. Again AJMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

And so I notice amidst the ex-D‘s strategy of pointing fingers of guilt in various directions away from their client, they’ve never accounted why RA could not have committed the murders, other than state the time he claimed he was at the trail was due to mistakes or misunderstandings. Interesting that he has no alibi, yet others who they blame do.

JMO

Very good point.
———————————————

What the ex-defense doesn’t want to talk about

—Libby and Abby
—that RA admitted in 2017 to being at the trails on Feb 13th 2017
—that RA admitted in 2022 to being on the bridge at roughly the same time the girls were dropped off.
—that RA admitted to being dressed like BG
—that RA and his wife admitted he owned a blue jacket similar to the one worn by BG and still had it
—that no witnesses have come forward claiming to have seen a group of men(Odinists or others) around the trails that day.
—that RA admitted to owning a gun, and that gun has been matched to an unspent bullet found at the crime scene
—that ejector mark ballistic analysis is used routinely in other states to match unspent bullets to particular guns. It is only considered “junk science” by defense attorneys.
—that RA confessed multiple times on the phone to his wife. That these confessions were recorded and transcribed.

 

[sunshineray]

Remember Baldwin said at the courthouse that journalists "need to do their job". So, I don't expect a lot of investigation into matters since the Leak Investigators will be investigating themselves.

I am not the only one who sees truth in what has been included in the D Memo. But, it wouldn't matter if I were for I use my own good common sense to form my opinions. IE., I don't think the Crime Flow by GrayHughes is accurate. I don't believe the children crossed the cold creek that day. No way LG shimmied up that steep embankment to get to RLs property.

No need to be sorry where the truth is concerned. Baldwin was betrayed by the friendship with a dirty player, MW. The release of the photos was timed according to strategy of the P, moo, and not the D. The purpose was to get the D attorney's to stop and withdraw representation. With the help of the Judge, their mission was accomplished. I hope the City of Delphi, Carroll County and the state will address their issues with CP and whatever else has them burdened.

In order to honor Abby and Libby, the truth of what they endured should be made known. If the D has the truth, then the those responsible for placing Runes at the CS should face the music of their criminal actions.

Thank you for allowing me to have an opinion.

RA was certainly spiraling into an abyss at Westville while being tormented by his Odin guards who tased him on May 9 and May 25. The phone confessions were made in June when the Odin guards were treating RA unjustly. Maybe the truth is that he was coerced into confessing due to fear over the lives of his family were in danger if he didn't.

Oct 10 2023

The correctional officers said they stopped wearing the patches on their uniforms in September 2023 when they were asked to remove them.

Court docs: Correctional officers overseeing Richard Allen deny practicing Odinism despite wearing religious patches on uniforms

Oct 16 2023

Prison Guards’ Pagan Pride – Admissions of Flaunting Norse Symbols While Overseeing Delphi Murder Suspect​

MSN

Why were the guards wearing Odin patches on their uniforms if not to torment their captive?
MOO

Again, with respect, all you've just stated and in the way you've explained it, doesn't make sense to me. You're discounting things admitted by the D to form an alternative theory that, IMO, isn't supported by facts released. AJMO

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm pages behind but want to bump in to (respond in general to an assortment of posts to) say that it CAN be the case that there's DNA at the scene, DNA that doesn't match RA, but DNA that establishes a strong link. Damning linkage.

DNA from a family pet.

Transfer DNA from RA's family. (As in the LISK case, where a strand of the innocent wife's hair was left on a victim. Transfer.)

And even more incriminating, DNA in the other direction. DNA from one or both girls on anything RA owned, clothing, vehicle, home

Also damning, anything in his possession with both his DNA and theirs.

At trial, I don't think we'll be underwhelmed by the State's evidence. I think it will be glaring, overwhelming, devastating.

JMO

Links are not available at the Wayback machine, but older posts were discussing MSM articles where all indications were there was DNA.

from: IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #69

"He said part of their investigation will include comparing Nations' DNA to the DNA found near the Monon High Bridge Trail, where Libby German and Abby Williams were found."

I also specifically recall that POI of the day, Daniel Nations, was ruled out because LE said his DNA did not match.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Information the prosecution has that we haven’t seen yet

—cell phone records(questions it could answer: was RA checking the stock ticker or striding, head down, like a man on a mission like witnesses claim; was his phone on; who did he call that day and days before and after; are records even available from 2017)
—DNA(was RA’s at the crime scene; was anyone in RA’s family DNA at the crime scene including pets; was Libby or Abby’s found anywhere in RA’s house or car or clothes)
—testimony from people about RA’s behavior leading up to and after 2/13/17(did RA enter rehab or a mental institution after 2/13/17)
—security camera video(follow RA’s car to and from trails; confirm timeline)
—RA’s history(we know so little about him)
—evidence gleaned from the search warrant( things of the girls; souvenirs from the crime scene; knives)
—computer evidence(photos or video from crime scene; search history; emails)
—work records(was RA off that day; how was his attendance after 2/13/17)

 

[Yemelyan]

Thanks for finding that!
It is ambiguous wording by DC (as usual, imo), but it’s not the exact same Q&A that I’m remembering. In the link you’ve provided, DC is more strongly’suggesting’ that they have human DNA than in the conversation that I’m thinking about.

MOO
& thx again for trying to help jog my memory. Now that I’m caught up, I see that several sleuths have already brought up the pet hair possibility.

You could be remembering when Robert Ives (former prosecutor, pre-dating Allen's arrest) said in an interview with the Down the Hill podcast producers that "All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence [there] than at that crime scene. And it’s probably not what you would imagine, or what people think that I’m talking about. It’s probably not."

He was contrasting the Delphi crime scene with other crime scenes he had dealt with in the course of his career that were more straightforward. This is the same interview in which he said there were a variety of things at the Delphi crime scene that were "odd". You can read a full transcript of this interview here: Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights