Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[HOPE770145]

The white thing looks bulky and looks tied around his neck, That got me thinking maybe he's homeless and carrying his blanket or makeshift tent under the jacket. And the face red from sleeping rough.

He may be a homeless killer that ups and moves around often. Maybe why police are struggling to catch him.

I can't see a red face nor a blanket. <modsnip>

 

[HOPE770145]

Not that I’ve noticed. But the crime scene and forensics collected at the time haven’t changed since 2018. I’d be surprised if all the same investigators and other specialists within the multi-agency task force have been in place over the 3+ year period. Why this case isn’t solved yet isn’t due to the fact that the murders occurred outside a small town, lack of experience or access to modern forensic tools etc IMO.

But what I do wonder - for example, Carter is superintendent of ISP based in Indianapolis, obviously chosen as the public spokesperson of the multi-agency task force. I’m curious if all the other independent units involved (Sheriff and Prosecutor Carroll County, Delphi Police Chief, FBI, etc) are as collectively cohesive in their theories and direction of the investigation as it might appear.

Something is strange with this whole story. IMO

 

[rosesfromangels]

Charlot,
LE has good reasons not to share crime scene information,

Respectfully snipped for commentary response.
Thank you for reinforcing this. LE wants to insure the Coward is convicted. Only LE and the Coward know the specifics of that crime scene. LE doesn't want to jeopardize a conviction by leaked information. I am just fine with not knowing at this point. Further, for the dignity of the girls, there are certain things the general public doesn't ever need to know. The jurors will hear what they need to hear, and will see photos that will likely haunt them the rest of their lives.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

I've been watching the DNA forensics on another case, and the reality is that it is a very loooong process. There is all sorts of bureaucracy, and with precious few resources and the expense, it has to be justified an approved by multiple layers of officials. Familial testing, which one would think is fast and cheap, would be the first path; but it isn't. It seems to take a congressional act to get it done.

We have the technology, we need to cut through the bureaucracy, considering it's a public safety issue. We know the violence of this crime suggests this wasn't his first, nor will it likely be his last (unless we apprehend him ASAP).

If any of Libby or Abby's family is reading this - perhaps this is a new bill that you can help advocate for; automatic familial DNA testing in murder cases.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Beyond the question of “Does LE have DNA” next comes “Does it consist of a full and complete DNA profile”?

Just my guess, crime scene forensics was unable to obtain a full DNA profile because of the outdoor crime scene undiscovered until the following day, additionally involving a creek (wetness/water). A partial profile can be used to eliminate certain POIs but it wouldn’t identify any one person or be useful in identifying close relatives via familial testing. I think this is the reason for the wiggle-wobbling over if LE has DNA or not. A partial DNA profile could also be the reason that LE have stated mentioning the “reddish-brown hair” and maybe even “not blue eyes”, if those certain DNA markers were indeed present.

About the difficulty encountered when processing outdoor crime scenes -

Collecting DNA Evidence at Outdoor Crime Scenes
Outdoor Crime Scene
Home > 2. Crime Scenes > Outdoor Crime Scene

An outdoor crime scene is the most vulnerable to loss, contamination and damaging effects on biological evidence in a short period of time. Individuals with access to the scene can potentially alter, destroy or contaminate evidence. The risk is greatest when the crime scene is not properly secured.​

Destruction or deterioration of evidence due to environmental conditions, such as heat, cold, rain, snow and wind call for rapid and effective protection of biological evidence. Evidence that cannot be protected under these conditions should be quickly collected without compromising its integrity.....​

Module 02 :: Outdoor Crime Scene​

 

[MistyWaters]

Something is strange with this whole story. IMO

I don’t think it’s strange. Almost 50,000 tips, that’s a lot of look-alikes. While the video, photo and the audio that Libby captured are extremely helpful in eliminating a great number of suspects based on general body shape, height and skin colour, etc, unfortunately nothing is quite distinctive enough to identify any specific individual.

LE cannot solve homicides without evidence and in this case by all accounts they’re suggesting not enough can be obtained through their own resources so they require a good tip from somebody who personally knows of this guy. Incriminating tips from friends/relatives/acquaintances are often what nails criminal cases so LE is still waiting for somebody to come forward.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Beyond the question of “Does LE have DNA” next comes “Does it consist of a full and complete DNA profile”?

Just my guess, crime scene forensics was unable to obtain a full DNA profile because of the outdoor crime scene undiscovered until the following day, additionally involving a creek (wetness/water). A partial profile can be used to eliminate certain POIs but it wouldn’t identify any one person or be useful in identifying close relatives via familial testing. I think this is the reason for the wiggle-wobbling over if LE has DNA or not. A partial DNA profile could also be the reason that LE have stated mentioning the “reddish-brown hair” and maybe even “not blue eyes”, if those certain DNA markers were indeed present.

About the difficulty encountered when processing outdoor crime scenes -

Collecting DNA Evidence at Outdoor Crime Scenes
Outdoor Crime Scene
Home > 2. Crime Scenes > Outdoor Crime Scene

An outdoor crime scene is the most vulnerable to loss, contamination and damaging effects on biological evidence in a short period of time. Individuals with access to the scene can potentially alter, destroy or contaminate evidence. The risk is greatest when the crime scene is not properly secured.​

Destruction or deterioration of evidence due to environmental conditions, such as heat, cold, rain, snow and wind call for rapid and effective protection of biological evidence. Evidence that cannot be protected under these conditions should be quickly collected without compromising its integrity.....​

Module 02 :: Outdoor Crime Scene​

These are all real possibilities. That said, given we have been told the girls put up a valiant fight, I'm holding on to the hope there is plenty of evidence under the nails, and so forth. If determination is any indicator of success, we can count on an arrest. Gratitude to all the LE agencies who have been putting so much in to this case. I know we all feel like these are little cousins of ours at this point. Best pals right to the end, our two Roses.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[pearl]

Some of my thoughts. I think BG came to the trails that day prepared to kill if the opportunity arose, a predatory lurker. I would say familiarity with the trails is a given. I do not think a possible earlier encounter that did not end well in no way should be interpreted as the girls contributing in any way to their deaths. I have myself been in the presence of people whose behavior is so far out of the normal range that it brought a gut reaction to me. Some people just emit bad vibes. This could have happened thus Libby videoing him. I think he had them targeted by the time they reached the bridge. Whether he had targeted them before the impromptu bridge trip I am beginning to change my thoughts. I now think there is a possible connection between the phone reset and the murder. I just think he had to be physically near them when Libby took Abby's picture on the bridge. I've even wondered if he could have somehow been on the bridge's understructure. It just seems too short a timespan for Libby's picture which does not show him and then his approach of the girls at the end of the bridge.

 

[Charlot123]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

I often feel sorry for DC and the whole ISP department. I think that they are trying to do the best to keep the case alive and nail the murderer. Even if they made some mistakes due to inexperience, initially, they have more than amended for it by the energy and the time they have put into the investigation.

 

[IceIce9]

I often feel sorry for DC and the whole ISP department. I think that they are trying to do the best to keep the case alive and nail the murderer. Even if they made some mistakes due to inexperience, initially, they have more than amended for it by the energy and the time they have put into the investigation.

I wonder, though, whether mistakes and inexperience early on in the case could have caused irreparable harm. For example, in collecting evidence and DNA from the scene.


Not saying it did, but I definitely think it is a possibility. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Certain professions seem to attract psychopaths. Many surgeons, cops, ministers, politicians, entertainers, and college professors are psychopaths, to give a few examples.

Owners of family motels...
I think as new professions emerge, we shall see more psychopaths among programmers, too.

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder, though, whether mistakes and inexperience early on in the case could have caused irreparable harm. For example, in collecting evidence and DNA from the scene.


Not saying it did, but I definitely think it is a possibility. MOO

What about potential coroner's mistakes? This is the part we shall never know about.

 

[Andreee]

I think you're probably correct. He might have been 'fishing' or 'hunting'. Do you think he went after the girls specifically 'them' or because they were the ones that were there? Maybe he was there to see who he could find.

I think he was there just to see who he could find, one or two young females specificially, and unfortunately found them.

 

[HOPE770145]

Well said as always. Let's help make it so.

100%

 

[HOPE770145]

Well said as always. Let's help make it so.

100

I did. I even looked up hospitals and medical departments around Delphi. To my surprise, there were enough.

I come from the family of doctors in several generations. And the ones who could not be doctors, because they were uneducated farmers, ended up self-taught vets, so I can observe the traits running through generations. First, they say that about 1/4 of medical school students have OCD, and it makes sense. For the job, it is good. But OCD is tightly linked with the fear of losing control, so think of where it leads you from there.

About surgeons, they have not “God complex”, but “Savior’s complex”. It is different, because this is what probably prompts people to become surgeons, but they can get a chip on the shoulder, too. Your friend’s acquaintance’s husband is extreme, but it is an interesting area to discuss.

The belief one is in control is an illusion to begin with. Break the Illusion. We only control our own actions and reactions.

 

[Davemac1]

Hi all. First post

Have the police ever staged an official reconstruction of events as they see them?
It's something that used to happen in the UK all of the time and shown on prime time TV.
It would be good to know how they see the movements of this guy before and after the crime, based on evidence,eyewitnesses whatever. They must have a pretty solid idea.
Surely they don't think this would hinder the case?
They wouldn't have to give details of the murder itself.

 

[Ozoner]

So I am from a state that is one of the most neutral in accents and any accent really jumps out at me. It's definitely a "country" midwest accent IMO. That might sound snooty, but I hear this accent all day. I now live near Indiana and also spend a lot of time in northern Michigan...I didn't think Michigan hearing him, to me he has more of a southern sound...not a deep "y'all" type southern, but rural Indiana, Kentucky. He sounds exactly like I would expect someone from a small town in Indiana to sound like. The only thing that doesn't match with me is the new sketch and his voice. I hear thick jowls, years of smoking, age.

There's a definite difference between central Indiana and Kentucky. I don't hear Kentucky at all. If he had a Kentucky accent, guys would be pronounced more like gaahs, IMO. I don't think I can distinguish northern/central Indiana from northern/ central Ohio and surrounding areas, but if you get into southern Ohio and Indiana, there's a noticeable southern drawl.

 

[MistyWaters]

These are all real possibilities. That said, given we have been told the girls put up a valiant fight, I'm holding on to the hope there is plenty of evidence under the nails, and so forth. If determination is any indicator of success, we can count on an arrest. Gratitude to all the LE agencies who have been putting so much in to this case. I know we all feel like these are little cousins of ours at this point. Best pals right to the end, our two Roses.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I’d like to be hopeful too so you can be for both of us because by the suspect’s photo, he is not revealing a whole lot of bare skin. Unless either Libby or Abby made contact with his face or hands, no DNA may’ve been found under their fingernails depending on the circumstances. I also note early on LE mentioned nothing about the suspect possibly displaying or attempting to hide visible scratches, which sometimes they do if they’ve successfully recovered skin from underneath the victims fingernails. So I’m not quite certain there’s anything greater than hope there might be.

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder, though, whether mistakes and inexperience early on in the case could have caused irreparable harm. For example, in collecting evidence and DNA from the scene.


Not saying it did, but I definitely think it is a possibility. MOO

I wonder too and my opinion only, not a proven fact, but I think a large scale media presence descending into the town, helicopters hovering around, reporters hanging out with far-vision lens, all the activity happening while being thrust into the limelight in general might have been a hinderance especially to police departments and specialized units not used to a lot of public attention at all.

 

[CocoChanel]

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[MistyWaters]

Hi all. First post

Have the police ever staged an official reconstruction of events as they see them?
It's something that used to happen in the UK all of the time and shown on prime time TV.
It would be good to know how they see the movements of this guy before and after the crime, based on evidence,eyewitnesses whatever. They must have a pretty solid idea.
Surely they don't think this would hinder the case?
They wouldn't have to give details of the murder itself.

Welcome! No, there has been no reconstructions by LE. Quite early on iirc LE said they’d been in contact with everyone walking on the trail area that day except for the suspect and if so, a reconstruction would be unnecessary because LE would know what any of them saw, or didn’t see.

By not releasing that sort of information, LE is able to vet what they already know against what a potential witness is telling them. I wouldn’t doubt they’ve already received a lot of fabricated and falty-memory tips, a hazard to every investigation and why LE frequently refers to “protecting the integrity of the investigation” by not showing their hand. JMO