Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[HOPE770145]

With all due respect; how do you know the FBI didn't "haul them all in" for interrogations? IMO, this implies you believe family members cannot be trusted. I can assure you, they have all been scrutinized with a fine-tooth comb. THEY ARE VICTIMS in the case. Not suspects- unless and until LE indicates they are.

Should you desire to learn more about the case (and whether or not family members or friends were interrogated), please check out the media thread, photos, videos, maps, timelines, Terms of Service, etc. They are a wealth of information, and can bring you (and any other new member up-to-speed). Links can be found on page 1 of every thread. I will post below for your convenience.

Special Rules for the Case:
Found on page 1 of every thread.
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

One of WS long-time members (margarita25) spent a great deal of time organizing each MSM article, videos, Press Conferences and photos available (in chronological order). You can find the beginning of her posts at the bottom of page 35:
Media Maps and Timelines:
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Image Discussion Thread:
Found Deceased - IN - IMAGE discussion re Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi

Case Map:
Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - خرائطي على Google

Approved YouTube Channel(s):
Gray Hughes Investigates
Kelsi German

Down The Hill Podcasts:
https://www.downthehillpodcast.com

Scene of the Crime Podcasts:
Kelsi German

Rules- Etiquette & Information:
Rules - Etiquette & Information

Hope this information is helpful. We are now on Thread #122. Many members currently posting have been participating on the thread since the beginning (February 2017). The thread has been shut down (more than once), due to failure in following rules. We all want justice for Abby and Libby- their families too. Understanding the rules will help to prevent thread closure in the future.

They've done a great job so far.

 

[HOPE770145]

Pardon my lack of knowledge in the area of smartphones. I do well with computers. Lucky for me my husband is retired IT. I have a smartphone and just use the basics like calling, camera, and internet. This phone has more capabilities than I will ever use. I am thinking of the factory reset Libby did to her phone shortly before the murders. Is there any way one person can remotely control or interfere with the cell phone of another person?

Wow, I wonder why she did that.

 

[scruffydog]

I used to live a couple of hours away from there. Not familiar with Delphi at all but to me he sounds typical of Northern Indiana, Illinois, Southern Michigan. Mid-western. I also think he's not a teenager. IMO
I have only recently become aware of this case. I'm sure it's been discussed and dissected to the nth degree and I won't / can't say anything new. But what a shame this heinous crime has not been solved.

I used to live a couple of hours away from there. Not familiar with Delphi at all but to me he sounds typical of Northern Indiana, Illinois, Southern Michigan. Mid-western. I also think he's not a teenager. IMO
I have only recently become aware of this case. I'm sure it's been discussed and dissected to the nth degree and I won't / can't say anything new. But what a shame this heinous crime has not been solved.

 

[scruffydog]

I’m from northern lower Michigan, and BG’s accent is normal midwestern. He sounds like anyone I know.

 

[HOPE770145]

Same here.

Northern IN, IL, MI.

I think he's from the region, but maybe not right in Delphi or Carroll Cty.

JMO

He could literally by anyone that fits that description. Between sketch 1 and 2. Why isnt this case solved yet, they have a video they have partial prints and DNA? Just makes me wonder what the heck is going on.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

If the killer is the guy on the bridge, the BG, I can not call him weak. He took a risk of abducting two teenagers from a bridge in broad daylight, and murdering them - either immediately, and if not immediately, then bringing them back later. It is all risky.

I think he has two traits. One, he is... how to even say... for him murdering people who somehow stand in his way would be the easiest solution to a problem. Usually it is the opposite way, and not only because of morality, maybe out of fear, too. People usually try to exhaust peaceful ways of negotiating. Even Italian Mafia, if Mario Puzo is to be believed, tried to "reason" with the person first, and only then kill, if reasoning would not work.

It could be modern mafia, god knows how they think. But I still believe that "teenage" factor is frowned upon even among them. Unless they feel "dissed" by the young women (also a factor to be considered).

Or it is the person whose thinking pattern is very odd? He enjoys killing, and he probably enjoys "problem solving" that involves killings.

He is not lazy - it takes a lot of time and energy to plan and execute.

I wonder if there is a good psychological portrait of him. I am not asking myself where he lives. I assume he could live anywhere. But - what are his hobbies? They all say, hunting and fishing, outdoorsy activity. I bet he likes to play games, but are these puzzles, board games or computer games? I bet he is a collector, but what does he collect? Is he like Eric Harris, very nice-looking, polite, even, a former gifted kid with undiagnosed mood disorder, who is totally psychotic inside but able to pull himself together for the spectators? Or is he more detached and odd?

At this, professionally, it does not imply "a trained murderer". I have read about long-term executioners, who did not enjoy their jobs (doing it very well at this), and ended up committing suicide. No, it is just a personal pattern of thinking.

I wish we could find out, one day. Because it is all in the genes...

Thank you for your thoughts. They are all good ones, although I will have to respectfully disagree with him not being weak. I definitely think someone who kills children is weak, even if it is a high risk crime. He may not view himself that way, that was just my personal opinion on the type of person we are looking at here.

I do agree that this could have possibly been a revenge killing. I’ve considered that more than once. I’ve also wondered if one or both of the girls knew or saw something they weren’t supposed to know/see, although I think that would suggest BG knew they would be there that day, and how would he know? There’s so much about this case that is plain weird, but also I do think there is something MAJOR that’s been left out.

 

[mom2chloe]

I’m no good with differences in accents in America, but does the guy on the audio sound like he has a local accent? Or is it impossible to tell?

here in the U.K. for example I’d be able to tell if the guy had a Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle etc accent. Local to me I could tell if someone was from one of a few areas that are pretty close to one another. But that’s because the variation in the accents is quite easy to spot for me. Is the accent in Delphi a prominent one or pretty widespread and generic across a large area?

For whatever reason that we are not privy to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations were called in very early on in the investigation. Even more confusing because he definitely does not have a Georgia accent. I would guess Indiana, southern Michigan or certain areas of Ohio or Kentucky. IMHO he does not have a southern accent or drawl. Born and raised in the areas for what it’s worth. No idea what possible ties to Georgia might include but I can say with absolute certainty he does not speak in a Georgia or southern fashion. MOO

 

[mom2chloe]

I used to live a couple of hours away from there. Not familiar with Delphi at all but to me he sounds typical of Northern Indiana, Illinois, Southern Michigan. Mid-western. I also think he's not a teenager. IMO
I have only recently become aware of this case. I'm sure it's been discussed and dissected to the nth degree and I won't / can't say anything new. But what a shame this heinous crime has not been solved.

Do we have any Michigan, Illinois or Iowa members willing to weigh in on his voice and accent please? I can only ascertain what his voice and accent do not indicate. Any help would be much appreciated! TIA!
ETA my apologies I missed a few previous posts regarding same. Sorry!

 

[MistyWaters]

For whatever reason that we are not privy to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations were called in very early on in the investigation. Even more confusing because he definitely does not have a Georgia accent. I would guess Indiana, southern Michigan or certain areas of Ohio or Kentucky. IMHO he does not have a southern accent or drawl. Born and raised in the areas for what it’s worth. No idea what possible ties to Georgia might include but I can say with absolute certainty he does not speak in a Georgia or southern fashion. MOO

At the time the reason given was simply for additional oversight, much the same as peer review IMO.

Georgia investigators, FBI review Delphi case
“Call 6 Investigates has learned that Delphi investigators have asked the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and agents from other FBI field offices to look over the case with a fresh set of eyes in and offer recommendations in the hopes of finding the missing puzzle piece that will help them solve the crimes.

Those recommendations and conclusions are not being released to the public, but the expertise of outside departments is meant to assist in making sure that no stone is left unturned in the search for Libby and Abby's killer.....”

 

[Ravenmoon]

Down the Hill - podcast
Episode 5: Signatures

Chapter 5: Signatures from Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders

Interview with Robert Ives
(He was the prosecuting attorney for Carroll County at the time of the murders.)

"There were a variety of things at the crime scene.... that were not just 'this is your regular person was killed here crime scene'."

"It's probably not what you would imagine... where people think that I'm talking about... it's probably not because of the unique circumstances--and all unique circumstances you kind of think as a signature."

"There is no clear modus operandi."

"There were two or three things [that I consider signatures]."

"I think it was probably somebody local because it's just not a tourist spot. It's such an unlikely place to be. It's not that famous."

"I do think it will be solved because it's so odd and so unusual, and people are so compelled to talk about the evil things they do. I think this person will either talk to it about someone, or alternatively, they will commit another crime and get caught, and hopefully, confess to this one. Either because they want the fame, or alternatively, because they're trying to make a deal."

[If this person kills again] "...I think that possibly one or two of those [signatures] could pop up again, yes."

"There's less additional information [on the audio/video] than people think there might be."

Q: Were you ever presented with possible suspects?
"Not in the sense where somebody said, 'Do you think there's enough evidence here to charge this person?' but in the sense of 'We have this, and this, and this... what do you think?' Yes. There was some of that, and I would go so far as to say that I believe there's at least one person--or probably a couple of them--that I believe could have committed the crime."

"This was a daylight crime in an area where people could have come along, and I just can't see it as a big master plan. I think it's more a person committed a horrible crime and then they took off. And nobody--or if anybody--saw them, we haven't been able to pinpoint it."

"I do not believe it was a planned crime. Personally, that doesn't make any sense to me."

"I don't think there's any evidence they were lured out there. They just decided to go for a walk. For somebody to know that right then, they'd be there... I don't believe that."


Interview with Mary Ellen O'Toole
(She worked for the FBI for 20 years and more than half of that time was spent working with the Behavior Analysis Unit.)

"Signature behavior is behavior that the offender engages in at a crime scene that is over and beyond what is necessary to complete the crime, and generally, is behavior that is satisfying to the offender--whether it's psychologically satisfying or sexually satisfying behavior."

"The offender will generally attempt to repeat the signature behavior--not the MO, modus operandi, that's something completely different--because that's why he's committing the crime in the first place."

Q: Is it common to have multiple signatures?
"It's certainly possible. Generally, if there are multiple signatures it's because you have a series of crimes. It could be sexual behavior. It could be post-mortem activity. But, if there's sexual behavior, then yes, you could have more than one or two signature behaviors."

"Signatures can happen at any point--before, or during, or after the crime. For example, predatory behavior before the murder scene can be a signature. Post-mortem mutilation after the murders can be a signature."

"Odd behavior might be, again, post-mortem mutilation--what is done to the victims after they've been murdered. It could include redressing the victims. It could include dismemberment. It could include insertion of foreign objects. It could be the placement, and the replacement, of the victims' bodies. It could be the infliction... damage... to the victims, both before death or after death. It could be, again, engaging with the victims in a certain way that is considered odd.

This is why I felt strongly that what DC implied was referencing a particular suspect. I appreciate the time and effort in putting this information out there.

 

[Charlot123]

I used to live a couple of hours away from there. Not familiar with Delphi at all but to me he sounds typical of Northern Indiana, Illinois, Southern Michigan. Mid-western. I also think he's not a teenager. IMO
I have only recently become aware of this case. I'm sure it's been discussed and dissected to the nth degree and I won't / can't say anything new. But what a shame this heinous crime has not been solved.

Same here.

Northern IN, IL, MI.

I think he's from the region, but maybe not right in Delphi or Carroll Cty.

JMO

I’m from northern lower Michigan, and BG’s accent is normal midwestern. He sounds like anyone I know.

Do we have any Michigan, Illinois or Iowa members willing to weigh in on his voice and accent please? I can only ascertain what his voice and accent do not indicate. Any help would be much appreciated! TIA!

I can say only one thing. Accents easily change, too. I first noticed it in my mom who was raised in a certain area of my native country and was very gifted linguistically. When she moved to a larger city, she immediately acquired the accent of that area - you would never say she was not born there. When she’d return back to visit her family, in a day she’d speak like the locals. Same history with my dad - of his own dialect, he retained just one letter in one word he’d pronounce differently, you would not catch it, and when he’d visit his family, he’d speak like a local.
I can say a lot about accents, but the gist is, we easily “slide in and out”. So if this guy lived in Indiana in childhood and then moved to Northwest, I assure you, he speaks with Northwestern accent at home, but two days back in Indiana would have been enough to restore old accent. All that “accentologists” can probably say is that at a certain time in his life he spoke with this accent, not where he lives now. The reverse is also true, he could have been brought up in Georgia and later, moved to Midwest.

 

[HOPE770145]

At the time the reason given was simply for additional oversight, much the same as peer review IMO.

Georgia investigators, FBI review Delphi case
“Call 6 Investigates has learned that Delphi investigators have asked the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and agents from other FBI field offices to look over the case with a fresh set of eyes in and offer recommendations in the hopes of finding the missing puzzle piece that will help them solve the crimes.

Those recommendations and conclusions are not being released to the public, but the expertise of outside departments is meant to assist in making sure that no stone is left unturned in the search for Libby and Abby's killer.....”

I love this, but this was posted in 2018. I am confused, have they mentioned anything about it since then? ty

 

[sunshineray]

The Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force was involved in that so I'm assuming the phone was in not the best shape. Moo

Paula, I didn't realize this particular task force was involved. I reading about them, it says...
"Program is a national network of 61 coordinated taskforces representing over 4,500 federal, state, and local law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies. These agencies are continually engaged in proactive and reactive investigations and prosecutions of persons involved in child abuse and exploitation involving the Internet."

That description, to me, wouldn't cover a victim's phone found at the crime scene unless it was thought to have been used by the killer to abuse or exploit a child victim, that the killer had involved themselves with the victim(s) via that phone or through the internet, in general, no matter the device.

What are your thoughts?

I always remember the early LE warning about knowing what your children are up to (paraphrasing). Being that the family knew what the girl's plans were and were involved in dropping and picking them up, I've always thought that warning a bit misplaced for the situation.

If that internet task force was involved in the investigation it makes me wonder all the more about the possibility of catfishing playing a part in this.

 

[Brubon]

Do we have any Michigan, Illinois or Iowa members willing to weigh in on his voice and accent please? I can only ascertain what his voice and accent do not indicate. Any help would be much appreciated! TIA!
ETA my apologies I missed a few previous posts regarding same. Sorry!

I was raised in western Michigan. As a grown adult I have lived in southern Michigan for 48 years. I worked with a man from Findley, Ohio....this man has been deceased for quite some time. The minute I heard BG's voice...I thought it sounded like the man raised in northern Ohio. Having spent lots of time in Fort Wayne...I feel he could also be from northern Indiana. I do not hear southern Michigan.
MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I hadn't been a member here or knew much about this case, but then I saw a YouTube video that I thought might help out here, and I wanted to mention it to you. But as I go about life, I think of various aspects and possibilities of this, and if this has already been brought up, my apologies. I haven't been a member here long, only a month, I haven't seen most of what you have gone through, written and considered. I've only been in this thread.
I don't know anything about either of these girls, so please forgive my comments, they aren't meant to offend, I'm just throwing different suggestions out there.
I'm under the impression most of you believe the killer is an adult. Not a tall teenage boy, is that correct? Several of you talk about various jobs the person might hold. You say the killer had a lot of anger towards Libby. (I don't know where you get this, so if this isn't a generally considered possibility, my apologies).
If this killer is a reasonably intelligent adult, what could Libby know about him to cause him to be angry enough to kill her and Abby? Was this 'anger in the moment' or anger as in he's allowed his anger to fester and grow? I would think it would have to be some kind of major crime for him to be willing to kill two innocent young girls. Has anyone really thought about what she could 'have on the guy' to drive him to kill not just her but Abby, too? Are they supposed to have known this guy's name, or did Libby see or hear something the guy did, or did the killer just think that? Did he do something to Libby, or to someone she knows? (Did Libby or Abby babysit?) Could he have sexually assaulted someone and she knew about it? Could he have made sexual advances to someone underage and he believed she saw/heard/was aware of it?

Could these murders be related to some sort of sexual advances the killer made to an underage female or could he even have molested a young child the girls may have known?

Several years ago, I talked to various friends on AOL or AIM IMs, and I accidently found someone (an adult male) I knew in chat rooms there while I was waiting for a friend to log on. (He didn't know who I was and he hit on me, so I talked to him to see where he planned to take the chat. He was married to someone I knew). He was having explicit conversations in instant messages and in emails. I did a little investigating, and even though a few of his 'chat partners' claimed to be over 18, I discovered they were no more than 12 or 13. I was angry at the position the girls put themselves in. They could easily have gotten into a really precarious situation. I wished I could have called up their mothers. These ones were lying about their ages, (I read some of the things and emails), but so was the guy. He was claiming to be younger than he was, oh, and not married. I've seen some of the videos where the men believe they're going to meet a 13 year old or so and it's an undercover cop. I think those guys deserve to get caught.
I was an adult, and I had other training besides being an investigator, before the internet. But the training always helps.

Could someone Libby knew have had personal knowledge of some adult male being involved with an underage female and the killer was worried about his 'family life' being in jeopardy?

Or could this guy have already accidentally or purposely killed someone else and believed Libby or Abby could place him at that crime scene.
Also, you would know better than me, but what crimes occurred in the several months prior to these murders that BG could have had something to do with?
As another thought, is there a sex trafficking problem in Indiana? Child ?
What about drugs? A drug ring in the Delphi area?

Covid-19 has delayed a lot of court cases that would have started in the past few months. Maybe there's one on the docket in that area of Carroll County that could fit your senario?

 

[Charlot123]

I hadn't been a member here or knew much about this case, but then I saw a YouTube video that I thought might help out here, and I wanted to mention it to you. But as I go about life, I think of various aspects and possibilities of this, and if this has already been brought up, my apologies. I haven't been a member here long, only a month, I haven't seen most of what you have gone through, written and considered. I've only been in this thread.
I don't know anything about either of these girls, so please forgive my comments, they aren't meant to offend, I'm just throwing different suggestions out there.
I'm under the impression most of you believe the killer is an adult. Not a tall teenage boy, is that correct? Several of you talk about various jobs the person might hold. You say the killer had a lot of anger towards Libby. (I don't know where you get this, so if this isn't a generally considered possibility, my apologies).
If this killer is a reasonably intelligent adult, what could Libby know about him to cause him to be angry enough to kill her and Abby? Was this 'anger in the moment' or anger as in he's allowed his anger to fester and grow? I would think it would have to be some kind of major crime for him to be willing to kill two innocent young girls. Has anyone really thought about what she could 'have on the guy' to drive him to kill not just her but Abby, too? Are they supposed to have known this guy's name, or did Libby see or hear something the guy did, or did the killer just think that? Did he do something to Libby, or to someone she knows? (Did Libby or Abby babysit?) Could he have sexually assaulted someone and she knew about it? Could he have made sexual advances to someone underage and he believed she saw/heard/was aware of it?

Could these murders be related to some sort of sexual advances the killer made to an underage female or could he even have molested a young child the girls may have known?

Several years ago, I talked to various friends on AOL or AIM IMs, and I accidently found someone (an adult male) I knew in chat rooms there while I was waiting for a friend to log on. (He didn't know who I was and he hit on me, so I talked to him to see where he planned to take the chat. He was married to someone I knew). He was having explicit conversations in instant messages and in emails. I did a little investigating, and even though a few of his 'chat partners' claimed to be over 18, I discovered they were no more than 12 or 13. I was angry at the position the girls put themselves in. They could easily have gotten into a really precarious situation. I wished I could have called up their mothers. These ones were lying about their ages, (I read some of the things and emails), but so was the guy. He was claiming to be younger than he was, oh, and not married. I've seen some of the videos where the men believe they're going to meet a 13 year old or so and it's an undercover cop. I think those guys deserve to get caught.
I was an adult, and I had other training besides being an investigator, before the internet. But the training always helps.

Could someone Libby knew have had personal knowledge of some adult male being involved with an underage female and the killer was worried about his 'family life' being in jeopardy?

Or could this guy have already accidentally or purposely killed someone else and believed Libby or Abby could place him at that crime scene.
Also, you would know better than me, but what crimes occurred in the several months prior to these murders that BG could have had something to do with?
As another thought, is there a sex trafficking problem in Indiana? Child ?
What about drugs? A drug ring in the Delphi area?

What if Libby was playing a detective? Tried to catch a local pedophile, maybe a group? If she had some experience with chat rooms, she could have guessed that the person was older than a teenage boy. And she tried to set him up and expose. Dangerously naive, but she was fourteen.

That could have made BG livid.

 

[HOPE770145]

Did someone mention it could be a truck driver on this thread? Cant recall, and if so why do you think POI could be a trucker? thanx

 

[Brubon]

Did someone mention it could be a truck driver on this thread? Cant recall, and if so why do you think POI could be a trucker? thanx

Person Of Interest (POI) could have delivered etc. to the pork processing plant very close to the murder scene.
MOO

 

[Alphafuzz]

Do we have any Michigan, Illinois or Iowa members willing to weigh in on his voice and accent please? I can only ascertain what his voice and accent do not indicate. Any help would be much appreciated! TIA!
ETA my apologies I missed a few previous posts regarding same. Sorry!

I'm a Michigan girl and I've lived all over. I have a pretty good ear for accents. I can almost always tell Northwestern Illinois, Western Ohio, Michigan, and even Ontario, Canada as we all have a nasal sounding a. I have no idea what people from Indiana sound like other than clips I've heard but based on those I didn't catch anything distinctive. I don't think we hear enough words from BG to tell much. I can tell you he's probably not from the Pittsburgh area. Nearly everyone there says down like dahn. Its very distinctive. If I venture a guess I'd say he's from that part of Indiana based on the fact that he sounds like the people I've heard regarding this case.

 

[HOPE770145]

Person Of Interest (POI) could have delivered etc. to the pork processing plant very close to the murder scene.
MOO

yea, hmm, so he could be a truck driver that delivers pigs to be slaughtered, so how many hog farms are there over there with truck drivers that drive them? I would venture out to say he is or was married, probably kids, quiet guy, has issues maintaining a relationship with a woman, mother issues, has had relationship issues especially before during and after the murders, I agree could be a truck driver or farmer JMO. how did he know about the girls being there that day? maybe the POI had a kid stayed home too, or knew the girls from school, maybe sports events. Just thinking out loud here. MO