IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[Midwestmom2019]

In that video where an investigator or officer is demonstrating what happened - it could be that his final gesture which looks like an intentional letting go is not what the GF did but him saying, "and that's when she fell." That part may not be part of what the GF did leading up to the fall.

Even if someone ever leaked the videos, and it's hard to imagine that happening, they would be immediately shut down on any website.

I agree there has probably been a lot of pressure to shut down even discussions of this.

You'd think the family would be exhausted since the beginning and just want to handle this quietly. IMO they are not responsible for going to bat for the GF. I doubt they are all so uniformly supportive of him anyway. Like another person said, over time, a huge amount of different feelings including anger can come out. How can they grieve if they're consumed with exonerating the GF?

In the DM video of the GF and GM at the airport when they were filmed arriving back from PR, the GM looks very exasperated at whatever the GF is saying to her.

First. Do we have that DM video?
Second. From now on, may I suggest we IMMEDIATELY start a time line and media thread. To preserve evidence.

 

[they'll get you]

Ya think?! Winkleman probably sees his huge payday fading fast and is trying to find something - anything - that might sit well with a jury. I hope and pray that jurors clearly see through this lame façade.

When was Winkleman hired and who contacted who?

I’m thinking if the sedated family were in the right minds to hire a pushy lawyer.

 

[LietKynes]

When was Winkleman hired and who contacted who?

I’m thinking if the sedated family were in the right minds to hire a pushy lawyer.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the "sedated" statements.
G-pa could've been exaggerating.
I thought the same during an interview with Lisa Irwin's mother.
However, maybe he wasn't -- and he was just in a complete panic knowing he'd been extremely stupid and might face charges ?
And how can you hire a lawyer if you're in shock and sedated ?
Wouldn't it take time to recover from the effects of the drugs ?

According to the DM which can be an "iffy" source-- the lawyer was hired within 12 hours of the incident and possibly sooner.

Reading around the comments in msm and elsewhere-- I think sympathy was about 99 % in favor of the parents at first; but it began to wane in the light of the lawsuit.

I wondered how they could be in the right mind to be taking photos after she fell/was dropped (Chloe's dad) ; and how did they figure out they needed to sue so soon afterwards ?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

In that video where an investigator or officer is demonstrating what happened - it could be that his final gesture which looks like an intentional letting go is not what the GF did but him saying, "and that's when she fell."First

I wouldn't put too much faith in the "sedated" statements.
G-pa could've been exaggerating.
I thought the same during an interview with Lisa Irwin's mother.
However, maybe he wasn't -- and he was just in a complete panic knowing he'd been extremely stupid and might face charges ?
And how can you hire a lawyer if you're in shock and sedated ?
Wouldn't it take time to recover from the effects of the drugs ?

According to the DM which can be an "iffy" source-- the lawyer was hired within 12 hours of the incident and possibly sooner.

Reading around the comments in msm and elsewhere-- I think sympathy was about 99 % in favor of the parents at first; but it began to wane in the light of the lawsuit.

I wondered how they could be in the right mind to be taking photos after she fell/was dropped (Chloe's dad) ; and how did they figure out they needed to sue so soon afterwards ?

Edited to add:
I’m not sure how first post quoted hit on here, no matter.

Original post.
Posting on F ace. Bk by mom? I couldn’t have been doing anything.
But never mind that. In reviewing Oviedo’s great time line, at 11:24 am, don’t know how to get post numbers, has anyone noticed the odd white thing under the open window? Right side? Covers about half of the bottom window pane. Brackets on the ends, like shelf brackets. Much is covered by some people but seen again from outside of the ship, looks like a cage?
I never noticed that before. Any ideas?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

There was no audio with the video. Supposedly no eye witnesses. Who said SA yelled these words? Let me guess, Winkleman?

After reading about half of the cruise review site, on Norwegian not RCCL, seems all those get deleted immediately, apparently there are eye witnesses to the actual incident. Along with info that poor Chloe was heard screaming. This according to PR prosecutors who insist that they have indefensible proof SA was culpable. The post came off WS somewhere. Timeline then DM?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I wouldn't put too much faith in the "sedated" statements.
G-pa could've been exaggerating.
I thought the same during an interview with Lisa Irwin's mother.
However, maybe he wasn't -- and he was just in a complete panic knowing he'd been extremely stupid and might face charges ?
And how can you hire a lawyer if you're in shock and sedated ?
Wouldn't it take time to recover from the effects of the drugs ?

According to the DM which can be an "iffy" source-- the lawyer was hired within 12 hours of the incident and possibly sooner.

Reading around the comments in msm and elsewhere-- I think sympathy was about 99 % in favor of the parents at first; but it began to wane in the light of the lawsuit.

I wondered how they could be in the right mind to be taking photos after she fell/was dropped (Chloe's dad) ; and how did they figure out they needed to sue so soon afterwards ?

Dad was taking pictures immediately bc he’s a detective. They photograph everything before someone gets a chance to disturb the scene of the crime.
A criminal defense lawyer suggested to a commenter off the timeline thread that SA was advised to hire civil lawyer to deflect the impact of the criminal charges that were sure to come. I thought that was very interesting criminal defense strategy. And maybe why Winkleman continues to beat his drum. Plus, of course, his bank account.

 

[LietKynes]

Edited to add:
I’m not sure how first post quoted hit on here, no matter.

Original post.
Posting on F ace. Bk by mom? I couldn’t have been doing anything.
But never mind that. In reviewing Oviedo’s great time line, at 11:24 am, don’t know how to get post numbers, has anyone noticed the odd white thing under the open window? Right side? Covers about half of the bottom window pane. Brackets on the ends, like shelf brackets. Much is covered by some people but seen again from outside of the ship, looks like a cage?
I never noticed that before. Any ideas?

You can freeze it and then post the numbers, like 11:26 min. into the video.
I'm not seeing what you're describing , sorry.

Maybe it was a bar on the outside of the window-- like a decoration ?
And SA placed Chloe on that part ?
For a better view or to enjoy the breeze ???
Holy moly.
He can't be that stupid.
His boss speaks well of him, so he's capable of holding a job.

 

[LietKynes]

Dad was taking pictures immediately bc he’s a detective. They photograph everything before someone gets a chance to disturb the scene of the crime.
A criminal defense lawyer suggested to a commenter off the timeline thread that SA was advised to hire civil lawyer to deflect the impact of the criminal charges that were sure to come. I thought that was very interesting criminal defense strategy. And maybe why Winkleman continues to beat his drum. Plus, of course, his bank account.

bolding mine

But still, your own child dies and you're thoughts are collected enough that you can take photos ?
I understand what you're saying. Just seems weird to me.
Maybe by the time he took photos he was getting over the shock ?

As far as Winkleman's bank account... hehehehe.... Maybe he has credit card debt ?
A bit of levity never hurts.

 

[they'll get you]

They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port.

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame.

Other passengers then rush to the windows to see what happened. Some are seen walking away, clearly distraught.
Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

 

[katydid23]

I think it all boils down to her banging on glass walls. This was an opportunity to do it on a ship. Except there was no glass this time.

I don't know, Because there was a glass wall right in front of the baby, at her eye level. She could have banged on that glass , no problem. [Even though, in general, I would never teach children to bang on glass windows because not all glass is tempered or strong. It is a dangerous hobby.]

But if it was just a matter of banging on glass, there was no reason to hoist her up to the top window ledge area.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

What page do the comments start appearing? I've skimmed thru 10 pages and haven't seen any yet

I’ve about half. Part of first. Parts of end just bc I hit the wrong button. I didn’t see post from actual cruisers on that day. But I’ll go back and keep reading.
As I remember, the posts were on the Norwegian Line bc RCCL gets deleted. Opens up right to it, after Amazon highjacks it first. Close Amazon. Try again. Worked for me.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

You can freeze it and then post the numbers, like 11:26 min. into the video.
I'm not seeing what you're describing , sorry.

Maybe it was a bar on the outside of the window-- like a decoration ?
And SA placed Chloe on that part ?
For a better view or to enjoy the breeze ???
Holy moly.
He can't be that stupid.
His boss speaks well of him, so he's capable of holding a job.

Think inside bc the shelf brackets are inside the ship. Like a bracket you would insert into metal rod with cuts in it, two of them, screwed into a stud, then the brackets themselves have a hook in back where they slip into the companion cuts on the rod that’s now attached to the wall. Shelf brackets for lack of better description.

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

Edited to add:
I’m not sure how first post quoted hit on here, no matter.

Original post.
Posting on F ace. Bk by mom? I couldn’t have been doing anything.
But never mind that. In reviewing Oviedo’s great time line, at 11:24 am, don’t know how to get post numbers, has anyone noticed the odd white thing under the open window? Right side? Covers about half of the bottom window pane. Brackets on the ends, like shelf brackets. Much is covered by some people but seen again from outside of the ship, looks like a cage?
I never noticed that before. Any ideas?

Are you talking about this thing? Or something else?

Still from video in post 6 of the media thread.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

bolding mine

But still, your own child dies and you're thoughts are collected enough that you can take photos ?
I understand what you're saying. Just seems weird to me.
Maybe by the time he took photos he was getting over the shock ?

As far as Winkleman's bank account... hehehehe.... Maybe he has credit card debt ?
A bit of levity never hurts.

Auto pilot. They are used to horrific scenes. But I see your point, too. I would be comatose. My ex? Would have already strangled SA, or better yet, thrown him through the window, then would start taking pictures. No joke.
We always said, if someone hurt any of the kids, it’d be a race to see who would get to the perp first....

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Are you talking about this thing? Or something else?
View attachment 217227
Still from video in post 6 of the media thread.

YES! Great picture didn’t see it on media thread.
It was at the window where Chloe fell. But on the right side facing out. This one is in the left.

Edited to add:
This looks like a prison window screwed over a movable glass window behind it. For ventilation along the ground? Surely Winkleman can see that the cruise line has safety features along the bottom row to keep kids from falling through open windows...even when open.
I’ll go back and look at time line post. Something else is there, too.

edited bc at least one thing solved here tonight!
It’s the bracket that holds up the metal railing.
But, your picture isn’t the one from police files with yellow tape. I’m pretty sure it’s a ground level ventilation window.
If any one knows, let me know.
Good night to all.

 

[they'll get you]

I don't know, Because there was a glass wall right in front of the baby, at her eye level. She could have banged on that glass , no problem. [Even though, in general, I would never teach children to bang on glass windows because not all glass is tempered or strong. It is a dangerous hobby.]

But if it was just a matter of banging on glass, there was no reason to hoist her up to the top window ledge area.

I agree. The glass is curved out so that anyone in a wheelchair or child can look down and out.

The only reason to lift her up was to see out the window.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Are you talking about this thing? Or something else?
View attachment 217227
Still from video in post 6 of the media thread.

Look at the color difference as well. Double panes as opposed to the single panes. But still clearly aqua/blue. The window was open so the window next to them would have had to have been double colored. Intense blue. And he didn’t see the difference?????

 

[sl222]

When was Winkleman hired and who contacted who?

He was hired within a day or two at the most. He was giving statements by then.

If anyone can't see the Cruise Critic thread, it's still here - you have to scroll down a bit before you can see the comments. Unfortunately the thread was closed for new comments but it is 29 pages and well worth reading. This links to the last page of it:

Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

 

[max99]

I’ve about half. Part of first. Parts of end just bc I hit the wrong button. I didn’t see post from actual cruisers on that day. But I’ll go back and keep reading.
As I remember, the posts were on the Norwegian Line bc RCCL gets deleted. Opens up right to it, after Amazon highjacks it first. Close Amazon. Try again. Worked for me.

I don't remember what page (16 maybe) but the only reference that I could find to a person that was on the cruise was someone that saw a comment on a Newsweek article:

"We were there. Royal Caribbean is not to blame for this horrific accident. The whole story has not been told." - Orange Popsicle

I googled it but could not find the actual comment or the Newsweek article.

 

[sl222]

First. Do we have that DM video?
Second. From now on, may I suggest we IMMEDIATELY start a time line and media thread. To preserve evidence.

I have looked for that video in a lot of places but can't find it. Only just brief clips of the man who was demonstrating but not the part we have been referring to.

One thing I did notice today. The shot of the window location from outside the ship, and the shot of the window from inside, are not the same window. One is just a a couple of windows away from where the windows end and a wall begins.

I have noticed that little white section with the locked bars. Maybe that is for some kind of maintenance.

One thing I am wondering now reading more description. Did Chloe approach the windows coming directly from the pool area, walking straight across that lounge area where the window are located? Or did she and the GF walk down the hallway a bit like in the video showing a stroll down the area? If straight across then there's less familiarity with the wall of windows because you come straight up to them from a different area just a few feet away, with less familiarity of the whereabouts. But we don't know how familiar GF is with the ship. Just trying to make sense of it.

(However if you look at the window to see the view 3 times as GF did, then how could you miss that it was open. Not to mention - he should see that her feet are basically outside the window.)

Not paying attention to one's surroundings is never good especially when you're in a new area and with a little child.

I think that if a child fell, no matter what you feared the outcome was, your very first reaction would be to rush down to the dock however you could (as one person said, it's not easy to figure out how, but I think one would be desperate to hope that by some miracle she had survived).