IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[SaguaroSpirit]

How could anyone even form a coherent sentence after seeing a baby fall to her death like that? I’m thinking he would instantly be in shock.

Well, I could offer my opinion on that but I'd likely get TO, banned or at the very least have my post scrubbed...

 

[Midwestmom2019]

How could anyone even form a coherent sentence after seeing a baby fall to her death like that? I’m thinking he would instantly be in shock.

It’s called an “excited utterance” and is an exception to hearsay legal rules. Not thinking is exactly why it’s permitted. He blurted out the truth before thinking about saying I thought there was glass there. You lawyers out there? That’s still the law, I believe.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Deleted. Double post

 

[MsMarple]

I would ask the attorney "If Chloe had fallen back from the railing and landed at grandpa's feet but died from her injuries, who would be responsible for Chloe's death?"

Imagine signage on all floors at 3’ apart saying ‘no sitting on these stair railings’ and on coffee cups saying ‘contents may be hot and third degree burns may occur’

I can see many places where signs can be put including at the dessert bar warning diabetics in 5 different languages.

IIRC there are signs around the pool of no diving no running as surface may be wet and slippery.

Yeah, it's hard to imagine what would be sufficient. Chloe's mom asked why there were no screens in the windows in an interview.
Parents of toddler who fell from cruise ship share ‘unfathomable’ grief
A potential problem is that having a screen in the window could cause someone to feel falsely secure as screens can pop out if pushed on. Or metal bars/grid could injure someone who bumps their head while looking out. Or a child could be injured by sitting on a rail.

My point is that just about anything could be construed to be a hazard - if used improperly. Winkleman mentioned having warning signs, which may be adequate for the average passenger.

But would a sign have stopped SA from propping Chloe up on the railing? I have my doubts, based on the fact that he had a number of tickets from failing to use his car seat belts and apparently he never read the ship's Guest Conduct Policy or read it and decided to ignore it. Past behavior and all that. All MOO.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

So how does the "act of games" we keep hearing about figure into the equation?

The rocking back and forth he could have pretended that he was going to drop her but it resulted in him actually dropping her.

 

[ilovewings]

I hate this case. It's disgusting, horrifying and was COMPLETELY preventable. I think Winkleman needs to be charged with some kind of slander for repeatedly spreading lies and misinformation about the location of the CRIME and changing the story. He is a piece of work.

Sad to say the parents are a piece of work--their initial response in blaming
The cruise ship and steadfast denial that grandpa did anything wrong , resulted in
Opening the door for this attorney to spread lies---and yes this is a disgusting and horrifying case populated by disgusting people--it was preventable--grandpa chose to lift that child into an open window, which resulted in the child's horrific death

 

[mickey2942]

I guess that I don't really see any shades of grey here. SA dropped Chloe, an innocent baby, off the deck.

I don't even know why the charges are so light. This man is as guilty as the man who threw the little boy off of the balcony at Mall of America, but he doesn't have the defense of being mentally ill.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Who is Winkleman Representing? W Regard to What Matter?
@Midwestmom2019 bbm IIRC, in early days MSM said G'father went to appt at PR LE and on adv of his crim atty (maybe w crim atty present, I forget) did not give a stmt at that time.
Are you saying you believe G'father SA did this ^, the bbm?
Specifically, do you believe G'father SA, w'in a few days of Chloe's death, all fam still in PR---
---- engaged a crim atty early enough to advise him/rep him at that first LE interview AND
---- engaged civil atty Winkleman to represent him too, for well, whatever?

If so, do you think Winkleman has rep agreemt w parents re tort action/wrongful death, AND
--------------------Winkleman has rep agreemt w SA for well, whatever?

If so, do you see conflict of interest for Winkleman between those two rep agreements?

I don’t know if SA has criminal lawyer from the beginning. But he had a prosecutor and police officer probably telling him to lawyer up. Winkleman probably did, too knowing SA could jeopardize his civil case against cruise line. It’s not a conflict if all clients are advised of potential conflict and all agree that it’s not a problem for any of them.
If it had been a nanny, and not related, family would blame her. If Winkleman told nanny to lawyer up, bc she dropped baby bc she was drunk, or whatever other negligent behavior reason, it could be conflict with parents. In saving nanny’s butt, he’d hurt parents’ case.
I do not believe SA’s present attorney is talking to the press. One statement. That was it. Even that statement was not convincing.
As far as SA hiring Winkleman for civil suit? Maybe. SA would argue I would not (added) have dropped her, never mind, I wouldn’t have picked her up and sat her on the guard rail to look out over the port had I known there was no glass. I’m an emotional veggie now bc of RCCL’s stupidity in leaving tinted window open for me and Chloe to look out and see the world.
SA with family against RCCL makes a stronger statement. Until he is found guilty of a crime, dropping her while playing a game.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I guess that I don't really see any shades of grey here. SA dropped Chloe, an innocent baby, off the deck.

I don't even know why the charges are so light. This man is as guilty as the man who threw the little boy off of the balcony at Mall of America, but he doesn't have the defense of being mentally ill.

ITA!!

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I hate this case. It's disgusting, horrifying and was COMPLETELY preventable. I think Winkleman needs to be charged with some kind of slander for repeatedly spreading lies and misinformation about the location of the CRIME and changing the story. He is a piece of work.

If you read closely, I bet he says SA said. Or mom said... The wall of windows is true. I’d call it a row of windows.
He better have a really good source accusing RCCL with safety violations if that’s true. If windows were safe at time of manufacture, and were not required to be updated by any maritime laws, he’s subject to slander. If I was RCCL, I would give it some serious thought. If subject to interpretation, I’d just leave it alone.

 

[oviedo]

So she was in front of him. He was holding her from behind her. They leaned forward and his body pushed her out of the window totally. Caught him by surprise bc he didn’t have a good grip on her. That’s why he said I DROPPED my child.
OMG.

And that matches the video we can’t find of the person holding his arms outside the window - if she was slipping he would naturally try to grab at her IMO which is better than the alternative scenario that he was dangling her out the window?
JMO
Also I don’t think there is a way for me to mimic this next month short of putting my hands in imaginary positions near the open window ?

 

[they'll get you]

July 9

.....Port Authority spokesman told CNN yet another version of the story, saying Anello sat the child in a window with an open pane, then lost his balance.


It‘s in this pic you can vaguely see a little step/ledge at the bottom of the windows, runs the length, like an architrave does, I remember because I deliberately stepped back and looked down at it.
I remember noticing when I walked up to this windows and gently kicked it, not a stumble but enough for me to look to see what that was. I then stepped up on to it to see further out.

It’s only, say, 4” h x 4” d
What I’m saying is Yes he could’ve stumbled with Chloe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/trav...ies-after-falling-stories-cruise-ship-window/

 

[drama_farmer]

Yeah, it's hard to imagine what would be sufficient. Chloe's mom asked why there were no screens in the windows in an interview.
Parents of toddler who fell from cruise ship share ‘unfathomable’ grief
A potential problem is that having a screen in the window could cause someone to feel falsely secure as screens can pop out if pushed on. Or metal bars/grid could injure someone who bumps their head while looking out. Or a child could be injured by sitting on a rail.

My point is that just about anything could be construed to be a hazard - if used improperly. Winkleman mentioned having warning signs, which may be adequate for the average passenger.

But would a sign have stopped SA from propping Chloe up on the railing? I have my doubts, based on the fact that he had a number of tickets from failing to use his car seat belts and apparently he never read the ship's Guest Conduct Policy or read it and decided to ignore it. Past behavior and all that. All MOO

bbm
And, just consider for a moment how many of those warning signs would be necessary/practical?
How many signs? In front of every window that could open or all windows on the ship?
Where?
Above window, below window, on the sides of the windows? Printed on the windows directly? "If you can't read this the window is open?"

How about printing warnings on the railing below functioning windows. What if someone is standing up against the railing, thereby blocking the sign? Should the sign be printed along the entire length of the railing? "Do not place items you're afraid to lose on railings in front of open windows?"
Should the signs also be in french, spanish, portuguese, russian, farsi, braille?

And what about the other railings? Not just that particular railing, but all railings and all balcony railings?

And then, there's the issue of information overload. Too many signs, and the important messages are "lost in the fog" and become just more visual noise for passengers to decode.

It's easy to say "there should be a sign," but in the real world, it's never so simple. IMO

 

[they'll get you]

I keep going back to the initial reports about this incident - before MW began to obfuscate the facts. A crew member who was interviewed by local authorities said SA was "rocking the child" on the window ledge. Given Winkleman's recent statement that Grandpa looked over the railing before lifting Chloe to the window, then the two of them leaning out for a better view, I think this is what the crew member meant by "rocking". This doesn't sound like SA actually held Chloe outside the window frame, but her head and upper body might have gone beyond the frame as they leaned forward.

RBBM

A crew member would know the difference between the railing and the windows ledge.

 

[al66pine]

G'father SA's Potential/Hypothetical Lawsuit against Cruiseline?
@Midwestmom2019
If you think SA hired Winkleman to file a civil action against cruiseline, what would the cause of action be? Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress/NIED*? And SA's theory would be cruiseline caused NIED to SA for its failure to post signage/warnings on rail? Okay, I realize you are not saying it's a great strategy.

Seems cruiseline's defense would be -- absence of warning/signage was not the proximate cause of his emotional distress, but that his EmoDis, if any, was caused by intervening causes, his own actions in his placing toddler on place on rail extremely close to open window, and/or his failure to securely hold the toddler, leading to his dropping the toddler thru the window, causing her to fall 100+ ft to the deck to her death. jmo
Is there a snowball's chance for SA's hypo claim to prevail?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Negligent infliction of emotional distress - Wikipedia
Link below discusses 'direct victim' and 'indirect victim.' Interesting examples, but quite different from SA's situation.
Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress Claims in California | Oakland Workers Compensation Lawyer | Andrew J. Kopp Attorney at Law

 

[MaryG12]

This whole is extremely tragic, but I have noticed something even worse: this trend of some people doing dangerous things which get them banned from cruise ship lines.

Banned from cruise ships

I see this happening to Chloe's family, which is unfortunate.

 

[they'll get you]

I hate this case. It's disgusting, horrifying and was COMPLETELY preventable. I think Winkleman needs to be charged with some kind of slander for repeatedly spreading lies and misinformation about the location of the CRIME and changing the story. He is a piece of work.

Winkleman’s the reason RCCL have their muscles flexed.
They gave condolences and I also saw they helped with accomodation/transport for the family during the PR inquiries and transport of Chloé back home.

Grandfather Charged Over Toddler's Death on Cruise Ship

 

[sl222]

I keep going back to the initial reports about this incident - before MW began to obfuscate the facts. A crew member who was interviewed by local authorities said SA was "rocking the child" on the window ledge. Given Winkleman's recent statement that Grandpa looked over the railing before lifting Chloe to the window, then the two of them leaning out for a better view, I think this is what the crew member meant by "rocking". This doesn't sound like SA actually held Chloe outside the window frame, but her head and upper body might have gone beyond the frame as they leaned forward.

That makes perfect sense. Her legs and knees would be outside the ledge, that's just inexcusable if that's what happened.

 

[they'll get you]

That whole lounge area is full of beach chairs and tables. It isn't easy to get against a window, is that right? In the photo of the investigators in the area that night, all the lounge chairs are pushed away from the windows for the police to have their work area. There are plenty of them.

Yes. That YouTube vid shows that area perfectly.
Firstly there’s chairs and tables on both sides of the walkway as you first walk out from Windjammers area and it could possibly be a smoking area, then further again it becomes non-smoking, then further again towards the bow past where Chloe was IIRC there’s deck chairs.
The pool area takes up the whole mid section of the ship.
I’ll confirm soon.
I hope I’m of some help.

 

[IceIce9]

This whole is extremely tragic, but I have noticed something even worse: this trend of some people doing dangerous things which get them banned from cruise ship lines.

Banned from cruise ships

I see this happening to Chloe's family, which is unfortunate.

Somehow I can’t imagine being banned from future cruises would be worse than losing their baby in such a horrific way. I doubt if they would ever want to take another cruise anyway as it would be a constant reminder of the tragedy. MOO