IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[oviedo]

Many thanks to oviedo for a Timeline thread on this case

IN-Grandfather charged cruise ship death of Chloe Wiegand MEDIA TIMELINE NO DISCUSSION

I’m working on it chronologically for us - as we all know the early reports changed and I ran across this by @100frods

10ofRodsVerified Anthropologist
Just watching CBS coverage and the one policeman illustrates what he saw GP do after viewing the video. It's chilling.

According to this man, SA was balancing Chloe on the wooden railing, and apparently let his hands go open (having no grip on Chloe at all).

I know the excuse is that he thought there was glass there, but if there had been glass, Chloe's position would have had to be closer to SA, as he couldn't have leaned her forward. MOO.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Last time I checked, NBC Today Show interview with Chloe's parents was still available.

Parents of toddler who died on cruise ship share ‘unfathomable’ grief

 

[sl222]

No. It’s a very telling detail. Perhaps Winkleman had something to do with it bc he’s been griping that SA thought there was glass. His entire theory rests on that fact.

But while we’re talking about glass, last picture I saw CLEARLY shows that the open window from which Chloe fell was not a vertical level. It’s designed and built to angle out from bottom to top. In other words, SA had to lean out twice as far to see activity below. He wasn’t standing straight up looking out. He had to have been bent over to stick his head out of the window. Chloe had no way to fall straight down onto the floor by the windows. Chloe was already hanging/looking outside AT AN ANGLE and didn’t stand a chance of falling straight down back inside the ship. She fell straight down from the bottom edge of the angle of the window, whether window or railing.
Edited to add: that angled design would make it much easier for travelers to view the outside from BEHIND the safety of the glass. The angle mimics the bending over a traveler would have to make to see more of the dock and surrounding areas. IMHO.

It seems like on SA's 3rd look out of the window, which would have been Chloe's 2nd look, when he seated her on the rail, this put her to easily be at a perilous angle where she could easily fall, legs first. Her feet or legs would have been possibly out of the window when she was seated on the rail.

There are multiple videos from different angles; sounds like Mr. W. (attorney) has only shown one of them to the media. And it has to be with permission from the family which is odd to me unless they really think it exonerates him. Just him saying it exonerates him (media spin); it probably will just make it even worse. The PR prosecutors have maintained they have a solid case and are doing their duty to Chloe (and all helpless children hoisted by adults to a dangerous place). Why would they prosecute someone in a family tragedy if there wasn't a REALLY good reason and a really strong case; I respect the PR prosecutors.

If that's a direct quote, "I just dropped my child. I thought there was glass. I thought there was glass," - first he says the truth, he dropped her. No other family is around so he's not talking to people who know her name. So it's more like a cry for help except knowing it's too late for any help. And then 2x he says his excuse. And this is supposedly after he has looked out and seen her entire fall? He most likely screamed first seeing the fall. (What the news hasn't said often but was reported is that Chloe screamed, in addition to everyone else they did report this about. I don't have the link but we've posted it here; it was probably in the DM early on, not sure. The point of mentioning that being her awareness, suffering, and fear. I think it will be mentioned if there is a trial.)

If someone's child fell off of a ship you might think the first thing they would say is the child's name, screaming after her. They would also maybe scream, "My child fell out the window!" But he knew he caused the fall so in the immediately outcry he said "I dropped my child." (opinion only here)

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

At about the same time that the early Websleuths' discussions were shut down, this thread on Cruise Critic also disappeared. Similarly to the use of social media here, the comments can't be taken as fact, but there are posts from people who were on Freedom of the Seas at the time of the incident. Worthwhile reading if you have time. Thank you, sl222, for posting the Cruise Critic link here

Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

 

[sl222]

In that video where an investigator or officer is demonstrating what happened - it could be that his final gesture which looks like an intentional letting go is not what the GF did but him saying, "and that's when she fell." That part may not be part of what the GF did leading up to the fall.

Even if someone ever leaked the videos, and it's hard to imagine that happening, they would be immediately shut down on any website.

I agree there has probably been a lot of pressure to shut down even discussions of this.

You'd think the family would be exhausted since the beginning and just want to handle this quietly. IMO they are not responsible for going to bat for the GF. I doubt they are all so uniformly supportive of him anyway. Like another person said, over time, a huge amount of different feelings including anger can come out. How can they grieve if they're consumed with exonerating the GF?

In the DM video of the GF and GM at the airport when they were filmed arriving back from PR, the GM looks very exasperated at whatever the GF is saying to her.

 

[Gardenista]

At about the same time that the early Websleuths' discussions were shut down, this thread on Cruise Critic also disappeared. Similarly to the use of social media here, the comments can't be taken as fact, but there are posts from people who were on Freedom of the Seas at the time of the incident. Worthwhile reading if you have time. Thank you, sl222, for posting the Cruise Critic link here

Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

What page do the comments start appearing? I've skimmed thru 10 pages and haven't seen any yet

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

What page do the comments start appearing? I've skimmed thru 10 pages and haven't seen any yet

Cruise Critic is a cruise-related message board, so all of the posts are "comments" by members who are generally frequent cruisers. DH and I were active on the site at one time (Princess board) but no longer participate.

 

[sl222]

... But while we’re talking about glass, last picture I saw CLEARLY shows that the open window from which Chloe fell was not a vertical level. It’s designed and built to angle out from bottom to top. In other words, SA had to lean out twice as far to see activity below. He wasn’t standing straight up looking out. He had to have been bent over to stick his head out of the window. Chloe had no way to fall straight down onto the floor by the windows. Chloe was already hanging/looking outside AT AN ANGLE and didn’t stand a chance of falling straight down back inside the ship. She fell straight down from the bottom edge of the angle of the window, whether window or railing.
Edited to add: that angled design would make it much easier for travelers to view the outside from BEHIND the safety of the glass. The angle mimics the bending over a traveler would have to make to see more of the dock and surrounding areas. IMHO.

Great post, Midwestmom2019, what an important point.

 

[oviedo]

No. It’s a very telling detail. Perhaps Winkleman had something to do with it bc he’s been griping that SA thought there was glass. His entire theory rests on that fact.

But while we’re talking about glass, last picture I saw CLEARLY shows that the open window from which Chloe fell was not a vertical level. It’s designed and built to angle out from bottom to top. In other words, SA had to lean out twice as far to see activity below. He wasn’t standing straight up looking out. He had to have been bent over to stick his head out of the window. Chloe had no way to fall straight down onto the floor by the windows. Chloe was already hanging/looking outside AT AN ANGLE and didn’t stand a chance of falling straight down back inside the ship. She fell straight down from the bottom edge of the angle of the window, whether window or railing.
Edited to add: that angled design would make it much easier for travelers to view the outside from BEHIND the safety of the glass. The angle mimics the bending over a traveler would have to make to see more of the dock and surrounding areas. IMHO.

And this is why I think she was held outside of the window and he dropped her
JMO

 

[oviedo]

IN-Grandfather charged cruise ship death of Chloe Wiegand MEDIA TIMELINE NO DISCUSSION
I’ve updated the media thread so please feel free to contribute MSM - thanks

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

And this is why I think she was held outside of the window and he dropped her
JMO

Just how in the world being completely serious could that have been accidental? She supposedly meant SO MUCH to him. I just do not see how that was accidental. JMOO.

 

[they'll get you]

This s a promotional video. I don’t think it’s taken the day of the fall.

True. I plucked it off YouTube at poster’s request.

 

[LietKynes]

That doesn't seem to be an issue as of now. It's "He wanted to get a better view"."I think it's pretty obvious why they leaned forward, and that would be so that you could get a better view," Winkleman said."
Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

bolding mine
Agreed.

Well that's a safe and general statement that could apply to anyone --except a grandpa in charge of an energetic toddler.
What happened to her wanting to 'bang on the glass' , MW ?

Sorry --- but at this time anything the lawyer says is suspicious to me.
Maybe not that sorry.

He's spin doctor and imo that may possibly include fabrication.
I think Monsieur Winkleman may occasionally lie and misrepresent people when he hopes it's to his advantage.
And if he is offended by that-- fine.
He can join WS and argue it out w/all of us right now !

 

[oviedo]

bolding mine
Agreed.

Well that's a safe and general statement that could apply to anyone --except a grandpa in charge of an energetic toddler.
What happened to her wanting to 'bang on the glass' , MW ?

Sorry --- but at this time anything the lawyer says is suspicious to me.
Maybe not that sorry.

He's spin doctor and imo that may possibly include fabrication.
I think Monsieur Winkleman may occasionally lie and misrepresent people when he hopes it's to his advantage.
And if he is offended by that-- fine.
He can join WS and argue it out w/all of us right now !

Yes I think we are seeing backpedaling by the lawyer and still no lawsuit filed yet that I can find - I’m certain he will announce it IMO

 

[they'll get you]

I would ask the attorney "If Chloe had fallen back from the railing and landed at grandpa's feet but died from her injuries, who would be responsible for Chloe's death?"

Imagine signage on all floors at 3’ apart saying ‘no sitting on these stair railings’ and on coffee cups saying ‘contents may be hot and third degree burns may occur’

I can see many places where signs can be put including at the dessert bar warning diabetics in 5 different languages.

IIRC there are signs around the pool of no diving no running as surface may be wet and slippery.

 

[Kittybunny]

BBM So, the fact that this can be seen quite clearly by reasonable humans, how does one try to believe SA didn't realize the window was open?

I personally can't. The only explanation I would be willing to consider would be that perhaps he had some sort of visual impairment or condition that would cause him to be unable to distinguish colors. And it might require him to be hard of hearing and feeling of a possible breeze. A heck of a thing - if that was the case, which, given his attorney's propensity to throw every excuse and even outright lies out there to cover up the horrible truth, we would have heard about for sure by now.

 

[Kittybunny]

I personally can't. The only explanation I would be willing to consider would be that perhaps he had some sort of visual impairment or condition that would cause him to be unable to distinguish colors. And it might require him to be hard of hearing and feeling of a possible breeze. A heck of a thing - if that was the case, given his attorney's propensity to throw every excuse and even outright lies out there to cover up the horrible truth, we would have heard about for sure by now.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

bolding mine
Agreed.

Well that's a safe and general statement that could apply to anyone --except a grandpa in charge of an energetic toddler.
What happened to her wanting to 'bang on the glass' , MW ?

Sorry --- but at this time anything the lawyer says is suspicious to me.
Maybe not that sorry.

He's spin doctor and imo that may possibly include fabrication.
I think Monsieur Winkleman may occasionally lie and misrepresent people when he hopes it's to his advantage.
And if he is offended by that-- fine.
He can join WS and argue it out w/all of us right now !

Ya think?! Winkleman probably sees his huge payday fading fast and is trying to find something - anything - that might sit well with a jury. I hope and pray that jurors clearly see through this lame façade.

 

[they'll get you]

Ya think?! Winkleman probably sees his huge payday fading fast and is trying to find something - anything - that might sit well with a jury. I hope and pray that jurors clearly see through this lame façade.

THIS !!

 

[Midwestmom2019]

At about the same time that the early Websleuths' discussions were shut down, this thread on Cruise Critic also disappeared. Similarly to the use of social media here, the comments can't be taken as fact, but there are posts from people who were on Freedom of the Seas at the time of the incident. Worthwhile reading if you have time. Thank you, sl222, for posting the Cruise Critic link here

Family's statement on toddler's cruise death

I’ve read about half of the 29 pages, after Amazon high jacked the site...
2 things that WS hadn’t talked about:
Mom was prosecutor now a judge?
Graphic:
Someone posted the speed at which the child hit the concrete
Graphic:
Based on average weight of 1.5 year old and distance of fall
Graphic:
70 MPH.