IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[GoneGoldfishin']

DBM double post

 

[Kittybunny]

At some point he will get a psych eval, no doubt. And I think that it will show that he is in the early stages of some type of dementia. He appears forgetful, illogical, makes poor decisions and seems to have a poor memory. Plus repeats phrases. I couldn't hazard a guess as to what type of dementia, there are many types, but he seems to have all of the early markers. People in the early stages are often still working. What he did with Chloe makes absolutely no sense so this is the only explanation that I can see. I've had some first-hand experience with a family member and I see some similarities here.

I realize he looks older in his appearance but he's only 51! At what age does dementia set in or how old is your relative?

Sorry, he does have a bad track record for bad decision making, but that, IMO, has nothing to do with dementia, only recklessness. He repeats phrases and forgets details because he's trying to spin a narrative that is not the truth, so he has to work to be convincing.

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

I've never understood the venom in this case. I absolutely believe this was not intentional. Do we just want the guy in jail because he followed the advice of his attorney to blame RCCL? Maybe he's a one in a million special kind of stupid? I'm terrified of heights myself. I'm especially terrified of my children around any heights. I'd never in a million years hold them up to a window on a ship like that. I practically need a xanax for them to walk on anything where they could even potentially hit the ground below or water below.

So many other people just walk around assuming all is safe and well. I can definitely see someone holding a child up to look out a window and it turning into a freak accident. I've always assumed they had some more evidence to be prosecuting him criminally. But it's not looking like that. I just don't get what seems to be so much dislike for this man though as if he really did it on purpose.

And he has some tickets? That means C's parent's were stupid to let him watch her on a cruise ship? If any of my parents or in laws have any tickets I would have no idea. How would I know unless I was there when it happened or they went out of their way to let me know they'd gotten a ticket for not wearing their seatbelt?

BBM
But it wasn't an accident. It's not like he was walking by and tripped and she flew out a nearby open window. He intentionally put her in a dangerous situation that a reasonable person would not, where a logical expected outcome would be injury or death. That is why he is being charged. Moo.

 

[Montrealaise]

My understanding is that it was Chloe's father's parents, and Chloe's mother's mother and her husband SA. And Chloe's older brother. I don't know if Chloe's older brother is technically her half brother, because the parents have been married about 5-6 years. And the older brother is older than that.

I've read that the older brother is Chloe's half-brother (from her dad's previous relationship) and also that there's another child. One local news article mentioned the family has three children and the family's Go Fnd Me page refers to Chloe's siblings (in the plural).

 

[LietKynes]

At some point he will get a psych eval, no doubt. And I think that it will show that he is in the early stages of some type of dementia. He appears forgetful, illogical, makes poor decisions and seems to have a poor memory. Plus repeats phrases. I couldn't hazard a guess as to what type of dementia, there are many types, but he seems to have all of the early markers. People in the early stages are often still working. What he did with Chloe makes absolutely no sense so this is the only explanation that I can see. I've had some first-hand experience with a family member and I see some similarities here.

Respectfully disagree.


It appears that G-pa is forgetting what he's been told to say by his lawyer and/or the parents.
And if he has early onset dementia the lawyer certainly would have pulled that out of his magician's hat , along with a bunny.
As in, "See ? Look what problems G-pa has now ! If the poor man isn't already afflicted with color blindness , and a ship that has disappearing glass with a hidden hole in the windows (yes that was touted earlier on) -- what more can RCCL do to him ? Of course he should be released ! Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, do what this man's family wants. Never mind if it's the right thing to do !!"

The parents face losing their lawsuit if G-pa is charged and faces fines/ jail time.
And they're not about to let that happen.

The truth is glaringly obvious and so sad !!!
It's no longer about Chloe and her short little life, if it ever was.
The spotlight is now firmly fixed on G-pa and his 'problems'.

"Neurocognitive symptoms like memory impairment, reduced executive function, lack of judgement and language difficulties are hall-marks of dementia. Symptoms vary over time and with the type of dementia, comorbid diseases, medication, environment and care provided. Symptoms can separately or in combination contribute to criminal behaviour and actions." (From a study on crime and dementia in elderly patients, that also looks at co-morbidity with alcohol.)

bolding mine

Interesting and I'd ask for a link but will take your post as stated.

Especially the part about "criminal behavior and actions". I do think S.A. committed a crime and that it was more than just negligent homicide --which in itself is egregious enough !

But since he refused the breathalyzer, it'd appear he was hiding something.
Think about it--- if a person takes a drink or two or three, and gets into their car and later kills someone-- they'd be facing more than neg. hom.

Second bolded : 51 years old is hardly what I'd call elderly.
So if the possibility of dementia is based on a study of the elderly ; that may not apply in S.A.'s case. Imo.

Sorry to hear about your family member.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

At some point he will get a psych eval, no doubt. And I think that it will show that he is in the early stages of some type of dementia. He appears forgetful, illogical, makes poor decisions and seems to have a poor memory. Plus repeats phrases. I couldn't hazard a guess as to what type of dementia, there are many types, but he seems to have all of the early markers. People in the early stages are often still working. What he did with Chloe makes absolutely no sense so this is the only explanation that I can see. I've had some first-hand experience with a family member and I see some similarities here.

Good post... What if you are right?

I'm sorry for your family member.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

View Chloe Wiegand's Obituary on kpcnews.com and share memories

Chloe's obituary indicates she has one sibling, her brother, Wyatt Amm, who was with the family on the cruise. Obituary doesn't mention another sibling.

...Left to cherish Chloe's memory are her parents, Alan and Kimberly and brother, Wyatt Amm, all of Granger; maternal grandparents, Salvatore and Patti Anello, of Niles, Michigan, and Scott and Annie Schultz, of Zelienople, Pennsylvania; and paternal grandparents, Thomas and Mary Ann Wiegand, of Angola, Indiana.

She is survived by her aunts and uncles, Shannon and Hayden Schultz, Joseph and Tammy Wiegand, and Robert and Ann Antos; and great-aunt, Frances Holladay.

Chloe is also survived by her loving great-grandmother, Nola Schultz...

 

[MsFacetious]

I've read that the older brother is Chloe's half-brother (from her dad's previous relationship) and also that there's another child. One local news article mentioned the family has three children and the family's Go Fnd Me page refers to Chloe's siblings (in the plural).

Chloe’s obituary lists one brother who doesn’t share her last name. Likely a maternal half sibling.

The mention of “siblings” likely refers to any future siblings because there was only the boy and the girl.

 

[justice4allnow]

I realize he looks older in his appearance but he's only 51! At what age does dementia set in or how old is your relative?

Sorry, he does have a bad track record for bad decision making, but that, IMO, has nothing to do with dementia, only recklessness. He repeats phrases and forgets details because he's trying to spin a narrative that is not the truth, so he has to work to be convincing.

This would be a case of early onset, but it's certainly not unheard of. My relative is older, 70, but the changes began at 60. The early stage included balance issues, the odd trick of repeating phrases at the end of sentences and doing things that just didn't make sense-poor decision-making, if you will. that would be the executive functioning. I began researching dementia and talking to neurologists and other family members, and yes, found people who had early onset. What Sam did was so outrageous, so irrational, that would seem to be the only explanation to me. And the way he attempts to explain it makes no sense. A fall of 150 feet takes 3 seconds, yet he had time to realize that he no longer had her in his arms, 'search on the floor', then look out and watch her fall. And his changing story, that he can't even remember what he has said earlier. Of corse, I may be wrong, but this is my intuitive feeling in watching him and listening to him.

 

[IceIce9]

IMO, the simplest answer is usually the one that turns out to be true.

Not early onset dementia, nor color deficiency, nor neuropathy, nor diabetes, nor mental impairments.

He simply disregarded common sense, and using poor judgement held Chloe outside the window, or sat her in the window with her center of gravity outside the window. He lost his grip on her and she fell.

 

[justice4allnow]

IMO, the simplest answer is usually the one that turns out to be true.

Not early onset dementia, nor color deficiency, nor neuropathy, nor diabetes, nor mental impairments.

He simply disregarded common sense, and using poor judgement held Chloe outside the window, or sat her in the window with her center of gravity outside the window. He lost his grip on her and she fell.

And you are probably right. What he did was just so out of the norm of any behavior that I have seen, that I suppose my first reaction was that he must be demented. I could simply never conceive of putting anyone, much less a TODDLER, in danger like this, unless there was either an intention to hurt the person (which I don't think he had) or a brain disorder of some kind. But of course many people show very poor judgement who do not have dementia. And if alcohol was involved, he was impaired by that. Thank you, everyone, for letting me think through this aloud. I know it's a very sensitive subject when an innocent little one loses their life. And I am certainly not trying to defend his behavior.

 

[justice4allnow]

Respectfully disagree.


It appears that G-pa is forgetting what he's been told to say by his lawyer and/or the parents.
And if he has early onset dementia the lawyer certainly would have pulled that out of his magician's hat , along with a bunny.
As in, "See ? Look what problems G-pa has now ! If the poor man isn't already afflicted with color blindness , and a ship that has disappearing glass with a hidden hole in the windows (yes that was touted earlier on) -- what more can RCCL do to him ? Of course he should be released ! Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, do what this man's family wants. Never mind if it's the right thing to do !!"

The parents face losing their lawsuit if G-pa is charged and faces fines/ jail time.
And they're not about to let that happen.

The truth is glaringly obvious and so sad !!!
It's no longer about Chloe and her short little life, if it ever was.
The spotlight is now firmly fixed on G-pa and his 'problems'.


bolding mine

Interesting and I'd ask for a link but will take your post as stated.

Especially the part about "criminal behavior and actions". I do think S.A. committed a crime and that it was more than just negligent homicide --which in itself is egregious enough !

But since he refused the breathalyzer, it'd appear he was hiding something.
Think about it--- if a person takes a drink or two or three, and gets into their car and later kills someone-- they'd be facing more than neg. hom.

Second bolded : 51 years old is hardly what I'd call elderly.
So if the possibility of dementia is based on a study of the elderly ; that may not apply in S.A.'s case. Imo.

Sorry to hear about your family member.

I'm a new member so don't know yet how to post links and the like, but it was on a site called BMC Geriatrics and entitled "Dementia and Cognitive Disorders in a Forensic Psychiatric Examination." Study was out of Sweden. And I am not trying to make excuses for him in any way, just trying to make sense out of a series of acts which are incomprehensible to me. I will never understand what Sam did to Chloe.

 

[sl222]

If someone encouraged him to go on television, IMO that was cruel to subject him to; he was not in any state to be subject to scrutiny. He wasn't confident in his explanation and could only repeat himself like a mantra because he could not be forthright (except when he talked about being colorblind). Some people with sharp minds and high IQs repeat themselves for emphasis habitually and because they don't think other people are really listening. With any mental agility testing he wouldn't be mentally or emotionally the same as he was before this happened. I hope he's getting psychiatric help already but as far as the interview, it doesn't look like he's doing well.

He clearly floundered especially on the question of who he blames. There are so many people involved in trying to show that he was not at fault (family and attorneys giving him advice) that it's like too many cooks and it's not helping. I think he blames himself. MOO.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

If someone encouraged him to go on television, IMO that was cruel to subject him to; he was not in any state to be subject to scrutiny. He wasn't confident in his explanation and could only repeat himself like a mantra because he could not be forthright (except when he talked about being colorblind). Some people with sharp minds and high IQs repeat themselves for emphasis habitually and because they don't think other people are really listening. With any mental agility testing he wouldn't be mentally or emotionally the same as he was before this happened. I hope he's getting psychiatric help already but as far as the interview, it doesn't look like he's doing well.

He clearly floundered especially on the question of who he blames. There are so many people involved in trying to show that he was not at fault (family and attorneys giving him advice) that it's like too many cooks and it's not helping. I think he blames himself. MOO.

SA has been instructed by the family and their ship-chasing lawyer to blame RCCL. According to them, the ship is at fault for having tinted windows, having windows that open, and not having signage that Grandpa needed to make sure he didn't put Chloe on the railing. Thousands of passengers sail on Royal Caribbean every year, and this sort of thing just doesn't happen. SA said repeatedly: "They need to fix the boat. I just want them to fix the boat". The ship doesn't need to be fixed because it ain't broken. That said, "You can't fix stupid", and that's what we have here.

 

[LietKynes]

I'm a new member so don't know yet how to post links and the like, but it was on a site called BMC Geriatrics and entitled "Dementia and Cognitive Disorders in a Forensic Psychiatric Examination." Study was out of Sweden. And I am not trying to make excuses for him in any way, just trying to make sense out of a series of acts which are incomprehensible to me. I will never understand what Sam did to Chloe.

Thank you for clarifying.

I was disagreeing with the notion that S.A might try to use yet another excuse -- not necessarily with your comment.
I've enjoyed reading your posts, and am sorry for your relative.

 

[mickey2942]

Cognitive decline starts at over age 50! Just saying.

That being said, the defense in this case has an uphill battle, and if SA takes a plea, that will affect the civil lawsuit.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Also in regards to criminal guilt, even if there had been a window there and she 'fell in front' on to the floor as SA described thought happened, that itself could have been fatal. If she went legs first with her legs between the sill and the railing she could have died from getting an rabbit punch on the back of her head from the railing while if she would have fallen between the railing going rear-first with her folded that too could have resulted in a fatal head injury. Holding an 18 month old at height with only arm is inherently dangerous, which whether the window was open or closed doesn't change it from being dangerous.

 

[justbreathe]

Exactly. I was expecting them to say colorblind a long time ago. But in the 4 months, almost 5, they've never said it until now. I'm sure he has had all kinds of medical testing in these months to determine any kind of contributing factor. 51 is young. How many 51 year olds or even 61 year olds are so impaired. I'm surprised the interviewer didn't ask him if he had had anything at all to drink.

This interview is also edited. But even so, a statement analysis expert would rip it to shreds and probably will in the next day or so. I'll be looking for that. (I hope it's okay to mention that here. I joined WS specifically to talk about this case after following this and another one.)

It sounds like IF he really believed there was glass that despite his continually reaching for and not finding any, he still held to the idea that it must be there? He didn't have a lot of time to observe the wall of windows if coming directly from the pool area. But still a clear no-glass is hard to miss. If he thought that some windows were tinted and some clear, still, he had plenty of time to realize this one was open if he was RIGHT IN FRONT of it for 30 seconds. This is a stupid excuse. The man has no backbone whatsoever. He should just admit what he really did and stop floundering around helplessly seeking pity for what HE went through. He is completely unconvincing in all of his statements for good reason. I would think that the police officer father can already tell this.

I agree about the father. I think at some point he will get really angry that this was allowed to happen and that his wife basically sided with his daughter’s killer.

 

[justbreathe]

Exactly. I was expecting them to say colorblind a long time ago. But in the 4 months, almost 5, they've never said it until now. I'm sure he has had all kinds of medical testing in these months to determine any kind of contributing factor. 51 is young. How many 51 year olds or even 61 year olds are so impaired. I'm surprised the interviewer didn't ask him if he had had anything at all to drink.

This interview is also edited. But even so, a statement analysis expert would rip it to shreds and probably will in the next day or so. I'll be looking for that. (I hope it's okay to mention that here. I joined WS specifically to talk about this case after following this and another one.)

It sounds like IF he really believed there was glass that despite his continually reaching for and not finding any, he still held to the idea that it must be there? He didn't have a lot of time to observe the wall of windows if coming directly from the pool area. But still a clear no-glass is hard to miss. If he thought that some windows were tinted and some clear, still, he had plenty of time to realize this one was open if he was RIGHT IN FRONT of it for 30 seconds. This is a stupid excuse. The man has no backbone whatsoever. He should just admit what he really did and stop floundering around helplessly seeking pity for what HE went through. He is completely unconvincing in all of his statements for good reason. I would think that the police officer father can already tell this.

And I’ve never really heard of someone making a mistake about glass being there when it wasn’t. Usually people walk into glass doors, or throw their cup into their car window because they expect the glass to *not* be there. Because it is clear.

This is the first reversal -“I thought there *would* be glass” story I think I have ever heard.

 

[justbreathe]

I think many people would do something like that. I've seen parents leave their child unattended in cars, leave liquor or medicine cabinets unlocked allowing children access to danger, leave cleaning supplies unlocked in a cupboard accessible to young children, and even leave illegal substances right out on the coffee table with children around.
I have known parents to speed while driving with children in their car, drive under the influence with their children, and leave young children at home unattended for hours.

It happens every day, everywhere around the world.

So I really don't find it hard to believe that someone would lift up their child to bang on the glass on a window that is eleven stories high.

Imo

What kind of parents you hanging around with, yo? Haha