IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #4

[Safeguard]

Wow... how true... in this case and this one alone, you are absolutely right, IMO.
A stranger would have protected her more than her own GF.... As true as that is, it’s also just as scary. That poor child

Sadly, in a lot of the cases we see here, many littles would have been safer with strangers.

 

[BeachSky]

#20 on the civil suit states, “upon reaching the wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up”. Did anyone notice SA conversing with Chloe when she reached the glass? If she asked before SA got there, then why didn’t he immediately pick her up? Is this coming from SA’s account? Who knows. Maybe she asked when he was leaning out.
It seemed like he ignored Chloe when he first reached the window area and leaned out.

“ upon reaching the wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up.”
BBM
When I hear that - it’s like the blame is being shifted to her.
Like he wanted to indulge her.
How could he deny her.
Btw, it was her idea!
You can tell Wink has written this script
“ WALL of glass”
Sold wall!
No openings!
Her idea!
I thought there was glass!


MOO

 

[LietKynes]

“ upon reaching the wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up.”
BBM
When I hear that - it’s like the blame is being shifted to her.
Like he wanted to indulge her.
How could he deny her.
Btw, it was her idea!
You can tell Wink has written this script
“ WALL of glass”
Sold wall!
No openings!
Her idea!
I thought there was glass!


MOO

Winkleman should be ashamed of himself for blaming this baby !
And apparently it was a solid wall of glass with a hidden hole in it. Smdh.
This goes far beyond exaggeration.
Btw- my parents were more careful with their grands than with us.I trust them completely. And neither of them would've dreamed of purposefully putting myself or siblings in danger when we were small.

 

[Safeguard]

As my ( second to the) last post of the evening, I'd like to apologize to those who felt it necessary to comment on the abnormal size/shape and or appearance of Chloe's head. I'm sure it has great relevance to this case. (Of which I'm unaware). No doubt in the days to come, her head will factor greatly in the trial.

I confess my total ignorance as to how anything about Chloe's size, shape, possible disabilities, or attractiveness of her attire, plays a role in her demise.

Maybe she loved her sun hat, ( that someone here called "stupid"). She wore it a lot. And wore it to Heaven after all.

 

[Safeguard]

I didn't intend to shout. I was just emphasizing. I do wonder if she was disabled, because that may or may not have been a factor in the situation that transpired. JMOO

Uh huh. Bolding is the usual form of emphasizing. Her head was NOT a factor in the "situation". Hope that helps.

 

[Kindred]

I'm working on getting screen shots and highlighting where exactly Chloe is in the window at what point after being lifted, but he does shift her from a seated position on the rail to what appears to be a standing position on the actual lip of the window. The sequence as I can see it goes as follows:

• The pair approaches the window. Just before they reach it a man seats himself at the bar partially obscuring the rearview. Chloe is on the floor to SA's right as he leans out.
• SA turns to Chloe and lifts her up and over the rail.
• SA seats Chloe on his right side on the rail. She is still behind the pipe or whatever that causes the barrier so we can't see them, but if you look by his right shoulder you can see part of her white hat moving. He leans forward but to the left side, his right arm remains bent back but around Chloe. Chloe can't be seen from the rearview because of the man at the bar but SA's leaning is visible.
• SA shifts her, moving her from the seated position on his right to a STANDING position on his left in what appears to be the window frame. This is when she becomes clearly visible in the behind video, and the distance between her little body and his is almost measurable (why I think she is in the window frame itself and not standing on the rail). In the side video this is when SA begins the rocking back and forth.
• Chloe disappears from the frame (is dropped/falls)

As I said I'm working on grabbing screenshots and adding markings to show what exactly I am seeing. Should have those in a bit

 

[SouthAussie]

I wish the video was clearer. The railing is relevant IMO because the civil lawsuit complaint states:
20. Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games. Mr. Anello then lifted Chloe up onto the railing and held Chloe while she leaned forward to bang on the glass that Mr. Anello and Chloe thought to be in front of them. As Chloe leaned forward, however, there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane and down approximately 150 feet below onto the Pier in San Juan, resulting in her death.
Complaint - Wiegand vs Royal Caribbean Cruises LTD - LMAW, PA
And reporter David B also reported SA sat Chloe on the railing:
They walk over to the wall of windows where Anello appears to look over the railing, through the open window. Anello picks Chloe up and stands her up on the railing, and they appear to lean over together looking out over the port.

Then he re-adjusts and sits Chloe on the railing, still facing the port. They lean over again and she disappears from the frame.
Harrowing surveillance video captures 1-year-old's fatal fall off cruise ship

So IMO the railing plays an important role in determining what happened, both in the criminal case and the civil case. If what's being claimed is a lie then the reporter will have damaged his credibility. But the attorney will be risking his license to practice law.

Yes, the railing is important ... for a couple of reasons. And neither of them are going to do SA and his defense any good. imo

1. Guest conduct policy clearly states no sitting/standing/laying on or across any railings - the guest conduct policy being part of the ticketed passenger contract

2. The railing is a mandated 42" above deck, as per the law. A height which Congress has agreed will give all people safety from falling overboard

 

[JulieBEMT]

Edited as I have NO idea how this post showed up under my name. Not information I posted.

 

[Lilibet]

I confess my total ignorance as to how anything about Chloe's size, shape, possible disabilities, or attractiveness of her attire, plays a role in her demise.

The random observation about the size of Chloe’s head was not meant as an insult @Safeguard. No one thinks it actually played a role in her demise, but we do discuss random details that occur to us on every thread I’ve ever been on. Even though you believe it was insulting, and were hurt by the comment, you have been told that it wasn’t meant that way. Yes, sometimes people cross a line, but this wasn’t it. Giving members the benefit of the doubt is a nice gift we can all give each other.

 

[fabvab]

But those pics in the civil suit are of railings around an open air deck with no ceiling. I wouldn’t call them windows.

 

[JulieBEMT]

Freedom of the Seas is a "Freedom Class" ship, and has two "sisters:" Liberty and Independence of the Seas. The next class down is "Voyager Class." These ships are a bit smaller (they hold about 500 fewer passengers) than Freedom, but have the same basic layout and design. In all, I've been on Freedom and Voyager class ships 11 times. Because of this, I knew they were all lying from the start. First, when they continually called it a "children's play area," and then when he said he didn't know the window was open. I knew there was no way any normal adult would not know that window was open. I suspect that's why I've been so interested in this case all along.

Based on the interviews I've seen from Winkleman, I don't believe he has ever stepped foot on one of these ships. He seems to have no understanding of the area, the windows, the tint on the glass or the wind and noise that comes through these open windows. If he did, he would/should have proceeded much differently. As others have said, I believe he sought out this family in their time of grief, and convinced them that someone else was to blame - the cruise line. In his very first press conference, he came right out and said that all he does is sue cruise lines! His entire practice exists simply to extort money from the deepest pockets possible. I almost choked watching a more recent press conference when he managed to say with a straight face that the railing should have had signs on it that said no sitting or standing on railing. Seriously!?!?

There has been much discussion about the lack of empathy for the parents. While I cannot begin to imagine their pain, most of my empathy evaporated when they hired MW less than 24 hours after the death of their child and then decided to go on a media tour in an attempt to gain public sympathy for their civil case.

IMHO, in order to effectively defend against the civil case, all the RCCL lawyers need to do is to take the jury to the exact location of the incident and let them see/feel for themselves. Case dismissed.

 

[fabvab]

DBM

 

[Safeguard]

The random observation about the size of Chloe’s head was not meant as an insult @Safeguard. No one thinks it actually played a role in her demise, but we do discuss random details that occur to us on every thread I’ve ever been on. Even though you believe it was insulting, and were hurt by the comment, you have been told that it wasn’t meant that way. Yes, sometimes people cross a line, but this wasn’t it. Giving members the benefit of the doubt is a nice gift we can all give each other.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this. There is no need insinuate the child was deformed, disabled, or call her appearance in to question. Period.

 

[they'll get you]

Jul 9, 2019
Attorney Michael Winkleman says Chloe was with her grandfather at the ship's water park. He said the child's grandfather did not dangle or drop her, but that she fell because an open glass pane wasn't properly secured.
Attorney says Indiana toddler died after after falling from open window on cruise ship

It’s amazing how Winkleman was refuting the fact waayyy back then.

 

[Safeguard]

Winkleman should be ashamed of himself for blaming this baby !

He's not the only one.
Some people would have you believe her own head size factored in!

an open glass pane wasn't properly secured

excuse me.. WHAT?
What does that sentence even mean exactly?

 

[sl222]

This was a misunderstanding IMO. A lot of times posters are referring to previously discussed matters so they assume that their meaning is understood, and it was understood by a lot of people. In this case; the only issue being referred to was whether there were any ongoing medical issues. And the only reason that was being discussed was questions of whether there was any motive involved. I don't want to be jumped on, I am trying to clarify what others were saying. I knew what they meant; it was not saying anything negative about this child. Trying to clear up the misunderstanding.

 

[al66pine]

Veracity of Complaint's Allegation re ASTM F2006 - 17
Paragraph 26 identifies safety standard ASTM F2006 - 17. The notes, issued w standard itself state ---
--- it is intended "to address risk of injury and death associated with accidental falls through open windows by children five years old and younger." *
Standard does not to apply to circumstances of this case in which death was caused by an adult holding toddler outside the window,
--- it applies to windows installed in "multiple family apartment buildings." **
Standard does not apply to ships.
Paragraph 27 states "...Defendant knew or should have known of the industry standard
set forth by above ASTM standards, yet Defendant’s vessel was not in compliance."

Count I. General Negligence, paragraphs 34 and 35 allege cruiseline breached its duty of care in various ways and specifically in sub (i) by "Failure to incorporate applicable standards, including the ASTM and/or other industry standards..."

Since that particular ASTM standard ---
---applies to accidental falls by 5 yr olds and younger
---does not apply to ships,
RCCL's failure to comply w that standard was not a breach of duty of care, per para 35(i).

IOW, RCCL's 'failure to comply' w that std is not relevant, not negligent. jmo

-------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Scope
* 1.1 This safety specification establishes requirements for devices intended to address the risk of injury and death associated with accidental falls through open windows by children five years old and younger...."
** 1.3 This safety specification applies only to devices intended to be applied to windows installed at heights of more than 75 ft 7 (23 m) above ground level in multiple family dwelling buildings...."
^ from ASTM F2006 - 17 Standard Safety Specification for Window Fall Prevention Devices for Non-Emergency Escape (Egress) and Rescue (Ingress) Windows bbm

 

[Lilibet]

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this. There is no need insinuate the child was deformed, disabled, or call her appearance in to question. Period.

He's not the only one.
Some people would have you believe her own head size factored in!

I think you’ve made your point. Can the subject be dropped now? No one is talking about this anymore.

 

[LietKynes]

from they'll get you :

an open glass pane wasn't properly secured ...

excuse me.. WHAT?
What does that sentence even mean exactly?

I think the poster was quoting directly from the link.

Winkleman has said a variety of excuses as to why Chloe died.
Notice I don't say 'fell' as it appears she was dropped. That part isn't disputable.
But Winkleman originally said there were open panes of glass at the level of a toddler and that Chloe simply fell through.
later he emphasized a 'hidden hole' in the windows.

There have been so many iterations that a person loses count.
Winkleman also said the windows were located in the child's play area.
Which they are not.

 

[LietKynes]

The part that's the most chilling in the video is when SA leans his head outside of the window and looks downward.
As if he was gauging the distance to the concrete dock below.

Purposeful, and not in the least 'confused and befuddled'.... " I thought there was glass..." He said in the video, slapping his knee several times for emphasis.